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About Export-Import Bank of the United States
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\n\n![](\"https://assets.fireside.fm/file/fireside-images/podcasts/images/d/d61cedee-227d-47c8-8d74-3407972d4afc/guests/f/f80d7c35-a7c8-48d6-aba5-c1cbb5a9cd21/avatar_small.jpg?v=0\"){kind=avatar} | \nEric Miller | \n
In today's episode of the IC-DISC show, Eric Miller from the Export-Import Bank of the United States (EX-IM) provides valuable insights into how this 90-year-old institution supports American exporters through strategic financial services. I also learned that EX-IM is one of just two governmental agencies that is an actual profit center.
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\nBefore joining EX-IM, Eric worked for a privately-held exporter that was a customer of EX-IM. His expertise both inside and outside of EX-IM sheds light on crucial products like export credit insurance, export financing, and financing for foreign buyers. These solutions can alleviate common hurdles inhibiting international trade growth.
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\nWe also talk through some real-world examples of these various EXIM solutions. This is a must-listen episode for any company doing substantial direct exports.
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SHOW HIGHLIGHTS
\n\nContact Details
\n[Email]
\n(eric.miller@xmexim.gov)
\n[Phone Number]
\n(713-306-7969)
About Export-Import Bank of the United States
\n\n\n | \nEric Miller | \n
(AI transcript provided as supporting material and may contain errors)
\n\nI really recommend you take a listen to this one. It's really valuable hey good morning Eric. Welcome to the podcast.
\n\nEric: Thank you, Dave. It's a pleasure to be here. It's an honor. Thank you.
\n\nDave: Well, the pleasure is all mine. So where are you connecting from today? What part of the world are you in at the moment?
\n\nEric: The great state of Texas. I'm in the Houston area, born and raised in Texas and been all over the world, but this is home. Oh, that's awesome.
\n\nDave: In fact, I think you even stayed close for college, right.
\n\nEric: I did. I'm a Cougar alumni, so a proud Houston native.
\n\nDave: Awesome, so I'm really excited to have you on. You are with the Export Import Bank of the United States, correct? Correct so we also go by XM Bank, sorry.
\n\nEric: Yep.
\n\nDave: So tell me about XM, tell me about the kind of the history of the organization and why it exists, and then we'll get it. We'll see where the conversation goes.
\n\nEric: Yeah, no, it's a good question. I'm biased, of course, working here, but I think it's one of the most fascinating government agencies that exist. We're set up in the executive branch of the federal government. We've been around for 90 years. Most people haven't heard of us. We are small. We've got anywhere between 400 and 500 people as a part of the agency. Most are headquartered in Washington DC, but we do have a dozen regional offices scattered throughout the US and all the major cities. I cover the Houston office and in doing so, I work with exporters in the great state of Texas and help them export more US made products and services. That's really what we're about here at XM Bank is supporting our US companies that are exporting a US made good or service. We're on the finance side of that help. There's other government agencies. Throughout the whole process of a transaction, whether it's finding buyers, whether it's financing a transaction or even getting grant money to help you export. There's other support, but EXIM is specific on the finance piece.
\n\nDave: Okay, and so does EXIM. At the end of the day, you know, does this cost taxpayers, you know, billions of dollars to have this thing in place.
\n\nEric: Yeah, that's another good question. So you know, we're one of the few agencies historically that have actually built a surplus of money for the taxpayer. In other words, we're using less than we're making and we send money back to Treasury. It changes year to year, but historically, if you look over the past you the past 20, 30 years we're generating a surplus and sending that back to treasury, so costing taxpayers billions of dollars. No, we like to operate a little differently than a government agency. We are an independent government agency, which means we're not inside a cabinet, but we are set up in the executive branch and we like to say we run at the speed of business Internally, we're very efficient, we're very effective and we're very aggressive, trying to reach out to US companies and get them involved in helping them.
\n\nDave: Well, that is awesome. I think it sounds like just a win, right. It's a win for the taxpayers. It's actually a profit center, if you will, for the taxpayers. It's good for the exporters, it's good for the country. Am I correct? I think the only other government agency I've ever heard of that's a profit center is like the Patent and Trademark Office. Have you heard that too?
\n\nEric: I think you're right. Now, I haven't researched that myself, just in passing and conversations I've heard of the same and there might be one or two others out there. But yeah, it's an unusual feat of a government agency to kind of generate that surplus for a taxpayer and send it back to Treasury. We do charge, you know, fees and that's how the agency itself makes and brings in money. We charge fees for our different products and you know we have products like export credit insurance. To just kind of dive into what we do, yeah, let's do that In export credit insurance to just kind of dive into what we do yeah let's do that In export credit insurance.
\n\nSo let me take a couple steps back.
\n\nWhen an exporter engages in international business, when they find a foreign buyer in a country and they say, hey, here's what I sell, whether it's a product or service, there's always a sticking point. If you will product or service, there's always a sticking point if you will in the negotiations, when it comes to money flow. And what I mean by that is the exporter will say, hey, I'll ship my product or I'll do the service, but go ahead and wire me money before I ship it. And then the importer, the buyer there's always a reluctance to say well, I don't want to wire you money, because what if you close your doors? I never hear from you again. So when there's a new relationship and there's a transaction that's trying to occur, money, the movement of money, is always a sticking point. Who sends it first? And exporters lose a lot of deals because of this. I speak to exporters on a daily basis and every week there's at least one that says I wish I would have known about this. It would have helped me with the last negotiation I had with a foreign buyer who said you know, ship me the product on open account and I'll pay you 60 days later. I wasn't comfortable with that as an exporter so I closed the door and lost the deal.
\n\nSo XM gets involved and we say no, go ahead. And you know, if they're asking for credit terms, go ahead and provide that to them and we will back you up on the payment. We will insure that receivable from default. So if something goes wrong and the foreign buyer doesn't pay back the exporter as intended, we will insure it. They put a claim into us. So when I say claim, just like any other insurance policy, right, you're driving a car and you get to an accident, you file a claim. Something goes wrong with the house, you file a claim with the home insurance provider.
\n\nWe're no different. We're an insurance provider on foreign receivables and the government gets involved in this space because you know, david, look at the trade deficit. Last year we're nearing a trillion dollars. Most years, from year to year in the last 10 years, it's getting worse and worse. So what I mean by that is we're bringing in way more than we're sending out, and what we have found through our research as a government agency is the number one reason more US companies are not sending more product abroad is the number one reason is fear. They are fearful of what that process looks like and the government gets involved. Then we say let's take away that fear. We'll put the risk on our shoulders as it relates to credit insurance. Go ahead and give your foreign buyer terms or open account. We'll shoulder the risk and if they don't pay you, we'll pay you. And we want to help the trade deficit. We want to as a government agency. We want to stimulate US manufacturing. We want to create jobs through exports. That's really what the mission is here at Ex-Im Bank.
\n\nDave: Okay, yeah, no, that's really good. And do you specifically underwrite each customer? You know each foreign customer, or is there just you guys? Just use some general parameters.
\n\nEric: Yeah, no, it's a good question, like what does that process look like? So we have four different credit insurance policies. We can do everything from hey, we'll underwrite every buyer if you're not comfortable with it. Or hey, we'll give you a policy where you can do your own underwriting according to our credit standards but give you that autonomy inside your company to do it without coming to us every time there's a buyer. So there's different approaches. Most exporters like the autonomy because they can approve a credit right then and there, rather than sending us the paperwork and then us process it and then get back to them. So it just depends on timeline. But yeah, we can do either.
\n\nDave: And does the policy insure 100% of the invoice or is there a co-insurance piece where your customer is taking some of the risk?
\n\nEric: So the coverage will be anywhere from 90 or 95%, depending on which policy. Most of them are in that 95% range, but some of them are in the 90. Okay, they have the option.
\n\nDave: Yeah. So it's enough that as long as the company's got decent margins right, if their margin's greater than 5% or 10%, then their risk is just if a deal goes bad. They didn't make any money on that deal.
\n\nEric: That's a fair way of looking at it?
\n\nDave: Yep, but they have enough skin in the game that they do want to make a profit on that transaction. They want to all that trouble. So they have a motivation to not, you know, sell to people who you know they have serious concerns about their ethics or integrity or ability to pay.
\n\nEric: Exactly, and that's really what it's all about. Hey, I've got a new relationship and you know, name a country. They're asking for open account. And open account, you know, most people are comfortable with that in the US. They have a recourse in mind. Hey, if I don't pay, here's the process where I can recoup. But that all goes away when you send it to a foreign country. Like you know, how do I even get my money if I don't? I'm dealing with a different legal environment, political currency, culture, I mean. The list goes on and on. So that's where, wherein lies the fear for the exporter. And there's government agencies, both local, state and federal, all of them. We want to surround the exporter, prop them up, take away the fear, shoulder the risk and get them comfortable in international business.
\n\nDave: Okay, so you may mention the one person you were talking to that said they wish they'd known about XM because they kind of lost this deal. Do you have another case study, if you will, or example and obviously you don't have to mention the specific company by name where everything did work out kind of a success story, where maybe they were not exporting much but with this credit insurance it really helped them materially increase their sales? Do you have any examples like that, just to help people further understand?
\n\nEric: Oh yeah, we have a whole list of resources on our website. There's a section dedicated to success stories of all the different companies and we like to diversify the industry and the product and we've got you name it and it's probably up there. One that just immediately comes to mind is a company and they've been kind of a strong advocate of Ex-Im Bank. They're called BuzzBalls and it's alcohol manufactured here in Texas in the Dallas area, and they were very successful domestically. I mean, you can find these little alcohol glasses basically in any kind of retail store in the US. But as they looked abroad they wanted to de-risk a lot of their open account with distributors and really I think the last I heard they either doubled or tripled the revenue by focusing on foreign buyers, distributing it to the distributors, the foreign distributors giving them credit to pay and Ex-Im Bank insuring the risk. I mean, it's just one interesting example that you know, if little cups of alcohol can move abroad, mostly anything can.
\n\nDave: Oh, that's great, I love that and thank you for that. Thank you for that example. So now let's say that a company is contemplating exporting and let's say they have this large potential order you know large for them, you say it's a $5 million company annual revenues and suddenly they have this pay for the materials from their supplier and they maybe don't have enough working capital to do that and maybe they're in a spot where you know a traditional bank loan or line of credit. They're maybe, just maybe what you'd call not bankable. What happens then? Does the whole process just fall apart? You know they've got the credit insurance but they don't have the cash to buy the goods. What happens then?
\n\nEric: Yeah, that's really the second big problem in international trade. So the US banking system in general is challenging to help US companies fill export orders, and what I mean by that is, in your example, a $5 million revenue company. It can even be bigger than that, it could be 20, 30, 40. The problem with a lot of US companies is when their foreign sales start to get significant and they go to the bank and say, hey, I need a line of credit, not just for my domestic business, I need it for my international too. There becomes a problem in the banking system. There's this view that it's high risk and, as bankers tend to be more conservative and shy away from risk, so most times US companies have problems getting the money they need to fill these export purchase orders.
\n\nSo government gets involved, Ex-Im gets involved and SBA also has a product similar to the Ex-Im bank. It varies according to the banker who wants to use the product, but the idea behind it is we become a guarantor of repayment to the lender. So in your example, $5 million a year company, $2 million foreign sale that we're going to insure they walk that over to the bank and they say, hey, I got insurance on the receivable. Great, it's a $2 million deal. Now I need a million bucks or whatever as a line of credit to build all this stuff or go out and buy it. The bank will say, okay, where's it going? Oh, it's leaving the country. I can't help you. But when you come back with a US purchase order, then we can get serious in our talks. The company is stranded and they can't get the money, the capital they need to fill these orders with working capital. So we get involved and we say, hey, if they're presenting financial statements and the financial statements merit the ability to borrow what they're asking for a million, whatever it is and you're only saying no because it's an export, go ahead and give them the money that they need that they're asking for again, as long as it meets the credit standards, and we'll co-sign, we become a repayment guarantor to that line of credit so they can have access to the money that they need to fill these foreign buyer purchase orders. Guarantees and insurance is really kind of what we're about here at Ex-Im Bank to enable this cross-border trade.
\n\nOn the finance piece, Now, with that line of credit that we guarantee, they could also use it to issue bid bonds or performance bonds or standby letters of credit. Because another problem in our banking system is when a exporter bids on a foreign tender, that tender sometimes will say hey, if you want to bid on this, you got to put up a performance bond or a bid bond and that kind of weeds out the non-serious suppliers versus the serious. And when they want to supply that bid bond and they go to the bank, put the equivalent amount of cash in your account, I'll escrow it and then issue the bond. And then the exporter you know has this confused look. And well, I don't want to pay for my own deal and block my own cash. So under the XM line of credit you can actually use borrowed money to issue those bid bonds, performance bonds, standby LCs at a reduced cash collateral, so you're not tying up your cash.
\n\nDave: Interesting.
\n\nEric: And what's the?
\n\nDave: typical I think the term like if you're factoring an invoice, it's called. I think it's called like the advance rate, like what percentage you could borrow, like on the you know the purchase order or the invoice that you create. What's that percentage? You know, through the XM financing.
\n\nEric: So we put it into two categories pre-export and post-export. Okay, pre-export is the working capital right, the inventory, work in process, finished goods. So under that you could borrow a 75% advance rate. Then post-export, once it becomes a receivable, you could borrow 90. So it's pretty generous advance rates and typically it helps exporters fill these purchase orders much easier if we weren't involved.
\n\nDave: Yeah, Cause I think I was a CFO of a company many years ago and we were growing rapidly and we're using factoring and the. It seems like the advance rate we were able to get on the factoring for domestic sales, let alone international, was only like 70 or 80%. So, and even I think I'm told that even if a company has a line of credit that they're backing with inventory and domestic receivables, that still a typical kind of advance rate is really only like I think, about 80. And so you're talking about an even higher, if I'm using the correct term, than what a traditional bank would provide to a traditional bankable customer for a domestic sale. Is that accurate, based on your knowledge?
\n\nEric: Yeah, very accurate. And sometimes you know I go back to the example of US banks don't like export orders, and they don't. Sometimes they will give an advantage. They've got a traditional line of credit set up for domestic. They may say we'll let you borrow 10, 20, 30% advance rate on the export stuff. With our guarantee we can expand that to 75, up to 90. So it could be that we expand the borrowing base or just let alone get them access to it for export orders, with our guarantee.
\n\nDave: Okay, yeah, this is really valuable and I can't wait to get the word out to our contacts. So, on the working capital piece so how does that work then? Is the process that they call up their bank and say, hey, do you guys do anything with XM and they just work purely through their banker? Or do they call you up and say, hey, we need some working capital? We don't really have a big banking relationship. Can you recommend somebody? Help me understand the logistics?
\n\nEric: of it, Absolutely. Yeah, it's a good question. We recommend starting with us. It's very easy to get lost in the banking system and trying to figure out who to talk to about getting the setup. A lot of time exporters will speak to their local relationship manager and they start talking about XM working capital and they're like you know who's XM? I don't, I don't even know what you're talking about. Slow down, so it's more efficient to start with us and if they're working with a bank that is in our lender network, we can go directly to the right person and connect them with the exporter to have those conversations. If they're working with a lender that is not inside our our network, we can still locate a lender to set up kind of a XM specific line of credit if that's something they want to pursue.
\n\nDave: Okay.
\n\nEric: Okay.
\n\nDave: Now this is really valuable. Does the bank have any other service lines besides the foreign receivables insurance and the working capital?
\n\nEric: We've got a couple others. One of them is called foreign buyer finance. Okay, this is a real interesting one. This is when a US company is selling capital equipment to a foreign buyer and when that capital equipment quotation gets to the foreign buyer, what we see often is they'll go to their bank.
\n\nIn some of these emerging markets, developing countries, the buyer will go to the bank and say, ok, you know, I got a quotation for, let's say, you know, john Deere equipment, ag equipment or Caterpillar, construction equipment or mining equipment, whatever. They go to their bank and they say I need to borrow to pay the US company for the equipment. And when they get a term sheet from their local bank, if you're familiar with international business and international finance, the cost can be much higher than what we're used to paying in the US as far as cost of capital Cost of capital I've seen even triple and quadruple in some of these developing markets. And then the buyer the deal falls to the wayside because the buyer can't afford to pay the bank all this cost associated with the capital.
\n\nSo in situations like that and kind of high cost capital markets, we can get involved and find a lender, as long as we've got good audited financial statements and they meet credit standards, we can find a lender to give that foreign buyer a term loan, a three to seven year term loan, of which we guarantee repayment of to the lender, to buy that US made capital equipment.
\n\nSo, in simple terms, we can finance a foreign buyer when the foreign buyer is buying US made equipment, and what we have found is the US companies that really know this product inside and out use that as a competitive advantage. They're saying, hey, sure, on one hand, here's my quotation for the equipment and on the other hand, I can get you finance if you need it. And I can get you finance if you need it. And the companies that do that well, I mean their sales shoot through the roof because now they become this finance facilitator for foreign buyers to access cheaper capital, which we've even seen companies where maybe they're 10% higher on the bid than some of the other countries, but they're saving them 15% on the finance.
\n\nDave: Yeah, I can see that. Yeah, I can see that that's really clever. I was familiar with the first two pieces, but I really was not familiar with that. I mean, yeah, that's a real competitive advantage. I mean it makes you wonder how a company in I don't know pick your country, brazil, that you know is trying to compete Like how do they compete when they can't? I'm guessing that they probably don't have the same type of capability to offer you know these, you know more attractive financing rates.
\n\nEric: So, yeah, that's a great point XM Bank we're also referred as an export credit agency, eca. So every developed country in the world has the equivalent of us. Out of, let's say, roughly 200 countries, there's 120 of us representing the nation of each country. So what we know is, as it relates to international business, there are, you know, foreign. When there's foreign competition in the tender, sometimes that foreign competition knows about their local ECA also. Right, so they could be offering the same thing. Hey, I can get you, you know, finance through my local ECA. You know name, a country, country. So we want companies in the US to be aware of how we can help them and support them, just like other member countries of partner ECAs do, because it's a competitive advantage and if they're not aware of it, it's a loss really for the exporter.
\n\nAnd I mentioned four products. So we went over export credit insurance, the working capital getting the foreign buyer a loan, and then the fourth one. It came out about a year and a half ago. It's a new product that we're super excited about and it's really domestic project finance where there's an export nexus. And what I mean by that, david, is let's take an industry, let's take LNG.
\n\nWhen an LNG liquid natural gas. When liquid natural gas projects in wherever let's call it Texas, when they go live and you've got a solid entity set up for the purpose of building an LNG plant maybe there's corporate shareholders, maybe there's individual shareholders, whatever it may be when banks take a look at this and they see that it's a domestic project finance structure meaning the off of any kind of contract will repay the loan Bankers don't like that. Bankers don't like project finance. If we look at a project where there's an export nexus and what we define as an export nexus is 25% of the sales will be exported we could potentially be a lender or a loan guarantor to that domestic project as long as there's going to be 25% foreign sales, and we could go down to 15% if it's a small business, so we can involve oh, that's really cool.
\n\nDave: Yeah, because I mentioned the bank is going to say, yeah, it sounds like a great opportunity. Go find some investors to fund this and then, once you start exporting the LNG, give us a call. We'll give you some working capital and you'll work with XM to ensure the receivables, but until then, hey, it's on you.
\n\nEric: That's it. That's the problem. That's where a lot of these projects get stuck in the banking system as it relates to traditional banking. They can't get the money they need to lift this project up, and it could be a great project, but yeah, banks like to see history right. I want to see your balance sheet income statement, cash flow last three years. Let me underwrite it Well, there is none. It's a new project and we're building it. Well, we can't help you Go find some investors, and that's typically the conversations. So, instead of these deals disappearing, as long as there is solid offtake agreements, we can look at that, potentially to repay the loan, and we do that on the foreign buyer side too.
\n\nDave: Yeah, and to be fair to the bankers I know many bankers and have great relationships If a bank is paying 5% for a deposit and they're lending it out at, say, 8%, by the time they pay their fees and stuff they really don't have a lot of margin left. So you know they have an imputed default rate. You know that they can tolerate of like half a percent, right, maybe 1%, right. I mean, that's just their model.
\n\nEric: Margins are thin, you're right.
\n\nDave: Yeah, and they're probably even I'm guessing even prohibited from saying okay, yeah, we'll finance this deal for you, but this is high risk. So instead of a 7% loan, it's gonna be 30%. I mean, the banks probably aren't even allowed to do. There's probably usury laws or something. Am I correct in that?
\n\nEric: Yeah, yeah. So they would definitely view the risk differently as a domestic project finance. But I would say, even more so, the regulatory issues involving domestic project finance probably prohibit the lenders from doing that.
\n\nDave: Even oh yeah, yeah, that's right. I never thought about that.
\n\nEric: There's definitely some challenges in that space. I never thought about that. There's definitely some challenges in that space.
\n\nDave: Yeah, that makes sense because really, from a holistic perspective, you would say hey, bank, this isn't your sweet spot. This is like venture capital, risk capital. Let them find a lender, like a hard asset lender, that'll charge a much higher rate, or let them raise equity capital to finance this. This isn't what you're designed for, mr First National Bank, Exactly.
\n\nEric: Okay.
\n\nDave: What are some of the limits, minimum maximums for these different products? Let's start with the credit insurance. Is there a minimum size that you all have insurance? Is there a minimum size like that you all have? I mean, I'm guessing if somebody has a hundred dollar foreign receivable that they want to insure, probably doesn't really make sense for everybody. So is there a minimum size? Is it a hard minimum or kind of a soft minimum?
\n\nEric: Yeah, that's a great question. So we don't have a minimum per se, documented minimum, but yeah, it's got to make sense right To go through the process. So I mean, we've insured receivables as low as a couple thousand bucks, so that's for credit insurance. For working capital we also don't have a minimum, but that's set by the lender.
\n\nSo we say hey, as long as the lender will do the loan, we'll take a look at the guarantee and most lenders that we have spoken to we probably would say that the minimum with most lenders is around a half a million for a working capital line of credit. And then on the foreign buyer side, again it's got to make sense to the lender. We don't have a minimum. Most lenders, I would say the minimum I've seen where a US lender would give a loan to a foreign buyer is also around a half a million. Maximum, no maximum, but anything above 25 million has to go to our board.
\n\nThe largest we did in the bank's history was in Mozambique, for an LNG facility was 5 billion. Oh wow.
\n\nDave: And then are there limits on the working capital and credit insurance, similar limits that require board approval.
\n\nEric: Anything above 25. Yep, it's the same 25 number, correct, which it's. You know it's not prohibitive, it just adds another layer to the process. Yeah.
\n\nDave: And even again, even if XM wasn't involved, I know a lot of banks, just you know, when loans get above a certain amount they want to syndicate them with other banks, just for their own risk. And I think a lot of times those syndication amounts for a medium-sized bank will start in that 10 to $25 million, as I understand it. And then what about the domestic projects that have 25% export expectations, any minimum or maximums there that you've seen?
\n\nEric: So I would say there's no hard set minimum, but the soft minimum I'm seeing is probably 5 million plus and the reason for that is the SBA, the Small Business Administration, also a federal government agency. They have similar products that go up to five, so this will take it past five and we don't want to compete with another government agency. They have similar products that go up to five, so this will take it past five and we don't want to compete with another government agency, so it's five below. Sba might be a better fit. Five above we're probably the only game in town. Okay, zero to five, taking some notes on this Five plus.
\n\nDave: You know, one of the other interesting things is we've had this conversation that if you think people have never heard of XM, they're even, I think, less likely to have heard of the ICDISC program.
\n\nYou know we specialize and what's interesting is how is the number of parallels? I mean, the thing that I can't, you know that blows me away is how logical everything is with XM. Like you know, there's a, you know there's a perhaps a belief that some government programs, agencies that there's no real logic to it. It was just it was some negotiation in Congress and they had just some arbitrary rules. But you know, as I kind of look at these, they just all seems very logical, right? And you know, like you know, above a certain amount you need board approval Again, just like in a bank, right, when they're doing a $25 million loan, it's probably got to go to a loan review committee or something. But the other thing is there's some similarities between XM and the ICDISC and one of them is the 51% US content. Can you explain how that works with XM, because I think it's pretty much the same as ICDISC.
\n\nEric: To my knowledge it is also yeah. So it goes back to really the mission right Creating jobs through US exports, and we want to stimulate US manufacturing. So we can't support a trade where you know Houston companies buying from China and sending it down to you know name a country in South America. There's no value add for the country. So Congress basically put a policy to the agency that says anything that we support has to be greater than 50% US content.
\n\nSo another way of saying it's just 51%. Right, majority of the product has to be US content, and the way that we calculate that is we look at the cost. So if they're selling a widget that they sell for $100, but it costs $70, we're going to look at the $70 and say $30 of that, 70 needs to be US content. So that's really we look at the cost and the majority of the cost needs to be US made, whether it's product.
\n\nDave: Or another way of saying it is no more than $36 foreign cost Yep, that makes sense.
\n\nEric: And if it's a service, by the way, sometimes we get these service questions, by the way, because sometimes we get these service questions where, hey, you know, I'm an engineering company designing, you know, a refinery plant for a foreign buyer. How do I look at that as far as US content? So what we do is we say, okay, start with your invoice. Right, whatever you're billing out, if it says engineering services or CAD drawings or whatever, take that and then look at the cost and greater than 50% needs to be US citizens or green card holders as part of that cost for services. So we basically look at the citizenship of the provider for evaluating US content and the cost.
\n\nDave: Yeah, and that's somewhat similar to the ICDISC really only includes two types of services that are eligible engineering services and architectural services for foreign construction projects or services that are an integral part of the sale. You know, like if you sell a product for a million dollars and there's a $200,000 installation service, as long as that's an integral part of the, you know the project that qualifies, you know that service does. But yeah, that's interesting. So let's say somebody says hey, you know, eric, I really like the sound of this and I'd like to talk to you. But you know, I just feel like you know, you're probably a lifelong government employee. You probably want to work right out of college. You don't know what it's like to sit in my shoes. You don't know what it's like to have been on the private side. You know having these foreign customers. What would you say to them?
\n\nEric: Yeah, so being a government employee is new to me also, yeah, so after college I started at a company and worked there for a decade, grew into sweat equity. I was a part minority shareholder and I was a customer of Ex-Im Bank for 10 years. Yeah, we were a company that exported capital equipment all over the world, but with a concentration in Sub-Saharan Africa. Okay, and we grew rapidly with the help of Ex-Im Bank. We used all the products of credit insurance, the working capital, getting the foreign buyer a loan and that really became a competitive advantage to the company. Because we looked at ourselves saying, hey, we're an equipment supplier, but so is the other hundreds of companies around, if not thousands of companies. How do we make ourselves different?
\n\nAnd the finance became very important to that conversation, because you can Google, search equipment companies in the US and you're going through thousands of pages trying to find an equipment supplier. But not everybody is saying, hey, we have financial solutions too. If you need them, we can get you a loan. We can sell to you an open account with our insurance. We can get the capital we need to fill these export purchase orders. We can get the line of credit that we need to send bid bonds and performance bonds to some of these large tenders. So, going back to your question, I've been at Exxon for seven years, but the majority of my career was in the private sector and being a minority shareholder of a company that used the bank that I work for now to grow a small business.
\n\nDave: What a great story, like it would seem like you have the perfect background for your role I mean, you're actually a customer for your role. I mean you're actually a customer. So the private companies that you're trying to help you really do understand what it's like to be in their shoes.
\n\nEric: I think most employees that work here at ExxonMobil found we're very service oriented. We like to help. We like to help. It's fun for us to help. It's fun for me to help. The best part of my day is meeting small business exporters, helping them become aware of all the resources that are available to them to become more competitive and grow, like we did when I was with that company.
\n\nDave: Yeah, it's just amazing how similar our days are. That's also the favorite part of my job is when I get a phone call from somebody and they say hey, you know, bob said I should call you. You know we're. Our exports have really grown a lot, and there's this thing called ICDISC and you know, tell us about it, are we the right fit? And it's great to be able to help them. Oh, I was just going to ask you something. Oh, what about indirect exports? Do they qualify under an indirect export?
\n\nEric: Great question, yeah, so under the working capital it does. So if you have an exporter that's selling to you know name a major company, let's say a major oil and gas company who in turn is exporting that out, we call that an indirect export. That does qualify them to get the capital they need to fill that order.
\n\nDave: Yep, Another parallel with the IC disk. The IC disk is the same way. Yeah, Most of our clients are actually indirect exporters. So some of the products would not be as beneficial, you know, like the credit insurance, for example, because they don't have any foreign receivables. But you know, they don't have any foreign receivables, but they still may have use for some of the other products. Okay, so I've got just a couple more questions.
\n\nEric: Well, first off, is there anything we didn't cover that you wish I had? I would say there's other government resources that every exporter should know.
\n\nDave: Okay, what are those?
\n\nEric: Yeah, so one of them is the US Commercial Services. They're a part of the Department of Commerce and they've got an office in every major city in the US. I think there's a hundred, if I remember right, a hundred US Commercial Service offices scattered throughout the US. If you're in Houston, there's one in Houston. Great folks, we work with them closely. They've got some really good products as well for exporters.
\n\nOne of them is called the Gold Key, and the Gold Key it basically connects buyer and seller. So once the agency understands the company, they met with them. They understand the company, they understand what they're selling. They have to be what's called export ready. So an existing business that's already selling, let's say they're successful here domestically and they want to export. You know, let's say that to the, to our closest neighbors, first Canada and Mexico. But they're like hey, I don't, how do I even do that? How do I find a buyer, how do I find a distributor in these countries? That's really the first step in kind of the.
\n\nThe maze of exporting is first you got, you have to have a buyer. We're kind of second to that right. Once you have a buyer, then it's money talks and then we get involved. But even before us. The commercial services can get involved and under the gold key they can find distributors, partners, buyers in foreign markets. Wow, yeah, under the gold key. So they basically, once they understand the business, they work with the embassy in that country and say, hey, I've got, you know, bob, here's his company, been around for 10 years, successful in the U? S, but they want to start with Mexico. And can you find them buyers, can you find them distributors? And they try to play matchmaker. So they generate a list and they recommend going to the country that you want to export to shake hands, stare them in the face, sit down with them physically, because that's another important thing in international business you can't just stay behind the phone or email. You really have to go to these places.
\n\nDave: Wow, so that's amazing. Now the bad news, Eric, is you and XM may have just dropped to number two as far as my favorite government agency. I mean, depending on where a company is, that might be even more valuable, right? Because without the customers, they don't even need the other products of XM. That's really cruel.
\n\nEric: That's right yeah. I mean they need a buyer before they come to XM. They need a foreign buyer and commercial services can help with that.
\n\nDave: So be careful. You're about to list some other agencies and may further knock you down on the priority list, so be careful there.
\n\nEric: That's OK, we're here to help. So you know. Another problem with small businesses you know I'm selling domestically. You know successful I'm selling domestically. You know I'm successful. Maybe I'm running on thin margins. I don't have the capital that I need to go into all these countries and spend all this money and cross my fingers that I get business. And I just don't want to spend that kind of money and risk that kind of money because I need to keep my lights on and pay employees first. So there's something called the STEP grant S-T-E-P grant.
\n\nDave: STEP grant.
\n\nEric: It stands for statewide trade export promotion, so most states participate in it. It's federal money given to the states who in turn give grant money to companies who are looking to export, and they can use that grant money for travel you know, hotel, stay, airfare. They want to do website translation on their website from you know English to Mandarin and Spanish to. You know capture half the world. They want to. You know create design, create print flyers. You know any kind of marketing collateral that will aid them in promoting their company to foreign buyers. This is a reimbursable grant, which means you apply for it. You can say, hey, I want to go to Mexico, my airfare is going to cost this, my hotel is going to cost this, conference in Mexico is going to cost this, and all together it's going to be $10,000. So you apply for it and then, once approved, you can get up to 75% of that back.
\n\nDave: So you have to actually spend the money.
\n\nEric: First you got to spend. That's the key thing there. You got to spend the money, but you got to get it approved. Once it's approved, then you spend the money and then you come back and give them your receipts.
\n\nDave: Wow, that's pretty cool. Does that fall under one of the federal agencies? Is that kind of the ultimate umbrella, or is it really more of a state by state program?
\n\nEric: In Texas the Department of Ag is administering the fund and I think it does vary state by state on who holds the money and approves it and disperses the money, and I may be wrong, but I think it goes up to $10,000. It's either $7,500 or $10,000 max amount that can be approved. Okay, you can apply every year. Some companies do that. Okay, and what else? Are there some other? The SBA, small Business Administration Sure, most people know them for domestic business, but they also have an export arm called the OIT, which is Office of International Trade. So they have export finance products just like we do. They're not competitive to one another. They're slightly different in various aspects. They can get you working capital, usually for smaller loans, or they can get you something called an international trade loan and what that is used for is like, hey, I need to buy some capital equipment to go into my factory and it's going to cost a million bucks and it's going to generate export sales, that kind of finance structure.
\n\nDave: Is the structure kind of the same, or does the borrower have to put up a bigger percentage? Or do you know?
\n\nEric: For the international trade loan. I think it's similar. They guarantee the lender just like we guarantee the lender. The international trade loan I think it's similar. They guarantee the lender just like we guarantee the lender and lenders. You know, we like to say the lender makes the decision because our guarantees are slightly different than one another. So some lenders will say, hey, I'm more comfortable with XM, or hey, I'm more comfortable with the SBA, or hey, this is above $5 million. The only one you could do is XM Bank. So it's really up to the lender to evaluate the guarantee and what fits them best.
\n\nDave: Well, that is awesome. Any other government agencies that you tend to work with regularly those are the big ones.
\n\nEric: They'll always be in the same circles the SBA, the commercial services, and ourselves in the same circles, promoting as much as we can to our communities.
\n\nDave: That's awesome. Well, this has been so informative. I really appreciate the time. I just have two more questions, and they're really kind of fun ones, okay. So the first one is if you could go back in time and give advice to yourself, like right, when you were graduating college, what advice might you give to yourself? You know, with the benefit of hindsight, you know, if you kind of go back in time.
\n\nEric: What advice might you?
\n\nDave: give to yourself. You know, with the benefit of hindsight, you know if you kind of go back in time what advice might you give to yourself, you know? Things to do instead, or do sooner, or what comes to mind.
\n\nEric: That's a really good question, you know, going back in time, I would say, for the company that I worked for and some of the things that I don't like to say did wrong. But if we could repeat it and how we would do it differently. When the business grows and we grew fast our operational costs also grew fast and I think if we were better controlling the operational cost when there was a dip in revenue, there wouldn't be so much growing pains or slowing pains.
\n\nI think getting a better grasp operationally on a business when it's going through the growth phase is key to its long-term success, because a business is not always going to accelerate up. There's going to be peaks and valleys and as long as you manage the operational cost of the company, it can get through. You know look at COVID right Nobody predicted that how many businesses went through all kinds of painful experiences. So that, going back in time, just from a business standpoint, I think that would have been super helpful in our judgment and assessment of looking towards the future.
\n\nDave: Okay, I really like that. Well, we just have one left, and this one's even more fun. Don't think about this, I just want. It's kind of a snap answer. Okay, so you're a native Texan, right Native Houstonian, tex-mex or barbecue.
\n\nEric: Oh, I got to go with Tex-Mex. I love barbecue, barbecue. Oh, I gotta go with tex-mex. I love barbecue, but you know the chips and queso and salsa and guacamole.
\n\nDave: I don't think everything competes with that. Yeah, I, I asked this question of all my guests and and I had two answers that were interesting. One answer was if it's, if I know that the food is going to be average, I, I absolutely would take the Tex-Mex, because Tex-Mex has more tolerance for averageness. Ok, they said. But if it's going to be world class, then they would take the barbecue. But they don't want mediocre, tough, dried out brisket. Ok, so I'm like, well, that's a good one. And then I had a guest telling me about I forget the name of the place, but it was a place that had like brisket tacos or brisket enchiladas, and they basically said both, they'll take both.
\n\nEric: There you go. I like that.
\n\nDave: Yeah, I am with you. If people want to get ahold of you, what's the best way to reach out? I know you're on LinkedIn. Are you very active on LinkedIn?
\n\nEric: Not super active on LinkedIn, but I'm very accessible Cell phone, email, office phone. You can always get ahold of me.
\n\nDave: What's the email address?
\n\nEric: So ericmiller M-I-L--LE-R X-M-E-X-I-Mgov gov.
\n\nDave: So eric.miller@xmexim.gov and if they want to just call you, what's the best number to reach you?
\n\nEric: at 713-306-7969 awesome.
\n\nDave: well, thank you so much for taking the time to come on here. This may be the most information dense episode I've ever done for an exporter. Usually it seems like we've got one or two good nuggets, but we may have a dozen takeaways, so thank you so much for making time out of your day and this has really been fun. And don't be surprised when this goes live if you don't have a few folks reaching out to you.
\n\nEric: I look forward to it. Thanks for having me. It's been an honor.
Special Guest: Eric Miller.
","summary":" In today's episode of the IC-DISC show, Eric Miller from the Export-Import Bank of the United States (EX-IM) provides valuable insights into how this 90-year-old institution supports American exporters through strategic financial services. I also learned that EX-IM is one of just two governmental agencies that is an actual profit center.\r\n\r\nBefore joining EX-IM, Eric worked for a privately-held exporter that was a customer of EX-IM. His expertise both inside and outside of EX-IM sheds light on crucial products like export credit insurance, export financing, and financing for foreign buyers. These solutions can alleviate common hurdles inhibiting international trade growth. \r\n\r\nWe also talk through some real-world examples of these various EXIM solutions. This is a must-listen episode for any company doing substantial direct exports.","date_published":"2024-04-12T11:30:00.000-05:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/d61cedee-227d-47c8-8d74-3407972d4afc/fe063a11-4b6a-4e87-8c06-0800699f8460.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":36188493,"duration_in_seconds":3006}]},{"id":"e7edee9d-64a8-42c8-8e51-3833ab7dfb43","title":"Ep052: Mastering Finance with Nearshoring Insights with Dan Corredor","url":"https://www.ic-discshow.com/052","content_text":"In today's episode of the IC-DISC show, I sit down with Dan Corredor, the owner of Strategic CFO, to discuss how his firm is revolutionizing the accounting landscape through near-shoring in Mexico. We explore Dan's journey starting in Colombia and arriving in Houston, where his bilingual skills have helped Strategic CFO carveout a unique niche. \n\nOur conversation reveals how Strategic CFO blends accounting expertise with innovative strategies to strengthen businesses from the inside out. Through insights on US GAAP, technology, and building capable teams, Dan shows us why accounting is about more than compliance - it's about fostering strategic growth. \n\nNear the end, Dan offers us personal anecdotes about cultivating early savings habits and his culinary interests. Our discussion provides a blueprint for navigating accounting challenges with an international perspective and strategic foresight to propel businesses higher. \n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n \n\nSHOW HIGHLIGHTS\n\n\n\nDan Corredor's firm, Strategic CFO, is leading a cost-saving revolution by near-shoring back-office accounting services to Mexico, significantly reducing costs compared to traditional US-based services.\nStrategic CFO was acquired by Dan Corridor in 2017 after the passing of founder Jim Wilkinson, and Dan has continued to evolve the company while maintaining its legacy.\nWe discuss the importance of differentiating between bookkeeping and accounting, where bookkeeping involves recording transactions and accounting involves analyzing and interpreting financial data according to US GAAP.\nWe highlight how an effective accounting team can steer companies beyond outdated systems, and how technology is transforming financial statement preparation.\nDan emphasizes the symbiotic client relationships that result from a combination of coachability and strategic foresight in financial matters.\nThere's a discussion about the challenges in the US accounting landscape, including talent shortages and wage inflation, and how near-sourcing with Mexican talent offers a solution.\nThe near-sourcing model involves Mexican employees supervised by Texas-based controllers, ensuring quality control while offering CFO-level support to US companies.\nWe touch upon the personal side of Dan Corridor's journey, including the importance of early financial savings and sharing personal culinary favorites, to connect with the audience.\nStrategic CFO brings a unique international perspective to each client they serve, emphasizing their hands-on approach and operational expertise.\nWe wrap up with anecdotes and stories that provide insight into the practical application of financial strategies and how companies can scale efficiently with the right accounting support.\n\n\n\n\nLINKSShow Notes\nBe a Guest\nAbout IC-DISC Alliance\nAbout Strategic CFO\n\n\n\nGUEST\n\n\n\nDan CorredorAbout Dan\n\n\n\n\n\nTRANSCRIPT\n\n(AI transcript provided as supporting material and may contain errors)\n\n\n Dave: Hi, my name is David Spray. Welcome to another episode of the IC-DISC Show. Today, my guest is Dan Corredor, the owner of Strategic CFO. Strategic CFO is like many virtual CFO service companies, except that Strategic CFO has an interesting twist that they implemented a little over a year ago. They use what Dan calls near-shoring similar to offshoring, but done in Mexico, where it is very near, and we go into great detail about how they have developed a model that allows for providing professional grade back office accounting for 60% less than a traditional US-sourced solution. There's a lot of great ideas in here, whether you're looking at developing a professionalized accounting group or not. I hope you enjoy this episode as much as I did. Good morning, Dan. Welcome to the podcast. \n\nDan: Good morning David. Thanks for having me. My pleasure, my pleasure. \n\nDave: So where are you calling in from today? What part of the world are you in? \n\nDan: So we are in Shurgland, texas, which is a suburb of Houston, houston, gotcha. \n\nDave: So let's so. You're a native of Houston. \n\nDan: No, I was actually born in Bogota, colombia, in South America. \n\nDave: Okay. \n\nDan: My family moved to the States when I was a baby about six months old, grew up First 10 years in Ohio, moved to Houston area in 1976, and we've been here ever since. \n\nDave: Oh wow, Did y'all speak Spanish at home then? \n\nDan: We did. That was my first language. My dad always said speak Spanish at home and I don't care what you speak outside of house. We learned English outside the house when I went to school and we still speak Spanish today, and my kids do as well. \n\nDave: That's awesome. I'm so jealous. My heritage is German and both of my grandmothers were born in the Dakotas in German communities. They only spoke German until they started school, but then they married non-German guys and then it was during World War II where, you know, speaking German was kind of frowned upon, so we lost the language. I'm always jealous of you truly bilingual folks, and bilingual with no accent in either language, because I'm assuming your Spanish has a nice Colombian accent. \n\nDan: Right, it's pretty good as well. Yeah, it's certainly paid off. I really think that I've gotten a couple of jobs I've had in my career because most of the time I spoke Spanish and could be in Latin America. \n\nDave: That's awesome and good for you for keeping it going to the next generation. I'm told that's easy to kind of let it slide. \n\nDan: Especially as kids grow up, you know, get a little bit older and they start talking back in English and we have to kind of remind them. But it works. You know, my kids are not 20 and 21, and they both are fluent Spanish and English. \n\nDave: That's awesome. What a great skill set to launch them into the world with. \n\nDan: Yeah, we're proud of them. \n\nDave: That's great. So you end up in Houston at some point, at least when you went to college. \n\nDan: Yes, I went to University of Houston, got an accounting degree there and I started working in Houston in oil and gas production first, and then oil and gas services. So yeah, it's always been in Houston, except for two years in Dallas and then almost about four years as an expat in Mexico. \n\nDave: So other than that, always based in Houston- Okay, yeah, I tell people you go through it's like the stages of grief. I tell people that like it's the stages of Houston, right, like when you first get here at least this is what I went through you hate it. There's like it seems like an ugly city. It's flat, you know the traffic, the humidity in the summertime. Then after a while you start to tolerate it and then at some point it kind of gets in your blood and if you ever move away you're like, wow, I really miss that place. That place has got a lot going for it. \n\nDan: Yeah, I've always enjoyed it. You know I've always liked the Houston area and love Texas. Houston has been great. I love the climate, except for these January February days where you know we made it up in 32 degrees. I don't like that. But I don't mind. It has grown a lot. The last few years has experienced a tremendous amount of growth. \n\nDave: Especially where you are. Yeah, I remember when Sugar Land was the middle of nowhere, the country it was nothing. \n\nDan: It was nothing. I remember going to school elementary school we'd go to private school, st Thomas Memorial, and I'd tell kids where I live and I thought I was crazy. You live where you know, but it was only a 30 minute drive back then, so I know. \n\nDave: Well, let's talk about strategic when. When did you become involved in strategic CFO? When did you acquire it? \n\nDan: So I acquired the business in October 2017. The business has been around since the mid 90s. The founder, jim Wilkinson, was a colleague of mine and I actually met him in the 90s and it was ironic. I met him because my brother-in-law and his family hired Jim Wilkinson back in 96 or 97 to help him on a project as a CFO and my brother-in-law said, hey, you got to meet this guy. He's a really nice guy. You know, in Houston is your area. So I met him back then and you know, jim and I had similar backgrounds in regards to the type of things. We worked on our personalities, so we would do lunch and breakfast, you know, quarterly or every six months. Over the years Never worked with each other or for each other, but we'd networked a lot and we'd run into each other. We stayed in touch. We even referred business back and forth to each other, so that you know Jim is the founder and started this business, started the brand, did a great name, developing the brand, the strategic CFO, and he started our online business where we sell a membership subscription and some coaching workshops. Jim was very much a strategic coach. He loved the academic side of accounting and operations. He was very involved with the entrepreneurship program at the University of Houston, so all that really strengthened the business. \n\nAnd, unfortunately, jim went to bed one day in 2017 in the summer and didn't wake up and passed away. So it was really sad. I unfortunately didn't hear about his passing for two or three months afterwards and I was not able to attend his funeral, but I heard it was a beautiful funeral with, you know, a thousand people. So that was Jim. You know he was a network, he had lots of friends and you know so when he passed, I was at a company called Opportun and I was a restructuring group and I was finding an opportunity to love that firm. They've done a great job over there. \n\nBut when Jim passed, you know, I thought to myself. You know, I've always been, you know, kind of un-perno myself. I've always had the back of my mind wanting to do something on my own. So when Jim passed, I approached the family and asked them what are they going to do with the firm? And they really didn't have a plan of action. So they put me in touch with their attorney and, make long story short, I acquired the firm in October 2017. And it's been great ever since. This is a year six. I can't believe we've already been here six years and we've had a great firm, great growth. We've got really good people. The brand continues to build and strength and it's a well-known brand and I meet a lot of people that a new Jim you know, and they go yeah, I knew Jim, you know, and congrats for taking over Jim's business. \n\nYou know, so to me it's a privilege to take on his legacy. \n\nDave: Yeah, no, I really like Jim. I think the last time I had dinner with him he had a restaurant I forget where it was in West U that he liked to go to and we'd had dinner or drinks probably after work one day, but that was about a year before his passing, and also like you. Well, no, I think I did hear about it, but I was out of town, I was in, I was out of state and was not able to make the funeral. But same thing I heard. Yeah it was well attended. \n\nWell, I'm glad that you reached out to the family because I'm sure they were. His wife was likely in shock from the whole thing. And so that probably worked out well that there was somebody that she knew him had a clean relationship with. So that's great. So talk to me about who are the companies that you all are best set up to serve what's really your sweet spot and who you really can add value to Right. \n\nDan: So people ask us what are the typical companies you work on and boy it's a wide range Our clients, our smallest clients probably seven million in revenue, and our largest client is literally a 13 billion public and trade company. \n\nDave: So it's a wide range. \n\nDan: Now what's right down kind of the middle of the fairway? It's that typical entrepreneur or family owned business that started small and grew and is now doing 40, 50, 80 million hours in revenue and they need to professionalize the back office. It's the companies that started with very basic financial statements and cash reporting and things like that and have bookkeepers and then they move on and now their bank or their partners or investors somebody or the business owner needs professional financial statements. So we professionalize the back office, we professionalize your financial statements. I always explain to business I have this same discussion almost every single day with business owners there's a difference between bookkeeping and accounting and everybody knows bookkeeping. Everybody does bookkeeping. Bookkeeping is entering transactions into a system. You enter a PAR, you push a button, generate a report. That's bookkeeping. We don't do bookkeeping. We don't do that clerical, administrative entering transactions. We will do it as support staff, but we do accounting. We apply accounting principles based on US GAF to those transactions and it starts with everything on the P&L and everything on the balance sheet. You can go to line by line and there are some accounting principles that apply to each one of those transactions. Perfect example Yesterday I was at a client meeting. \n\nIt's been a fairly new client and they have a lot of manual processes and the transactions on the bookkeeping side. And we said, hey, we can automate this and then all you're going to need is the controller and the accounting manager. And his response is wait a minute, but if you automate all this transactions, I don't need anybody. And I was like well, you're automating the bookkeeping, you're not automating the accounting. Somebody has to apply the knowledge of accounting principles to all those transactions to make sure you have the right P&L and the right balance sheet. But if you just do the bookkeeping, then all you have, in whatever accounting system you're using, is transactions in a system that are really meaningless because you don't have the right margins, you don't have the right assets, you don't have the right liabilities, because you're not applying accounting principles. \n\nSo oftentimes we find ourselves as a firm educating and coaching the business owners on what is accounting. Why do they need financial statements based on US GAAP? It's not just for the public and credit companies that are trading on the Dow Jones, it's not for those billion dollar companies Every business if you don't have the proper financial statements the financial we call it financial tools, because it's more than just financial statements. If you don't have good financial tools, how do you make decisions in your business? How do you know what projects are making money and not making money truly based on accounting principles, not on a cash basis? So we have to often educate them. \n\nSo our ideal company is one. Well, one is the entrepreneur or business owner that wants to listen, because we have some that they don't know what they don't know and they think. I had one business owner not too long ago, probably four months ago, telling me that these financial tools and financial statements are just purple unicorns. I was like, okay, so if somebody doesn't want to accept the fact that I've been doing this for 32 years and we know what financial statements are and how they improve your business, if that business owner thinks that they know more than we do, we can help them. If they don't want to be coached, if they don't want to listen, we can't, and we've run into those. \n\nWe've run into business owners that they think they know everything. They've run their business 20, 30 years, which they run very well. They have good widgets that they make, but they don't know anything about financial statements or accounting principles. So that's the ideal client when it's coachable when it allows us to bring process and procedures and US gap so that they can have not only good financial statements, which are all historical in nature, but also what do we do with that data? Now we have to interpret that historical information, forecast it, analyze it, look at margins so that the business owner can make better decisions about the future. And we that's hence our name, strategic CFO we always want to think strategically. What do we do with that data? To interpret it so that we can properly forecast and know where the business is going and keep it financially healthy. The balance sheet and the P&L are going to describe to you the health of the business and we want to make sure it stays healthy. So that's the ideal client. \n\nDave: So it sounds like yeah. So it sounds like really it's. Companies are kind of a victim of their own success. You know, companies who have, I mean, a $5 million company who stays static for 20 years, you know probably can't add as much value, but that $5 million company that quadruples in revenue over five to 10 years, where they outgrow their accounting system, their processes, the team. It sounds like that's where the opportunity starts, with you all. \n\nDan: That's right. That's right when they want to grow, they want to professionalize the back office, have professional finance savings. Now there's a lot of companies do what we do and since I bought the firm, I've always thought how can we differentiate ourselves? How can we really stand out and bring something to the table? So initially, the first five years of voting the business, I thought that you know we're and it's true, we are very different because we do have a tremendous amount of operational experience. Myself speaking, I've been CEO of companies with as many as 2000 people. I've been general manager of business. When I was in an expat in Mexico, I was general manager for that business after first being the CFO. So we've got tremendous, got tremendous operational experience. I've been interim CEO for one of our clients as strategic CFO. We have that operation, and operations and accounting always have to talk to each other, Sure, but about a year and one month ago, year and two months ago, we really came up with a differentiating factor where yeah. \n\nSo we, you know I've always been against outsourced accounting and I've been asked previously if we do outsource counting. I've always said no and I don't want to do it because the companies that exist today that do the traditional outsource accounting. I have two main problems with them. Number one is that they are very far removed from the operation. They are located somewhere else. They never said foot in the business, so there's not that connection with operations. Number two is that those companies do outsource accounting. They're working on 10 other clients at the same time, so the business doesn't really get the biggest bang for their buck, and that always bugging as being an operating guy. \n\nSo, out of a need, one of our clients who came to us said Dan, we love y'all, we love these two people you have here. They're doing a great job, they find us. They finally got us professional accounting, financial statements and these tools and we budget and forecasting all this stuff. But we can't afford you because we're charging U of S rates and we have to charge US rates. We have to pay our people good wages, fair wages. We have to have a little margin in it. We're not going to become millionaires out of this, but we have to have a margin. So I told the owner. I said you know what? You're right, you can't afford us, you're too small. They were seven million in our business. So I went to the drawing board and came back a couple months later and we have developed now a product called mirror sourcing. Mirror sourcing is outsourced accounting, improved and on steroids. We took those two things that I don't like, which is far removed from the operation and working on multiple clients at once. \n\nSo what we've done with mirror sourcing we will hire an accounting team and it's it starts. It could be a team of two kind of the typical model. It could be one, it could be 10. We actually have one that's 20, but the typical model is a controller and accounting manager. We hire them. They're dedicated to your business and they are on live every day. They only work for you. They are on teams. \n\nYou go to the group and teams and join a meeting. You're talking to your accounting teams, like having them down the hall Monday through Friday. So that that eliminates that they only work for you, they're not working for anybody else. Number two the onboarding of that team and quarterly visits are on site. So the business owner, the operating team, the clerical staff. They get to know the accounting team because the onboarding is there and on according to the basis. They fly in and they sit there and they do a quarterly review review with you and they're usually there three to five days with you at the office, working with you, hand in hand. So now you start developing that relationship. Now you have a connection between the accounting team and the operations and it's dedicated team and we're able to offer that at a 60% savings. That's six zero, wow, that's huge. \n\nYeah, because the team happens to be located in Mexico. Now why Mexico? Mexico? I spent four years in NexFAT there. I got to work with all the big four firms, got to establish a good network over there in Latin America and Mexico and Columbia and other places. There are very strong professionals. And let's just talk about accounting. The accounting professionals. The accounting professionals that we hire usually have big four experience. They work for US companies. They're all bilingual, they speak very good English, they all know US GAAP and they just happen to work remotely for that period of time between their visits and the wages and economy in Mexico is much different than US. \n\nA controller in the US will easily a qualified controller. Let me start with that, because I've seen people labeled controllers that aren't. A qualified controller is the $150,000 person in the US. An accounting manager is going to be $85,000, $90,000 person. In the US. You're spending with benefits and 401k and taxes and everything else. You're going to spend over $300,000, $350,000 on just two people for a small 10 million dollar business. That's a big pill to swallow, sure, we realize that. So we've brought that cost down. So for $12,500 a month, which is less than half of what you'd pay here, you get a team of two qualified professionals dedicated to your business that are providing this professional accounting. \n\nWe started this out of a need with one company we're up to 10 and we had a very. I have got a contact at a very large public-traded company and I was telling her about this over dinner. She came back to me a couple of days later and she goes you know near source thing you told me about, can you scale that up? I said absolutely. Make long story short. We've opened up an office in Monterey, mexico, only for this publicly-traded company of 13 billion and we now have yeah, we now have I think we're at 22 accounts and that's probably going to be over 30 or 40 accounts because again, any business will benefit from reducing costs. \n\nSo this large public-traded company is shifting some accounting rules and it could be AP accounts, payable accounts, receivable fixed assets, inter-company cash applications, whatever the needs are. We're able to provide that a huge savings. So with that we've developed near source and it's a successful model. It applies to any business anywhere in the US but we're able to finally bring professional accounting the work done remotely but it's on-site business every three months for 60% savings. So that's a new differentiating factor for our firm at strategic CFO and we think that's going to really take. It has taken off. We think it's going to be a change, game changer for us and our future as a business. We'll continue to do everything we're doing. \n\nWe're not leaving that, but we're just adding to our revenue stream. \n\nDave: That's really. I really appreciate the innovation of that, and it also just seems like the college students just are not enamored with entering the accounting profession right. There just seems to be staffing shortages and whereas it seems like these countries outside the US there's a greater enthusiasm to do the work. \n\nDan: Yep, there's a large pool. There's a large pool there. You're right. I heard numbers as high as 30% less enrollment in accounting in colleges over the last couple years than historical. So there are less people entering the accounting profession. A lot of them have retired. A lot of people have simply left the accounting profession. \n\nIt can be grueling, it could be long days and long month ends and long quarters, long year ends. So people have found other ways to make a living and that means it's supply and demand. That means the ones that stay in place, that are controllers and account managers. The wages they're demanding higher wages because there's less of them and there's high turnover. That's. \n\nThe other thing is that companies, if they hire us in our near sourcing team, if there's tone or turnover, that's our problem, it's not the company's problem. We will fill in a role, fill in a position, if somebody leaves the near sourcing team and we have such a large stack of resumes that we're able to do this quickly. So now we've got now over 30, 35 accounts in Mexico working for us and we hope to double that number in 2024. So we are going to have a very large pool. We have a formal legal entity, we've got Bank account in Mexico, we've got any in Mexico. Payroll in Mexico. We're paying our taxes in Mexico, so it's all legit. It's all meeting all the guidelines and labor requirements that we do in Mexico. But even with all that, we're able to save US businesses a tremendous amount of money. \n\nDave: That's awesome, and I was just reading about a new Department of Labor ruling making it even more difficult for companies to have contractors. There's always this desire by the federal government to have as few people classified as contractors as possible, and it seems like your model avoids those issues as well, because these aren't even US contractors. Right, that's right. \n\nDan: That's correct. Yeah, they're all our employees but they're through a Mexican entity that we have down in Mexico. I failed to mention that. Each team is supervised by one of the controllers we have here in Texas. That controller is available if the client says, hey, I need to see somebody tomorrow. You know, all right, fine, controller myself can the car and go see the client and a month end all the. We have quality control. \n\nThe controller here in Houston reviews a month and reports, meets with the team several times during the week. So the controller usually supervises three or four teams and that's how we're splitting it up. So the controller is busy full time. We'll continue to hire local controllers in Houston because we need more supervisors and are supervising these accounting teams in Mexico. So we do have local support and, being the strategic CFO, our specialty is CFOs, so we actually bring that to the table also. So a company, by signing up with us for the near sourcing, yes, they get the team, but they also get the support of our firm at the CFO level. So I've attended many bank meetings, many business owner meetings you know, strategic meetings with business owners because they are our clients and we're able to provide that CFO support by them joining our near sourcing model. \n\nDave: Now I really, I really love that and I, you know, our clients tend to be similar to yours, you know, except all of our clients are privately held. You know median annual revenues probably 60 or $75 million, and so here's a question so there's obviously a cost to professionalizing the back office accounting function. \n\nDan: What are? \n\nDave: some of the financial benefits to having more. So, as I mentioned, there's a cost to professionalizing your back office, right, but I'm sure there's also financial benefit. What are some of the financial benefits that you've seen from companies who do upgrade their accounting function, the quality of their financial statement? I mean, I can imagine some benefits, but what are some of the benefits you've seen? \n\nDan: Great question and oftentimes a new business owner that I meet will ask me the same question. So my response is if you do not do this, if you do not spend money on professional accounting we call US GAAP accounting whatever books and records you're keeping are wrong Period they're wrong. The most common example is cash basis account. If you manufacture widgets or you install something or you have contracts and you do not have the professional US GAAP accounting, you do not have a true picture of your margins Period Because it's cash basis. The world we live in is a world of accrual accounting and I don't want to get into accounting and accruals and all that, but it's a timing difference. The easiest example is an invoice and a counter-sealable. That is, in essence, the most basic example of an accrual. We have a timing difference. That's the economy we live in. Unless you sell the company that does not need professional accounting like we provide, is the guy who has a hamburger stand and sells burgers for cash and receives every day, for example, a little bit bigger than the hamburger stand or hotdog stand. We really can't help. For example, a fast food business that's point of sale. They sell a burger and fries and they collect At the franchisee level. At that small business level, they're not going to benefit from US GAAP accounting. Now the company that owns them and has multiple franchises will, because they've got accruals, they've got vendors and they've got this and they've got that and they buy machines the cash basis transaction. In the most simplest explanation, if I sell you something for cash and I don't have any inventory and I don't have any receivable or any payable or anything else, and I don't buy equipment, they don't need us. But that's a tiny business. That's what the US government calls a micro business. The companies we deal with are not micro businesses. The company we deal with have employees, they've got insurance, they buy equipment, they have inventory or they have complicated services or they have contracts that go over 30 days. \n\nThere's some nuance and by not having professional accounting, you don't have a good financial statement. If you don't have a good income statement, how do you know your margins? How do you know what you really have? How do you know if you're losing money? By having them, not only do you have good reporting tools, but we've also increased your enterprise value. \n\nI've had several investment bankers tell me over the years that the difference between having the professional accounting versus not is at least a multiple of one of enterprise value. That's huge. If you've got a business that does a million dollars of EBITDA, that's a multiple of one. We just added a million dollars of value by bringing a professional accounting to your business. Not only does it help you in the short term which is running the business, because now you understand your margins and you're able to forecast and plan your cash flow and determine if you're going to reinvest in your business but we're also adding value on a long-term basis enterprise value those are the benefits and we're never going to cost you that added value that we bring to the table. We're not going to cost you a million dollars a year, but we're adding that value and what about Most business owners? \n\nDave: will listen yeah and I can also imagine that, let's say, their bank starts requiring reviews or audits. I'm guessing that the audit fees by the accounting firm are probably going to be less if you're providing them professional financial statements that are gap basis already. \n\nDan: That's right. So if somebody, first of all, I would recommend that everybody go through an audit because it's just good to have. But if you're required to have an audit, yes, an audit firm which we do not do audits we're not a CPA firm, but an audit firm will come in and do an audit First of all, they cannot complete an audit if you don't have professional accounting Right. So what the audit firm is going to tell you is you need to hire somebody, get your books and records per US gap so we can audit you. Otherwise, we're going to audit you and you're going to have a qualified opinion because you don't meet any of the accounting principles. And the audit firm cannot do that service for you because they get conflicted out. \n\nDave: They can audit their own work. 30 years ago, I think they had more latitude. \n\nDan: Yes, yeah, before my prior employer, enron, before Enron in 2000,. You know, the Sarbanes Oxley was formed. A lot of accounting principles were changed at that time. I think it was at that time that it was required that if you have to split your services, if you're going to be auditing, you can't be consulting and you can't be auditing your own work. So, and we've been hired by companies that are going through an audit, and audit firms have contacted us and said hey, I have a client, here's what they need help on to get their books and records to this professional level. And we are hired by the client. The audit firm comes in later, after we're done, and they can complete their audit and we're able to save us some money by doing that. \n\nDave: But yes, I know that makes sense. What do you enjoy most about your role with the company? \n\nDan: I love dealing with businesses that trust us and I've got, and most of our clients do, 95% of our clients do, or 99. We may have one or two that don't believe yet because we're still new, but I love getting involved with the business owner or business owners that trust us and they allow us to deliver over time. Because it takes time, it doesn't happen overnight. It'll take three or four months to develop a relationship. It'll develop six or eight months to finally get things really where they're seeing the deliverables. But I love seeing the transformation and we've got many examples in our firm of transformation where a company started with no financial reporting that was accurate to really good financial reporting and cash flow forecasts and budgeting and financial models where we interpret that data and everything's working. So watching that transformation is very rewarding. That's what I love the most and I love dealing with business owners on the operating side where we can add value as well. \n\nDave: Sure, yeah, no, I can certainly relate to that. Well, I can't believe how fast this time has flown by. I've just a couple of kind of fun questions for you. Are you ready for some outside the box questions? Bring it on, I love it Awesome. So let's say you could go back in time and give advice to your 25 year old self. What advice might you give to your 25 year old self with the benefit of you know, the last few decades? \n\nDan: If I were to go back to my 25 year old self, I'd say start saving money early. And that's what I tell my children. We had a discussion over Christmas In your early 20s. Unless you're really smart and talented and I wasn't you don't understand the time value of money and compounding interest. \n\nDave: Yeah. \n\nDan: Like you do now. And if I literally told my kids to go for Christmas, we had this exact same discussion. I said you know, take 25% of your paycheck and put it away in some account that you're never going to touch, yeah, don't even think about it. And by the time you're 50 or 60, you're going to see a huge nest egg and it's going to feel very rewarding. That's something I would do differently. I was. \n\nI got married late, you know, I was 34. So I worked hard. In my 20s I was already working for very large companies in nice positions controller roles. In my time I was 30 controller roles. So I was busy with making good money but also spending money, you know, getting the nice. I was really focused on getting the nice car, you know, traveling and, you know, not so focused on planning ahead and planning a family. Then I stumbled onto my beautiful wife and said, oh my God, I got to get married, you know. And then you know, soon after, kids, and then you know the house, and then but so anyway, that's the long response I would say early, mid 25, start saving early. \n\nDave: Okay, yeah, I see I read a study once that said and it was a crazy number Like if you saved a certain you know amount of money you know call it $10,000 a year from the time you were 22 until you were 30, and then you stop saving, you never saved again. You'd have more money, like when you were 65 or seven. Then if you started saving at like 40, and you saved that $10,000 a year for 25 years, like you'd end up with less money than saving for eight years early on, which just demonstrates that whole time value of money. I think Einstein said the compound interest was the most amazing invention in the history of the world, or some crazy thing. \n\nDan: It's crazy that the effect on that dollar saved early on is huge, you know, and I think I would do that different. \n\nDave: Okay, well, here's the last question. I guess I have one and a half questions. I have the last fun one and then the last one will just be if there's anything we did and you covered, that we should have but the fun one is barbecue or Tex-Max barbecue. Okay, that's usually the most common answer. I stole that question. We helped Chris Hans, like the managing partner, and Boiler Miller. We were able to help them launch a podcast, and that's one of his standard questions that I've copied. I find it to be a fun question. \n\nDan: It's a tough one. I almost said Tex-Max it's a tough one, or? \n\nDave: I guess I should have asked you barbecue Tex-Max or authentic Colombian food. \n\nDan: Yeah, I'd still go with barbecue or Tex-Max. Yeah, club with food is okay. I find it to be a little bit blander, but it's okay, that's good, I'm gonna knock it. My Colombian friends will hate me, but I don't know. It's good. \n\nDave: Well, is there anything that I didn't ask you that you wish I? \n\nDan: had. Well, maybe you know one other comment that I'd like to add about our firm, which is a little bit differentiated. Facts is, we have a lot of good international experience, not just myself, but my managing director, oscar Pinoe, cindy Dinn. They both have tremendous audit and international experience, oscar also interesting. If we haven't made it, let me tell you Oscar's story. We actually met in a small town in Argentina 23, 24 years ago when we were both at Weatherford. I hired him when I was in at Weatherford as controller for Latin America and he was an accountant that I hired. He ended up staying at Weatherford for 20 plus years, did very well, grew throughout the. \n\nYou know the ladder at Weatherford and he left Weatherford a couple years ago and joined our firm. But we've got tremendous international experience, tremendous operational experience that could also add value to companies. \n\nDave: So okay, well, yeah, that is great to know. Well, Dan. And then, if people want to learn more about the services, what's the best place to learn more Best? \n\nDan: place to go to is our webpage, strategiccfocom. There's two C's in the middle there strategiccfocom. Or just call my cell phone. You know I don't mind people call my cell phone 713-501-7481. But we're still small enough that we touch every client I do. I like meeting all our clients and spending time with them. We're very involved with all of them. Myself and our managing directors are available to any one of our clients at any time. So yeah, we'd love to continue Jim's legacy and continue to build this firm. \n\nDave: That's awesome. Well, Dan, thank you again for spending time with me today. I know the listeners are really good. Thank you, David. More and especially this near sourcing model. I think that's really intriguing, and I hope you have a great day. \n\nDan: Thank you very much, appreciate your time and thanks for having me All right. Special Guest: Dan Corredor.","content_html":"In today's episode of the IC-DISC show, I sit down with Dan Corredor, the owner of Strategic CFO, to discuss how his firm is revolutionizing the accounting landscape through near-shoring in Mexico. We explore Dan's journey starting in Colombia and arriving in Houston, where his bilingual skills have helped Strategic CFO carveout a unique niche.
\n\nOur conversation reveals how Strategic CFO blends accounting expertise with innovative strategies to strengthen businesses from the inside out. Through insights on US GAAP, technology, and building capable teams, Dan shows us why accounting is about more than compliance - it's about fostering strategic growth.
\n\nNear the end, Dan offers us personal anecdotes about cultivating early savings habits and his culinary interests. Our discussion provides a blueprint for navigating accounting challenges with an international perspective and strategic foresight to propel businesses higher.
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SHOW HIGHLIGHTS
\n\n![](\"https://assets.fireside.fm/file/fireside-images/podcasts/images/d/d61cedee-227d-47c8-8d74-3407972d4afc/guests/6/665f15c6-41d8-4af3-9fe9-f746d9df3895/avatar_small.jpg?v=2\"){kind=avatar} | \nDan Corredor | \n
(AI transcript provided as supporting material and may contain errors)
\n\nDan: Good morning David. Thanks for having me. My pleasure, my pleasure.
\n\nDave: So where are you calling in from today? What part of the world are you in?
\n\nDan: So we are in Shurgland, texas, which is a suburb of Houston, houston, gotcha.
\n\nDave: So let's so. You're a native of Houston.
\n\nDan: No, I was actually born in Bogota, colombia, in South America.
\n\nDave: Okay.
\n\nDan: My family moved to the States when I was a baby about six months old, grew up First 10 years in Ohio, moved to Houston area in 1976, and we've been here ever since.
\n\nDave: Oh wow, Did y'all speak Spanish at home then?
\n\nDan: We did. That was my first language. My dad always said speak Spanish at home and I don't care what you speak outside of house. We learned English outside the house when I went to school and we still speak Spanish today, and my kids do as well.
\n\nDave: That's awesome. I'm so jealous. My heritage is German and both of my grandmothers were born in the Dakotas in German communities. They only spoke German until they started school, but then they married non-German guys and then it was during World War II where, you know, speaking German was kind of frowned upon, so we lost the language. I'm always jealous of you truly bilingual folks, and bilingual with no accent in either language, because I'm assuming your Spanish has a nice Colombian accent.
\n\nDan: Right, it's pretty good as well. Yeah, it's certainly paid off. I really think that I've gotten a couple of jobs I've had in my career because most of the time I spoke Spanish and could be in Latin America.
\n\nDave: That's awesome and good for you for keeping it going to the next generation. I'm told that's easy to kind of let it slide.
\n\nDan: Especially as kids grow up, you know, get a little bit older and they start talking back in English and we have to kind of remind them. But it works. You know, my kids are not 20 and 21, and they both are fluent Spanish and English.
\n\nDave: That's awesome. What a great skill set to launch them into the world with.
\n\nDan: Yeah, we're proud of them.
\n\nDave: That's great. So you end up in Houston at some point, at least when you went to college.
\n\nDan: Yes, I went to University of Houston, got an accounting degree there and I started working in Houston in oil and gas production first, and then oil and gas services. So yeah, it's always been in Houston, except for two years in Dallas and then almost about four years as an expat in Mexico.
\n\nDave: So other than that, always based in Houston- Okay, yeah, I tell people you go through it's like the stages of grief. I tell people that like it's the stages of Houston, right, like when you first get here at least this is what I went through you hate it. There's like it seems like an ugly city. It's flat, you know the traffic, the humidity in the summertime. Then after a while you start to tolerate it and then at some point it kind of gets in your blood and if you ever move away you're like, wow, I really miss that place. That place has got a lot going for it.
\n\nDan: Yeah, I've always enjoyed it. You know I've always liked the Houston area and love Texas. Houston has been great. I love the climate, except for these January February days where you know we made it up in 32 degrees. I don't like that. But I don't mind. It has grown a lot. The last few years has experienced a tremendous amount of growth.
\n\nDave: Especially where you are. Yeah, I remember when Sugar Land was the middle of nowhere, the country it was nothing.
\n\nDan: It was nothing. I remember going to school elementary school we'd go to private school, st Thomas Memorial, and I'd tell kids where I live and I thought I was crazy. You live where you know, but it was only a 30 minute drive back then, so I know.
\n\nDave: Well, let's talk about strategic when. When did you become involved in strategic CFO? When did you acquire it?
\n\nDan: So I acquired the business in October 2017. The business has been around since the mid 90s. The founder, jim Wilkinson, was a colleague of mine and I actually met him in the 90s and it was ironic. I met him because my brother-in-law and his family hired Jim Wilkinson back in 96 or 97 to help him on a project as a CFO and my brother-in-law said, hey, you got to meet this guy. He's a really nice guy. You know, in Houston is your area. So I met him back then and you know, jim and I had similar backgrounds in regards to the type of things. We worked on our personalities, so we would do lunch and breakfast, you know, quarterly or every six months. Over the years Never worked with each other or for each other, but we'd networked a lot and we'd run into each other. We stayed in touch. We even referred business back and forth to each other, so that you know Jim is the founder and started this business, started the brand, did a great name, developing the brand, the strategic CFO, and he started our online business where we sell a membership subscription and some coaching workshops. Jim was very much a strategic coach. He loved the academic side of accounting and operations. He was very involved with the entrepreneurship program at the University of Houston, so all that really strengthened the business.
\n\nAnd, unfortunately, jim went to bed one day in 2017 in the summer and didn't wake up and passed away. So it was really sad. I unfortunately didn't hear about his passing for two or three months afterwards and I was not able to attend his funeral, but I heard it was a beautiful funeral with, you know, a thousand people. So that was Jim. You know he was a network, he had lots of friends and you know so when he passed, I was at a company called Opportun and I was a restructuring group and I was finding an opportunity to love that firm. They've done a great job over there.
\n\nBut when Jim passed, you know, I thought to myself. You know, I've always been, you know, kind of un-perno myself. I've always had the back of my mind wanting to do something on my own. So when Jim passed, I approached the family and asked them what are they going to do with the firm? And they really didn't have a plan of action. So they put me in touch with their attorney and, make long story short, I acquired the firm in October 2017. And it's been great ever since. This is a year six. I can't believe we've already been here six years and we've had a great firm, great growth. We've got really good people. The brand continues to build and strength and it's a well-known brand and I meet a lot of people that a new Jim you know, and they go yeah, I knew Jim, you know, and congrats for taking over Jim's business.
\n\nYou know, so to me it's a privilege to take on his legacy.
\n\nDave: Yeah, no, I really like Jim. I think the last time I had dinner with him he had a restaurant I forget where it was in West U that he liked to go to and we'd had dinner or drinks probably after work one day, but that was about a year before his passing, and also like you. Well, no, I think I did hear about it, but I was out of town, I was in, I was out of state and was not able to make the funeral. But same thing I heard. Yeah it was well attended.
\n\nWell, I'm glad that you reached out to the family because I'm sure they were. His wife was likely in shock from the whole thing. And so that probably worked out well that there was somebody that she knew him had a clean relationship with. So that's great. So talk to me about who are the companies that you all are best set up to serve what's really your sweet spot and who you really can add value to Right.
\n\nDan: So people ask us what are the typical companies you work on and boy it's a wide range Our clients, our smallest clients probably seven million in revenue, and our largest client is literally a 13 billion public and trade company.
\n\nDave: So it's a wide range.
\n\nDan: Now what's right down kind of the middle of the fairway? It's that typical entrepreneur or family owned business that started small and grew and is now doing 40, 50, 80 million hours in revenue and they need to professionalize the back office. It's the companies that started with very basic financial statements and cash reporting and things like that and have bookkeepers and then they move on and now their bank or their partners or investors somebody or the business owner needs professional financial statements. So we professionalize the back office, we professionalize your financial statements. I always explain to business I have this same discussion almost every single day with business owners there's a difference between bookkeeping and accounting and everybody knows bookkeeping. Everybody does bookkeeping. Bookkeeping is entering transactions into a system. You enter a PAR, you push a button, generate a report. That's bookkeeping. We don't do bookkeeping. We don't do that clerical, administrative entering transactions. We will do it as support staff, but we do accounting. We apply accounting principles based on US GAF to those transactions and it starts with everything on the P&L and everything on the balance sheet. You can go to line by line and there are some accounting principles that apply to each one of those transactions. Perfect example Yesterday I was at a client meeting.
\n\nIt's been a fairly new client and they have a lot of manual processes and the transactions on the bookkeeping side. And we said, hey, we can automate this and then all you're going to need is the controller and the accounting manager. And his response is wait a minute, but if you automate all this transactions, I don't need anybody. And I was like well, you're automating the bookkeeping, you're not automating the accounting. Somebody has to apply the knowledge of accounting principles to all those transactions to make sure you have the right P&L and the right balance sheet. But if you just do the bookkeeping, then all you have, in whatever accounting system you're using, is transactions in a system that are really meaningless because you don't have the right margins, you don't have the right assets, you don't have the right liabilities, because you're not applying accounting principles.
\n\nSo oftentimes we find ourselves as a firm educating and coaching the business owners on what is accounting. Why do they need financial statements based on US GAAP? It's not just for the public and credit companies that are trading on the Dow Jones, it's not for those billion dollar companies Every business if you don't have the proper financial statements the financial we call it financial tools, because it's more than just financial statements. If you don't have good financial tools, how do you make decisions in your business? How do you know what projects are making money and not making money truly based on accounting principles, not on a cash basis? So we have to often educate them.
\n\nSo our ideal company is one. Well, one is the entrepreneur or business owner that wants to listen, because we have some that they don't know what they don't know and they think. I had one business owner not too long ago, probably four months ago, telling me that these financial tools and financial statements are just purple unicorns. I was like, okay, so if somebody doesn't want to accept the fact that I've been doing this for 32 years and we know what financial statements are and how they improve your business, if that business owner thinks that they know more than we do, we can help them. If they don't want to be coached, if they don't want to listen, we can't, and we've run into those.
\n\nWe've run into business owners that they think they know everything. They've run their business 20, 30 years, which they run very well. They have good widgets that they make, but they don't know anything about financial statements or accounting principles. So that's the ideal client when it's coachable when it allows us to bring process and procedures and US gap so that they can have not only good financial statements, which are all historical in nature, but also what do we do with that data? Now we have to interpret that historical information, forecast it, analyze it, look at margins so that the business owner can make better decisions about the future. And we that's hence our name, strategic CFO we always want to think strategically. What do we do with that data? To interpret it so that we can properly forecast and know where the business is going and keep it financially healthy. The balance sheet and the P&L are going to describe to you the health of the business and we want to make sure it stays healthy. So that's the ideal client.
\n\nDave: So it sounds like yeah. So it sounds like really it's. Companies are kind of a victim of their own success. You know, companies who have, I mean, a $5 million company who stays static for 20 years, you know probably can't add as much value, but that $5 million company that quadruples in revenue over five to 10 years, where they outgrow their accounting system, their processes, the team. It sounds like that's where the opportunity starts, with you all.
\n\nDan: That's right. That's right when they want to grow, they want to professionalize the back office, have professional finance savings. Now there's a lot of companies do what we do and since I bought the firm, I've always thought how can we differentiate ourselves? How can we really stand out and bring something to the table? So initially, the first five years of voting the business, I thought that you know we're and it's true, we are very different because we do have a tremendous amount of operational experience. Myself speaking, I've been CEO of companies with as many as 2000 people. I've been general manager of business. When I was in an expat in Mexico, I was general manager for that business after first being the CFO. So we've got tremendous, got tremendous operational experience. I've been interim CEO for one of our clients as strategic CFO. We have that operation, and operations and accounting always have to talk to each other, Sure, but about a year and one month ago, year and two months ago, we really came up with a differentiating factor where yeah.
\n\nSo we, you know I've always been against outsourced accounting and I've been asked previously if we do outsource counting. I've always said no and I don't want to do it because the companies that exist today that do the traditional outsource accounting. I have two main problems with them. Number one is that they are very far removed from the operation. They are located somewhere else. They never said foot in the business, so there's not that connection with operations. Number two is that those companies do outsource accounting. They're working on 10 other clients at the same time, so the business doesn't really get the biggest bang for their buck, and that always bugging as being an operating guy.
\n\nSo, out of a need, one of our clients who came to us said Dan, we love y'all, we love these two people you have here. They're doing a great job, they find us. They finally got us professional accounting, financial statements and these tools and we budget and forecasting all this stuff. But we can't afford you because we're charging U of S rates and we have to charge US rates. We have to pay our people good wages, fair wages. We have to have a little margin in it. We're not going to become millionaires out of this, but we have to have a margin. So I told the owner. I said you know what? You're right, you can't afford us, you're too small. They were seven million in our business. So I went to the drawing board and came back a couple months later and we have developed now a product called mirror sourcing. Mirror sourcing is outsourced accounting, improved and on steroids. We took those two things that I don't like, which is far removed from the operation and working on multiple clients at once.
\n\nSo what we've done with mirror sourcing we will hire an accounting team and it's it starts. It could be a team of two kind of the typical model. It could be one, it could be 10. We actually have one that's 20, but the typical model is a controller and accounting manager. We hire them. They're dedicated to your business and they are on live every day. They only work for you. They are on teams.
\n\nYou go to the group and teams and join a meeting. You're talking to your accounting teams, like having them down the hall Monday through Friday. So that that eliminates that they only work for you, they're not working for anybody else. Number two the onboarding of that team and quarterly visits are on site. So the business owner, the operating team, the clerical staff. They get to know the accounting team because the onboarding is there and on according to the basis. They fly in and they sit there and they do a quarterly review review with you and they're usually there three to five days with you at the office, working with you, hand in hand. So now you start developing that relationship. Now you have a connection between the accounting team and the operations and it's dedicated team and we're able to offer that at a 60% savings. That's six zero, wow, that's huge.
\n\nYeah, because the team happens to be located in Mexico. Now why Mexico? Mexico? I spent four years in NexFAT there. I got to work with all the big four firms, got to establish a good network over there in Latin America and Mexico and Columbia and other places. There are very strong professionals. And let's just talk about accounting. The accounting professionals. The accounting professionals that we hire usually have big four experience. They work for US companies. They're all bilingual, they speak very good English, they all know US GAAP and they just happen to work remotely for that period of time between their visits and the wages and economy in Mexico is much different than US.
\n\nA controller in the US will easily a qualified controller. Let me start with that, because I've seen people labeled controllers that aren't. A qualified controller is the $150,000 person in the US. An accounting manager is going to be $85,000, $90,000 person. In the US. You're spending with benefits and 401k and taxes and everything else. You're going to spend over $300,000, $350,000 on just two people for a small 10 million dollar business. That's a big pill to swallow, sure, we realize that. So we've brought that cost down. So for $12,500 a month, which is less than half of what you'd pay here, you get a team of two qualified professionals dedicated to your business that are providing this professional accounting.
\n\nWe started this out of a need with one company we're up to 10 and we had a very. I have got a contact at a very large public-traded company and I was telling her about this over dinner. She came back to me a couple of days later and she goes you know near source thing you told me about, can you scale that up? I said absolutely. Make long story short. We've opened up an office in Monterey, mexico, only for this publicly-traded company of 13 billion and we now have yeah, we now have I think we're at 22 accounts and that's probably going to be over 30 or 40 accounts because again, any business will benefit from reducing costs.
\n\nSo this large public-traded company is shifting some accounting rules and it could be AP accounts, payable accounts, receivable fixed assets, inter-company cash applications, whatever the needs are. We're able to provide that a huge savings. So with that we've developed near source and it's a successful model. It applies to any business anywhere in the US but we're able to finally bring professional accounting the work done remotely but it's on-site business every three months for 60% savings. So that's a new differentiating factor for our firm at strategic CFO and we think that's going to really take. It has taken off. We think it's going to be a change, game changer for us and our future as a business. We'll continue to do everything we're doing.
\n\nWe're not leaving that, but we're just adding to our revenue stream.
\n\nDave: That's really. I really appreciate the innovation of that, and it also just seems like the college students just are not enamored with entering the accounting profession right. There just seems to be staffing shortages and whereas it seems like these countries outside the US there's a greater enthusiasm to do the work.
\n\nDan: Yep, there's a large pool. There's a large pool there. You're right. I heard numbers as high as 30% less enrollment in accounting in colleges over the last couple years than historical. So there are less people entering the accounting profession. A lot of them have retired. A lot of people have simply left the accounting profession.
\n\nIt can be grueling, it could be long days and long month ends and long quarters, long year ends. So people have found other ways to make a living and that means it's supply and demand. That means the ones that stay in place, that are controllers and account managers. The wages they're demanding higher wages because there's less of them and there's high turnover. That's.
\n\nThe other thing is that companies, if they hire us in our near sourcing team, if there's tone or turnover, that's our problem, it's not the company's problem. We will fill in a role, fill in a position, if somebody leaves the near sourcing team and we have such a large stack of resumes that we're able to do this quickly. So now we've got now over 30, 35 accounts in Mexico working for us and we hope to double that number in 2024. So we are going to have a very large pool. We have a formal legal entity, we've got Bank account in Mexico, we've got any in Mexico. Payroll in Mexico. We're paying our taxes in Mexico, so it's all legit. It's all meeting all the guidelines and labor requirements that we do in Mexico. But even with all that, we're able to save US businesses a tremendous amount of money.
\n\nDave: That's awesome, and I was just reading about a new Department of Labor ruling making it even more difficult for companies to have contractors. There's always this desire by the federal government to have as few people classified as contractors as possible, and it seems like your model avoids those issues as well, because these aren't even US contractors. Right, that's right.
\n\nDan: That's correct. Yeah, they're all our employees but they're through a Mexican entity that we have down in Mexico. I failed to mention that. Each team is supervised by one of the controllers we have here in Texas. That controller is available if the client says, hey, I need to see somebody tomorrow. You know, all right, fine, controller myself can the car and go see the client and a month end all the. We have quality control.
\n\nThe controller here in Houston reviews a month and reports, meets with the team several times during the week. So the controller usually supervises three or four teams and that's how we're splitting it up. So the controller is busy full time. We'll continue to hire local controllers in Houston because we need more supervisors and are supervising these accounting teams in Mexico. So we do have local support and, being the strategic CFO, our specialty is CFOs, so we actually bring that to the table also. So a company, by signing up with us for the near sourcing, yes, they get the team, but they also get the support of our firm at the CFO level. So I've attended many bank meetings, many business owner meetings you know, strategic meetings with business owners because they are our clients and we're able to provide that CFO support by them joining our near sourcing model.
\n\nDave: Now I really, I really love that and I, you know, our clients tend to be similar to yours, you know, except all of our clients are privately held. You know median annual revenues probably 60 or $75 million, and so here's a question so there's obviously a cost to professionalizing the back office accounting function.
\n\nDan: What are?
\n\nDave: some of the financial benefits to having more. So, as I mentioned, there's a cost to professionalizing your back office, right, but I'm sure there's also financial benefit. What are some of the financial benefits that you've seen from companies who do upgrade their accounting function, the quality of their financial statement? I mean, I can imagine some benefits, but what are some of the benefits you've seen?
\n\nDan: Great question and oftentimes a new business owner that I meet will ask me the same question. So my response is if you do not do this, if you do not spend money on professional accounting we call US GAAP accounting whatever books and records you're keeping are wrong Period they're wrong. The most common example is cash basis account. If you manufacture widgets or you install something or you have contracts and you do not have the professional US GAAP accounting, you do not have a true picture of your margins Period Because it's cash basis. The world we live in is a world of accrual accounting and I don't want to get into accounting and accruals and all that, but it's a timing difference. The easiest example is an invoice and a counter-sealable. That is, in essence, the most basic example of an accrual. We have a timing difference. That's the economy we live in. Unless you sell the company that does not need professional accounting like we provide, is the guy who has a hamburger stand and sells burgers for cash and receives every day, for example, a little bit bigger than the hamburger stand or hotdog stand. We really can't help. For example, a fast food business that's point of sale. They sell a burger and fries and they collect At the franchisee level. At that small business level, they're not going to benefit from US GAAP accounting. Now the company that owns them and has multiple franchises will, because they've got accruals, they've got vendors and they've got this and they've got that and they buy machines the cash basis transaction. In the most simplest explanation, if I sell you something for cash and I don't have any inventory and I don't have any receivable or any payable or anything else, and I don't buy equipment, they don't need us. But that's a tiny business. That's what the US government calls a micro business. The companies we deal with are not micro businesses. The company we deal with have employees, they've got insurance, they buy equipment, they have inventory or they have complicated services or they have contracts that go over 30 days.
\n\nThere's some nuance and by not having professional accounting, you don't have a good financial statement. If you don't have a good income statement, how do you know your margins? How do you know what you really have? How do you know if you're losing money? By having them, not only do you have good reporting tools, but we've also increased your enterprise value.
\n\nI've had several investment bankers tell me over the years that the difference between having the professional accounting versus not is at least a multiple of one of enterprise value. That's huge. If you've got a business that does a million dollars of EBITDA, that's a multiple of one. We just added a million dollars of value by bringing a professional accounting to your business. Not only does it help you in the short term which is running the business, because now you understand your margins and you're able to forecast and plan your cash flow and determine if you're going to reinvest in your business but we're also adding value on a long-term basis enterprise value those are the benefits and we're never going to cost you that added value that we bring to the table. We're not going to cost you a million dollars a year, but we're adding that value and what about Most business owners?
\n\nDave: will listen yeah and I can also imagine that, let's say, their bank starts requiring reviews or audits. I'm guessing that the audit fees by the accounting firm are probably going to be less if you're providing them professional financial statements that are gap basis already.
\n\nDan: That's right. So if somebody, first of all, I would recommend that everybody go through an audit because it's just good to have. But if you're required to have an audit, yes, an audit firm which we do not do audits we're not a CPA firm, but an audit firm will come in and do an audit First of all, they cannot complete an audit if you don't have professional accounting Right. So what the audit firm is going to tell you is you need to hire somebody, get your books and records per US gap so we can audit you. Otherwise, we're going to audit you and you're going to have a qualified opinion because you don't meet any of the accounting principles. And the audit firm cannot do that service for you because they get conflicted out.
\n\nDave: They can audit their own work. 30 years ago, I think they had more latitude.
\n\nDan: Yes, yeah, before my prior employer, enron, before Enron in 2000,. You know, the Sarbanes Oxley was formed. A lot of accounting principles were changed at that time. I think it was at that time that it was required that if you have to split your services, if you're going to be auditing, you can't be consulting and you can't be auditing your own work. So, and we've been hired by companies that are going through an audit, and audit firms have contacted us and said hey, I have a client, here's what they need help on to get their books and records to this professional level. And we are hired by the client. The audit firm comes in later, after we're done, and they can complete their audit and we're able to save us some money by doing that.
\n\nDave: But yes, I know that makes sense. What do you enjoy most about your role with the company?
\n\nDan: I love dealing with businesses that trust us and I've got, and most of our clients do, 95% of our clients do, or 99. We may have one or two that don't believe yet because we're still new, but I love getting involved with the business owner or business owners that trust us and they allow us to deliver over time. Because it takes time, it doesn't happen overnight. It'll take three or four months to develop a relationship. It'll develop six or eight months to finally get things really where they're seeing the deliverables. But I love seeing the transformation and we've got many examples in our firm of transformation where a company started with no financial reporting that was accurate to really good financial reporting and cash flow forecasts and budgeting and financial models where we interpret that data and everything's working. So watching that transformation is very rewarding. That's what I love the most and I love dealing with business owners on the operating side where we can add value as well.
\n\nDave: Sure, yeah, no, I can certainly relate to that. Well, I can't believe how fast this time has flown by. I've just a couple of kind of fun questions for you. Are you ready for some outside the box questions? Bring it on, I love it Awesome. So let's say you could go back in time and give advice to your 25 year old self. What advice might you give to your 25 year old self with the benefit of you know, the last few decades?
\n\nDan: If I were to go back to my 25 year old self, I'd say start saving money early. And that's what I tell my children. We had a discussion over Christmas In your early 20s. Unless you're really smart and talented and I wasn't you don't understand the time value of money and compounding interest.
\n\nDave: Yeah.
\n\nDan: Like you do now. And if I literally told my kids to go for Christmas, we had this exact same discussion. I said you know, take 25% of your paycheck and put it away in some account that you're never going to touch, yeah, don't even think about it. And by the time you're 50 or 60, you're going to see a huge nest egg and it's going to feel very rewarding. That's something I would do differently. I was.
\n\nI got married late, you know, I was 34. So I worked hard. In my 20s I was already working for very large companies in nice positions controller roles. In my time I was 30 controller roles. So I was busy with making good money but also spending money, you know, getting the nice. I was really focused on getting the nice car, you know, traveling and, you know, not so focused on planning ahead and planning a family. Then I stumbled onto my beautiful wife and said, oh my God, I got to get married, you know. And then you know, soon after, kids, and then you know the house, and then but so anyway, that's the long response I would say early, mid 25, start saving early.
\n\nDave: Okay, yeah, I see I read a study once that said and it was a crazy number Like if you saved a certain you know amount of money you know call it $10,000 a year from the time you were 22 until you were 30, and then you stop saving, you never saved again. You'd have more money, like when you were 65 or seven. Then if you started saving at like 40, and you saved that $10,000 a year for 25 years, like you'd end up with less money than saving for eight years early on, which just demonstrates that whole time value of money. I think Einstein said the compound interest was the most amazing invention in the history of the world, or some crazy thing.
\n\nDan: It's crazy that the effect on that dollar saved early on is huge, you know, and I think I would do that different.
\n\nDave: Okay, well, here's the last question. I guess I have one and a half questions. I have the last fun one and then the last one will just be if there's anything we did and you covered, that we should have but the fun one is barbecue or Tex-Max barbecue. Okay, that's usually the most common answer. I stole that question. We helped Chris Hans, like the managing partner, and Boiler Miller. We were able to help them launch a podcast, and that's one of his standard questions that I've copied. I find it to be a fun question.
\n\nDan: It's a tough one. I almost said Tex-Max it's a tough one, or?
\n\nDave: I guess I should have asked you barbecue Tex-Max or authentic Colombian food.
\n\nDan: Yeah, I'd still go with barbecue or Tex-Max. Yeah, club with food is okay. I find it to be a little bit blander, but it's okay, that's good, I'm gonna knock it. My Colombian friends will hate me, but I don't know. It's good.
\n\nDave: Well, is there anything that I didn't ask you that you wish I?
\n\nDan: had. Well, maybe you know one other comment that I'd like to add about our firm, which is a little bit differentiated. Facts is, we have a lot of good international experience, not just myself, but my managing director, oscar Pinoe, cindy Dinn. They both have tremendous audit and international experience, oscar also interesting. If we haven't made it, let me tell you Oscar's story. We actually met in a small town in Argentina 23, 24 years ago when we were both at Weatherford. I hired him when I was in at Weatherford as controller for Latin America and he was an accountant that I hired. He ended up staying at Weatherford for 20 plus years, did very well, grew throughout the.
\n\nYou know the ladder at Weatherford and he left Weatherford a couple years ago and joined our firm. But we've got tremendous international experience, tremendous operational experience that could also add value to companies.
\n\nDave: So okay, well, yeah, that is great to know. Well, Dan. And then, if people want to learn more about the services, what's the best place to learn more Best?
\n\nDan: place to go to is our webpage, strategiccfocom. There's two C's in the middle there strategiccfocom. Or just call my cell phone. You know I don't mind people call my cell phone 713-501-7481. But we're still small enough that we touch every client I do. I like meeting all our clients and spending time with them. We're very involved with all of them. Myself and our managing directors are available to any one of our clients at any time. So yeah, we'd love to continue Jim's legacy and continue to build this firm.
\n\nDave: That's awesome. Well, Dan, thank you again for spending time with me today. I know the listeners are really good. Thank you, David. More and especially this near sourcing model. I think that's really intriguing, and I hope you have a great day.
\n\nDan: Thank you very much, appreciate your time and thanks for having me All right.
Special Guest: Dan Corredor.
","summary":"In today's episode of the IC-DISC show, I sit down with Dan Corredor, the owner of Strategic CFO, to discuss how his firm is revolutionizing the accounting landscape through near-shoring in Mexico. We explore Dan's journey starting in Colombia and arriving in Houston, where his bilingual skills have helped Strategic CFO carveout a unique niche. \r\n\r\nOur conversation reveals how Strategic CFO blends accounting expertise with innovative strategies to strengthen businesses from the inside out. Through insights on US GAAP, technology, and building capable teams, Dan shows us why accounting is about more than compliance - it's about fostering strategic growth. \r\n\r\nNear the end, Dan offers us personal anecdotes about cultivating early savings habits and his culinary interests. Our discussion provides a blueprint for navigating accounting challenges with an international perspective and strategic foresight to propel businesses higher. ","date_published":"2024-03-04T09:00:00.000-06:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/d61cedee-227d-47c8-8d74-3407972d4afc/e7edee9d-64a8-42c8-8e51-3833ab7dfb43.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":27812569,"duration_in_seconds":2308}]},{"id":"2a5cf04e-3cf4-4ed4-bc3c-769f3d374d7d","title":"Ep051: Pathways to Successful Business Transitions with Laurie Barkman","url":"https://www.ic-discshow.com/051","content_text":"Today on the IC-DISC show, join us for an insightful discussion with Laurie Barkman, a renowned CEO and author of The Business Transition Handbook. As the acclaimed Business Transition Sherpa, Laurie sheds light on the reality that all business owners will exit someday.\n\nWe explore the challenges of selling a business, like why most small businesses don't sell successfully and the potential pitfalls of an exit.\n\nWe also discuss relying on experienced advisors and how understanding taxes and markets can aid planning. Laurie shares invaluable advice on navigating this critical phase successfully.\n\nThis episode is a must-listen for any business owner planning to navigate their business transition.\n\n\n\n\n\n\n \n\nSHOW HIGHLIGHTS\n\n\nLaurie and I discuss her journey as a CEO and author of The Business Transition Handbook, providing insights into the realities of business transition.\nShe highlights the hard truth of selling a business and how eight out of ten small businesses fail to do so successfully.\nWe talk about the common pitfalls of business transition, the five \"D's\" that can disrupt a business, and the value of creating a satisfied client base.\nLaurie explains the unique challenges law firms face during business transition and offers her strategies for a smooth transition.\nWe delve into the importance of a clear exit plan and the different options business owners have when transitioning their business.\nLaurie advises focusing on three primary goals during business transition: business, personal, and financial.\nWe discuss the analogy of business transition planning to having a sherpa guide you through a treacherous terrain, making the process seem less daunting.\nLaurie emphasizes the significance of accountability in business and the benefits of having industry expert conversations during transition.\nWe explore the upcoming online course based on Laurie's book that she plans to launch in the first quarter of 2024, aiming to reach a wider audience of entrepreneurs.\nWe discuss the importance of having an experienced network of professionals to help businesses reach their goals and create a successful transition plan.\n\n\n\n\nLINKSShow Notes\nBe a Guest\nAbout IC-DISC Alliance\nAbout The Business Transition Sherpa\nAbout The Endgame Entrepreneurship Course\n\n\nGUEST\n\n\n\nLaurie BarkmanAbout Laurie\n\n\n\n\n\nTRANSCRIPT\n\n(AI transcript provided as supporting material and may contain errors)\n\n\nDavid: Hi, this is David Spray. Welcome to another episode of the IC Disc Show. My guest today is Laurie Barkman from Pittsburgh. Laurie is a really fun and interesting guest. She just released her first book entitled the Business Transition Handbook, and she is called in many circles the business transition, the idea being that a Sherpa guides somebody on a journey over a period of time rather than just a one-point event in time. Laurie has an impressive background as a former CEO of a large privately held company. She has a bachelor's and an MBA, and we talked about mistakes business owners make when they're transitioning their business. We talked about the sober reality that 100% every last business owner is going to exit their business and the question is will it be on their terms or someone else's? So there is some great advice and information for any company, any business owner who is looking to exit their business at some point, and I think you'll get a lot of value from this. Good morning, laurie. How are you today? \n\nLaurie: David, hey, great to see you, I'm awesome. \n\nDavid: That is great. Now, where are you located today? \n\nLaurie: I'm in the great city of Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. \n\nDavid: Yes, now are you a native of Pittsburgh. \n\nLaurie: I am not. I am not. I'm an adopted daughter of the city. I'm originally from Albany, New York. \n\nDavid: Okay, so Ithaca wasn't too far to go for you. \n\nLaurie: That's right, it was not. It was only about three hours away. \n\nDavid: Okay, and then what brought you to Pittsburgh? \n\nLaurie: After graduating from college, my husband and I moved around Pennsylvania with different corporations. I was with Aigner Sol Rand Company and I was with a division in Shippensburg and after four years decided to get my masters, get my MBA, and decided to move to Pittsburgh. My husband had gotten a nice job with McKinsey and company and here we are. Okay 25 years later. \n\nDavid: You got your MBA in Pittsburgh, right at Carnegie. \n\nLaurie: Mellon. I did at Carnegie Mellon okay. \n\nDavid: Well, let's dig into this. So the business transition Sherpa. Where did this nickname come from? Did you come up with this yourself, or did somebody else give you that title? \n\nLaurie: You know, it's kind of an amalgamation of things. I remember talking to my husband about a trip that he and I had taken in 1997. We did a trek, we did a hike, and this idea of somebody guiding you and stuck with me. And as I was thinking about what I'm doing, working with business owners, it's not just one moment in time, it's over a period of time, and I really feel like my role is to be a guide. I don't have all the answers. I have a path, I have tools and, just like a Sherpa and the great work that they do, it's that same idea is we're on a journey together. Entrepreneurs build their business, sometimes on their own, but most likely not. Entrepreneurs are building their companies with other people, and so when they get to this other side of the mountain, so to speak, and thinking about their next chapter, why would they go about that by themselves? And I want to be the person that helps guide them. \n\nDavid: Yeah, I love the description of what you do because it picks up the fact that it's a journey, it's not a point in time and it's tough to do by yourself. In my experience I've just closely held small to medium sized business owners. Only sell a business once right, that's right. \n\nLaurie: We can regret things in our experience. We can regret what we do and wish we did something differently, or we do not take an action and we regret not taking that action. And my book the whole reason I wrote the book the business transition handbook was to help people proactively so that they don't have regrets. \n\nIt's a very big, lofty goal to not have regrets in life, but if we can be proactive and we can understand what it takes to build a more valuable, transferable business and then understand what resources we might want to have on our side. I like to say, David, you can't do exit planning when you're exiting. It's just too late. So if you give yourself a time and space to work on having a more valuable, transferable business, the good news is that it's going to be a lot more fun to run your company. It's going to have an economic benefit to you and then in the future you'll have more options. You'll have more valuable options too. \n\nDavid: Yeah, I really enjoyed reading your book. In fact, behind you there, I believe, there's a blown up cover. Yes, it is. \n\nLaurie: That's right. Yeah, it was really interesting to write the book. I guess I could say it's my first book. I don't know that I'll have a second, but this, no matter what, is my first book and it was challenging, but at the same time, it was fun. It was like a giant puzzle. \n\nOnce I mapped out what I believe the big pitfalls are right. So the subtitle of the book is how to avoid succession pitfalls. Each chapter in the book and I don't know if you picked up on this as you were reading it but each chapter is a pitfall. What do you want to avoid? And so what I tried to do was put myself in the reader's seat, the entrepreneur's seat, and how I developed that perspective was from my own experiences, client experiences and then integrating case studies and other learnings from my podcast. \n\nI have a show called Succession Stories that you will be a part of soon, and there are so many valuable things to learn from other people's wins and losses and challenges, and that's what I have always sought out to do with my show. \n\nThe show is about three years old at this point and when I was writing the book, I had, I think, about 120 recordings, so that's a lot of knowledge and content. \n\nAnd what was so fun for me, david, was I was going back into the archives of a discussion. \n\nEvery show I have has a transcript and of course I don't remember everything. \n\nBut when I would write a chapter and I would need a case study, I had space for a case study in that particular spot, for a particular topic I would think, okay, which shows, should I go back to dive into those transcripts and then find these golden nuggets and I it was just so interesting to have the recall in writing of oh yeah, you know, she said that was an amazing conversation, and you, my memories are not long, right, we have so many, only so much storage in our brains, exactly. So it was really cool to go back to that body of knowledge that I had created, and I began to appreciate that body of knowledge even more. I think this case studies bring the book to life. I'd like to hear what you think about that, but that's that's what I hear from my readers is they love the, the learning and the concepts, the business concepts in the book, and they think that it's like me having a conversation with them by sharing these case studies and stories along the way. \n\nDavid: Yeah, I agree there were a number of. I mean, there was a lot of great stuff in there, but some of the particular ones I kind of wanted to dive in with you on is so this is a little bit of a quiz to see how much of your book you remember Do. When somebody, when people, decide to sell their business, do they just automatically sell it or do some portion of them? Are they unable to sell the business? \n\nLaurie: There's a mix, as you can imagine. Yeah, what percentage are you? \n\nDavid: able to actually sell it in the small business space. \n\nLaurie: It's a surprisingly low number. You know the statistics out. There is that every two out of 10 companies in the lower middle market actually sell. So that leaves eight out of 10 not selling. And you could ask, well, why is that? And there's a lot of reasons why. Sometimes along the way we have the five D's kind of pop up, or always also known as the 60s. These D's are taboo things, sometimes we don't want to talk about them, but they're real and we do need to talk about them. It could be the debt of an owner. \n\nIt could be divorce disaster like COVID you know we put it in that category or disaster like fires and the business or the market has experienced is something traumatic it could be. Did I say divorce already? Divorce is another D. So these D's are something we can plan for. We don't want them to happen but we do need to be prepared. So if we're not prepared for the 60s, they can really wreak havoc on a business. Particularly death. The death of an owner can throw a business into a tailspin and I did cover that at some you know level in the book with a couple of episodes, snippets of people who had experienced that. \n\nThe other reason why businesses don't sell, david, is because they're just not transferable. If they are so owner dependent and owner centric, that can be a really big reason why it won't sell and it's hard for owners to see that. You know, sometimes owners think that they are the secret sauce. I have a business assessment that one time I'm marketing. The owner of a marketing firm took this assessment and she said oh my God, she goes. I didn't realize I was standing in the way. She thought she, you know, she's a photographer, she's the creative, she's got the client relationships and she realized at that moment oh my goodness, I am making my company less valuable. \n\nSo there's a pivot in our brains when we recognize some of the elements that help create a more transferable business and companies that have an owner who don't necessarily see the business as an asset, they see it as a job or they see it as a piggy bank. Those are different things, because if you see your business as an asset, you're going to want to create value in that asset over time. You're also going to want to protect that asset. If it's a job, right, I just accepted what is. And it's not growing, it's staying the same. Maybe you're not reinvesting in the business. You're not reinvesting in yourself or your people. \n\nAnd let's just jump to an example. I have a client who, in his favor, had very loyal people Once he got to his sixties, as did his key employees, and everybody's looking to retire. Buyers looking at that business said oh my goodness, how transferable is this business when all the key people are going to retire at the same time? So he had saved money, so to speak, by not bringing in new people, kind of underneath and over a period of training. So he recognizes that now, but it's too late. \n\nDavid: Sure, yeah, I was having this conversation yesterday with a group of CEOs and we were talking about enterprise value, increasing it, owner dependency, and there's a guy that owns a small boutique intellectual property law firm and they were asking him how sellable law firms are in general and he said not very and from his perspective that he said there's things he could do to make the business run without him better. \n\nBut his model that he really likes to work with his clients directly, he doesn't like an associate between them and so that in his and a couple of his clients are actually in the room and they're like, and he's like, yeah, if I had like some associates that could potentially lower the fees to a client, you know, because there's more leverage in the client. So like no, we'd rather pay more and have you. So I've noticed in professional services there's this tradeoff between what. If you really want to have delighted clients, sometimes that's at odds with making your business the most valuable. And I know my business is like that. I mean I've got huge owner dependency issues because I am the key relationship, but I've gotten peace with the fact that it's just not very sellable and I like being a craftsman and just like it hit. \n\nLaurie: Yeah, and that isn't that the important thing. If you recognize it and are accepting of it, hey, you know what? That's okay. Not every business is going to be an asset to sell to another buyer and that's totally okay with the law firm. Just to circle back, because I do have some professional experience with law firms, one of the catch 22 things about law in particular is the code of ethics that they have to abide by. \n\nDavid: The non-competence, the non-compete. \n\nLaurie: Yeah. So if a lawyer leaves a law firm, they you know there's certain restrictions on when they can inform their clients and taking their clients with them, and I know there's lots of gray areas. I'm not going to talk about all of the nuances there. My point is that with law firms also there could be other types of professional services that run into this, but in law in particular what clients will say is that they hire lawyers, not law firms. Yeah, and so when you're tied let's just like you're talking about with that particular partner that the clients are willing to pay more because they want to work with that particular partner it could be highly likely that client would jump and go with them, no matter where they are. That can be particularly concerning for an acquiring firm, knowing that they may have some stickiness to certain clients and then they may not have other stickiness. So it really is dependent If there's a firm that's acquisitive and looking at buying other professional services, whether it's law or any other profession. \n\nI work with engineering firms quite a bit and in engineering firms there might be contracts but those contracts are not assignable and it might influence not only the type of transaction that we would do, whether an asset sale or entity sale, but it also would influence potentially on the transition for the sellers and how long they might want to stay, or the buyers might want them to stay under either an employment agreement or consulting agreement. It could also influence whether or not there's an earn out. You could structure an earn out, for example, if the buyer wants to structure an earn out to ensure a certain percent of those contracts are assigned over whatever time period or year and a half. So it could influence it in a big way. \n\nDavid: Talk to me about, and thank you for that. Talk to me about what you enjoy most, about being a business transition or not. I shouldn't say A, but the business transition, Sure. What are some of the aspects of that in working with those companies that you just find particularly satisfying or rewarding? \n\nLaurie: One of the things that I experienced as a CEO of a privately held company was the loneliness and being in my own head and having big questions and not really knowing where to go. I find that I bring kind of this EQ, if you will, of smarts and know-how and experiences and questions, and then I bring excuse me, the IQ around that, then the EQ, which is more of the emotional side. I've always been a kind of person that people confide in. Obviously, this is a highly confidential type of scenario but, I talk with my clients about the business. \n\nfor sure, that's the practical side of everything, but we also talk about the personal side. We have to talk about them because remember earlier in our conversation I talked about regrets and there's some alarming statistics out there about experiencing regrets at least one year after the sale. I'm kind of on this mission to help business owners find clarity, and find clarity in a way that makes sense for them, for their family, for their stakeholders, which includes employees and other shareholders and their communities that they serve. A lot of people feel after a transaction that they let so-and-so down. Maybe they let their employees down, maybe they let their communities down. \n\nI had a guy in my show whose family business fourth generation chlorine cleaning product was sold in grocery stores and he could not walk down the aisle anymore. He couldn't bear to see that product under another name or by another. He said, yeah, there was a pride. We used to the small town and we had our name on the baseball team and people knew who I was. The identity that this particular person had his family name was on the company. Identity is a really big part of it, david. \n\nPeople go through almost like a withdrawal If they're not excited about what's next, this pull factor, what's pulling you forward to your next thing? If we're not excited about it, it can be really. You can imagine worst case scenarios. Those things do happen. But the in-between space is not that great either, for what makes me feel that I'm helping entrepreneurs? \n\nI've always orbited entrepreneurs with a great respect for the risk that they take. I've come to know family businesses as a category. Also. There's the founder-led, family-led, privately held company. I've worked in venture backed, so no offense to venture backed folks, but they're not really a focus for me. I'm really focused on call it the bootstrapped or family-led companies where they're the everyday entrepreneur making it happen. \n\nThe sense of clarity clarity on three core types of goals is where we focus business, personal and financial. There's a lot of work to be done there. I think that's what makes me motivated, makes me feel appreciated by my clients. They are awesome people. I work with some amazing people that are doing really wonderful things for their community, for their family. They have excellent intentions. They just don't know how to put it all together. I don't either. I don't have all the answers, as I said earlier, but what I do have is I have an awesome Rolodex and I have an awesome way to bring professionals together and collaborate and help my client assemble a business owner transition team advisory team to help them make big decisions along the way. Again, this clarity is the number one thing that I think my clients benefit from. \n\nDavid: Yeah, no, that's really important because, as you talk about in the book, unfortunately 100% of the business owners are going to exit the business, just like 100% of us are going to exit this earth. I was thinking when you were talking about that fourth generation gentleman who couldn't walk down the grocery aisle, but it's one of those things, but it wasn't like he really had. He must not have had a great way to avoid that, because he wasn't going to run the business forever. So you come into what are the options? Basically, if somebody's not immortal, what are the options to exit a business? Because there's several paths, right? \n\nLaurie: Yeah, absolutely. Just to finish the statement with 100% of business owners are going to leave one day, there's a big however, you know. However, very few are planning for that day To leave on their terms, and when we have a plan, we're more likely to achieve it. That's just how it works, right. That's why we do strategic planning for businesses. So why don't we do strategic planning for our exit or our transition? And that's really the main advocacy I have in the book is let's have a process, let's have an understanding of what it takes. So to your question I think I address it quite a bit in one of my favorite chapters, which I think is chapter six, which is who should own your business after you, and it shines a spotlight on the different kinds of buyers. \n\nWhen I do workshops, david, I do webinars and I do in-person workshops, and I put up this slide and I have essentially three columns and I go through some examples of each bucket three buckets and people's eyes light up, they take out their camera, they start taking photos of this one particular slide and it is enlightening because we hear about certain kinds of buyers and we don't know that there might be other options out there and maybe not every option is a fit. So what I advocate for is let's understand what are some exit options for your company and which ones might be a better fit than others, and why let's prioritize those and let's come up with option A, b, c and if option A doesn't work out, then we know we've got an option B. It's just like in any negotiation If you have the power to walk away, then you know you're going to get the right deal for you. It's when you don't feel that you have any other options that you feel pinched. So that's why back to the conversation about the five or sixties if an owner passes away and the company is going in a tailspin, with employees leaving and the spouse doesn't know what to do, and they've inherited this company. They've never worked in it, it's a mess and the buyers come out like sharks and there's chum in the water. \n\nWe want to avoid that. We want to avoid that. So, yeah, I mean we could talk about what. Who are the different kinds of buyers, if you want. \n\nDavid: Sure, yeah, because I mean, I, just off the top of my head, we've got passing it on to the next generation selling it to the employees. A third party buyer? What are some of the other options? \n\nLaurie: Yeah, let me just frame it out and that way, visually, I'm kind of working left to right as I talked about these three columns and I put it in that order for a reason. So the first column is strategic buyers, the middle is financial buyers and the one on the right is related buyers. \n\nSo the examples you mentioned, family and managers would be in the related buyers category. Typically speaking, that is going to be more of a fair market value type of approach to valuing the business, of what price you might expect for your business, and if you kind of go left on that chart then the price expectation should go up right. \n\nDavid: Strategic generally not always generally speaking, will pay the most. \n\nLaurie: And why is that? Well, and also, what's a strategic? So a strategic is an entity, it's a company, it could be a competitor, it could be a marketplace vendor, it could be a customer, it could be an adjacent industry to yours where they want to make moves, either geography wise, or into your industry, if they're not part of it yet. So those are strategic and, typically speaking and this was my experience going through a pretty big M&A transaction with a third generation company that we were acquired by a Fortune 50. And, believe me, they had an M&A playbook and when they're that big and they've done that many transactions, so for us it was understanding what's the fit, what will this look like? And for them, I'm sure, in their financial models, it was about leverage what assets do they keep, what employee teams might they cut and how do they gain some cost leverage? And so that's typical where these pieces of the business might be kind of bolted into something else. Maybe it's standalone, maybe it's bolted in, but that's typically why strategic can pay more, because on the back end, as they're modeling out their financials, they know what costs they're going to take out. We don't necessarily know that, but that's what they're looking at. \n\nFinancial buyer most often we think of private equity firms, and private equity groups will invest on a time horizon roughly five to seven years could be longer and they'll want to buy low, sell high, and so in between, they're investing in that business to improve it, they're putting in management teams and they will take a larger entity, maybe keep it as a standalone and that would be a platform deal. And a platform deal may eventually have other firms acquired to tuck underneath it. Those acquisitions we call tuck ins or add ons. And because they are taking assets and putting them into something larger, you could say, oh well, that kind of sounds like the strategic. And the answer is, yeah, kind of does. So that's why, in a private equity deal, the hybrid, as we might also call it, could, from a multiple standpoint, look more like a strategic offer. So that's just a little financial nuance there. But typically speaking, private equity groups are going to be the biggest, you know, the biggest buyers out there. There's still a lot of dry powder and another big category that I like to spotlight. \n\nWell, there's two others I would put under this financial bucket. One is family offices might be investing in privately held companies in different asset classes. So, for example, I had a family office. Second generation was on my show and he talked about what he and his father's investment thesis is. And they're focused on warehousing, like storage, you know, storage unit for consumer storage so you can rent one for a year or whatever and put your stuff in it. So he liked they like that asset class because it has a recurring revenue model to it. And that's just one example. \n\nAnd what's really interesting, if you compare the time horizons for these investments, well, a family office is looking for a buy and hold, more likely than buying, selling a short period of time. So, as I said earlier about fit, this is where it's really important. If the seller doesn't want to be in a situation where it could be sold to the one fish and gobbled up by another. They want to be held for like a longer period of time and perpetuity. Then maybe they should look to you know, talking with family offices who are doing acquisitions in their space. So that's a category that is kind of under the radar and I just put a spotlight on in the book. \n\nAnd then the third one are ESOPs, which is a you know, think of it like an almost like a 401k program for your people. When they retire from your company, they're incentivized to stay, and when they retire they will get a distribution check, and so an ESOP is an interesting option for some other companies Again, not a fit for everyone, but it might be a fit for companies of a larger size with enough employee base, where, again, you're going to have a liability at some point to pay these people, so you have to be able to fund that. But what happens in that transaction is that the company becomes a tax-free entity, and so that's a real incentive, you know for companies to reinvest and acquire others, and it can be very positive for the culture too, yeah. \n\nDavid: I know quite a bit about ESOPs because you were kind enough to introduce me to Mike Silverman and in fact he and his partner, Matt were, I guess, in my podcast a few episodes ago and it's really interesting on some of the ESOP opportunities. And I'm glad you brought up the family office because, right, people don't think of that. \n\nLaurie: But when? \n\nDavid: I think about the. What I think of philosophically is the super family office. I think about Berkshire Hathaway's acquisition targets. But the problem is I think now they're up to where. When I started reading Warren's annual letters, they were looking for businesses with enterprise value, I think of like 25 million and up, and I think the last I checked it's half a billion or a billion and up. Just because $25 million companies don't move the needle for them. \n\nBut yeah and it's kind of like their sales pitch is similar to the family office sales pitch. So I guess one way to think of it is, if you like being an aquire of Berkshire Hathaway but you're smaller than a half a billion dollars, then maybe a family office might make sense. But even then when you think about Berk acquisition requirements. They want a business that runs independently of them. They do not want to manage the business. So you're right back to. A business that can run without the owner is more valuable for everybody. \n\nLaurie: Yeah, they have the portfolio largely independent of each other. They've kept the brands, I think, pretty separate because they appreciate the brand and the competitive moat, as they like to call it, around that business. I think they look for companies that have a competitive market differentiation, so it makes sense that they don't muddle the water. \n\nDavid: Yeah. \n\nLaurie: Yeah. \n\nDavid: Have there been any positive surprises from writing the book that you didn't anticipate when you wrote? \n\nLaurie: it Surprises. Let me think about that. \n\nI think just the reviews have been so delightful and meaningful to me and I guess I just didn't think about it. I don't know that it's a surprise, it was just. Maybe I could say a surprise and delight just to see how this book is helping people or how they've shared told me that it's helping people. I think that has been a really lovely outcome. As an author, you put good in the world and you hope goodness comes back, or you hope that it's helping, but you don't really know unless people tell you, and so that's been really great, I would say. The other is with my clients. I have my clients and meet with them on a regular basis and I have clients that are reading the book and then when I meet with them they're like, yeah, I just read chapter five, let's talk about it. So this combination of I'm not going to quite do this myself, I'm going to read the book, I'm going to get knowledge, but I still want to work with someone to help me along the way, was really reinforcing that what I expected. I expected that, frankly, and I think it's important. \n\nI do think people can go through this book on their own and at some point in this call give, I'll give the listeners an option to how to make the most of it, but you can do it on your own. You can. What I think is human nature is we want someone to hold us accountable, and that's, I think, not again not necessarily a surprise, but very reinforcing. That is true and that's why just a kind of a pre announcement here I'm going to be creating an online course from the book so that it can help more people in a different way, and hopefully they'll watch the videos and they'll read the book, and I, what I'm aiming to do is reach a wider audience of entrepreneurs, not just the people who are, you know, three to five years out. This is really a book, I think. If you are beyond startup phase but you're growing your business, why not read this book and understand what it's going to take to create a more valuable exit when you're ready? So it's exciting. I'm planning to launch it in the first quarter of 2024. \n\nDavid: Oh, that is exciting. If somebody is interested in learning more about that is do you have any place for them to go yet, or are we too soon? \n\nLaurie: We are too soon, but that's a great idea. I should put up like a waiting list or something on my website, but the businesstransitionhandbookcom is the website page for the blog BusinessTransitionHandbookcom. \n\nYeah, the businesstransitionhandbookcom is a page on my site, so they'll see all other pages too, but this is the landing page for the book, so what I might do is put up I'll put up a blurb at some point about awaiting this for the class. And yeah, no, I'm excited about it. Like I said, I aim to reach more people and help more people with it. \n\nDavid: Yeah, and you know that accountability is interesting, because one of the things I see with our clients is that one of the things that's interesting about our clients is that 90% of them have revenues between 10 and 100 million probably somewhere in the light of your clients and the vast majority of them do not borrow money. They've been financially successful enough. They've been able to, you know, internally find growth and because of in that, in addition to other reasons, and most of these also, it's a single shareholder, they don't have a board, and so these clients have zero accountability, like their only accountability is like to their family, to make sure that you know the monthly income is what they're hoping it would be. \n\nBut you know, they don't have a bank to be accountable to, they don't have a board, they don't have other shareholders, so I can see where that accountability is something that they could be really helpful for them, that they don't really have anywhere else. Now, of course, they may have done that on purpose. Maybe they didn't really like being accountable. You know they were an accountable employee and then they borrowed money from the bank to start a business, so maybe they don't really like me. What do you think? \n\nLaurie: I have a client that's about 120 million revenue business in the call it food production space and he's very purposeful, has very good intentions for transition with his daughter over time and really wants to see her be successful in the company and grow with the company. And his partner, to his credit, said hey, not real name. You know, joe, you're going to want we should do a new operating agreement. You know your daughter's in the business now. She's doing a great job. We need a new operating agreement. \n\nAnd this operating agreement was sitting on my client's desk coffee stains. You know he literally had it in the corner of his desk. He told me he was there for nine months and then I met him in a workshop and then that was it. He said oh, that's it, I have to do something. I can't just keep looking at that document. And of course in the transition it's more than just the operating agreement. But it was so many other things too and he just the accountability was really good for him. He needed that. He really did because he had the intention to do it. It just was, you know, backburner and it was never the thing to do when all these other important things are common. Adam. \n\nDavid: Now that makes sense, and I just want to be clear businesstransitionbookcom or businesstransitionhandbookcom. \n\nLaurie: I just want to make sure I had it. Yeah, that's okay. It's the title of the book. Yeah, oh it's the. \n\nDavid: Okay yeah, I'm looking at the book. Okay, yeah, that is easy note to remember. What do you enjoy the most about your podcast? Trying to switch gears a little bit. \n\nLaurie: I love talking with people on my show about what's worked for them, what they've learned and what they would do differently and if I have an entrepreneur. I have two kinds of entrepreneurs that come on the show. One type is looking in the rearview mirror and that's where they'll get the lessons learned right. We really learn a lot from others where it just didn't quite go the way they would have liked and when they have successes, of course we learn a lot from that too. So that's one type of entrepreneur. The other type of entrepreneur is looking forward and I've started to have more conversations with entrepreneurs and I'm asking them questions about their legacy and how their intentions are for their transition and legacy, if they're open to sharing it. I've had a gentleman came on my show. He's in the HVAC space and he had let his company, his partner, know his intentions to retire in three years and it was almost like this huge weight was lifted off his shoulders and now that it's out there, they can create plans, they can work on things and it's a little bit freeing to do something like that. Other people who aren't quite ready to say what it is they want to do. We talk a little more generally about what's important to them as they think about transition and leaving a meaningful legacy for their stakeholders or family or employees, and I'm really enjoying those conversations. \n\nI also talk with people who are experts in the industry on some particular topic, like tax advisors, financial advisors, legal advisors, and those conversations are wonderful because then, as I build my Rolodex of professionals that are able to be the best fit for my clients, it's a wonderful way to do business development and people who listen to the show have. You know, not every listener becomes a client, but I have had listeners reach out. They've listened to succession stories for a year, two years, whatever it is, and they reach out and they said Lori, a longtime fan would love to talk with you. And the resources that are available from the show are on my website, like business assessments and different articles and knowledge articles give plenty of videos and ask to help people learn about different topics. So I feel like this body of knowledge. \n\nYou know this thought leadership type of approach where if people listen, they learn about me, they learn about what would they do, and then maybe they want to follow up. You know is pretty exciting. So I really like that. I like when I hear from my audience. They tell me what's an interesting topic to them or questions they might have, and I think the learning is really the main thing. I'm a continuous learner I always have been and I find that with every show I'm learning something. You know, I'm learning something every time and I just love that. \n\nDavid: Yeah, and I've probably listened to half of your episodes. I suppose and you know that episode you have with Mike Silverman was really memorable that you know have had to introduce several clients to Mike, and so I think having the advisors on is also a great idea and that's kind of how you fit short of on my show, right? We're not talking about the ICDisc program at all, but you're somebody who my clients outside the ICDisc may find value to this conversation and yeah and I'm like you I love to hear, to hear, people's stories on the Colby. \n\nI'm an 8643, which I don't know. If you know the Colby, I do know the Colby. So I'm. That's what's called high fact finding. Okay, so I lead with the fact finding. So for me, I'm always more comfortable, you know, asking questions than answering them. Maybe that's from childhood trauma, where I was forced to answer too many uncomfortable questions by my parents. I don't know. Well, I can't believe how the time has flown by. By the way, what's your website? \n\nLaurie: My website is thebusinesstransitionsherpacom. \n\nDavid: Oh, okay, I like it. \n\nLaurie: Thank you, you know. I just wanted to mention David, because if your listeners are finding this topic helpful, that's good, you know, and then they probably might be wondering well, what's the next step? Or you know how do I sort of take small nibbles as opposed to biting off a whole arm, and I would recommend that. You know, I don't want people to feel overwhelmed, I want them to feel reassured that we have a process and we'll work with them to meet them where they are and I guess the you know. The next thing would be to reach out and whether they are in a mode of transition and planning, which is what I'll call pre-M&A right, not that they have to sell, but just conceptually. And then, for folks who are anticipating selling to a third party or a family member, you know that transaction somehow some way. So I'm a certified Mergers and Acquisitions Advisor and can help steer them on that path, from the practical side as well as the emotional side, to get a deal done that makes them happy. Okay, I like it. \n\nDavid: If people want to reach out to you, is LinkedIn probably the best way. \n\nLaurie: Yeah, linkedin's a great way. Let me know that you heard me on the show. That would be awesome, and I think, david, you'd probably love to know that too. And they could reach me on my website. As you said, the business transition Sherpa, there's a spot to book directly with me. We can connect via Calendly. \n\nDavid: Okay, and then what's the website for the podcast? \n\nLaurie: Successionstoriescom is the name of the show and again, you can find it directly on my website in the podcast section. All the catalog of the shows are there, but it's in every type of platform, so if you're Apple or Spotify or whatever you like, you'll find it. \n\nDavid: That's great. So here's the surprise question I promised you. \n\nLaurie: So I have two questions left. \n\nDavid: And so here comes the surprise one. So if you could go back in time and give advice to your 25 year old self, what advice might you give? \n\nLaurie: I think I should have bought a business. \n\nDavid: Okay, so you would have encouraged yourself to buy a business. \n\nLaurie: Yes, when I was 25 and I was graduating from my master's program. It was all about the next great tech startup, yeah, and creating that from scratch. And that wasn't me, yeah. But I knew I wanted to be an entrepreneur. I just didn't feel like that was me in that mold. And I think now I'm more attuned to entrepreneurs through acquisition, you know as a category, and I didn't mention them, but they also would fall under the financial buyer category and there are many of them out there, not just in the US but around the world, who are interested in being part of that succession plan for a founder next generation leader. \n\nDavid: If you do you ever listen to the my First Million podcast. \n\nLaurie: I'd spent a while, but I'm familiar with it. You like that. \n\nDavid: They had a guest on recently. That is probably certainly my top five favorite podcast interviews ever and it's about a woman Sarah I forget her last name, but she was getting her MBA and decided she was going to buy a business with and she had zero money. She was going to buy a business you like these real estate advertisements? Buying real estate with no money down. She was going to buy a business with no money down and it's just a fascinating story of the process she went through through in just an astonishingly wonderful interview that I couldn't recommend highly enough. So apparently she was able to somehow go back in time and give her a 25 year old self that advice because she managed to pull that off. That's very cool. Is there anything we didn't cover that you wish we had? \n\nLaurie: Well, I think just to reiterate for people that when time is on your side, you can make an impact on your future and give yourself the space to work on your business and not just in your business. \n\nThat would probably be my main advocacy and surround yourself with people that can help hold you accountable to the process and meet you where you are. So if they are just thinking about it, trying to figure it out, trying to understand what's their business worth today, yeah, that's a great place to start to. You know, try to figure out and model. Where are you now, where do you want to be and what's the gap and how are you going to get there? \n\nDavid: That's awesome, Laurie. I really appreciate your time on the show and I appreciate you taking the time to be on here. \n\nLaurie: Well, David, thank you for having me. I know this is my second time around you and I talked on a different show. We did. \n\nDavid: Yeah, we did. \n\nLaurie: It's lovely to be back with you and reconnect, and I'm just so glad that you are sharing this content with your audience, and I appreciate you, thank you. \n\nDavid: Yeah, it is my pleasure. Well, I hope you have a great day. \n\nLaurie: You too. Special Guest: Laurie Barkman.","content_html":"Today on the IC-DISC show, join us for an insightful discussion with Laurie Barkman, a renowned CEO and author of The Business Transition Handbook. As the acclaimed Business Transition Sherpa, Laurie sheds light on the reality that all business owners will exit someday.
\n\nWe explore the challenges of selling a business, like why most small businesses don't sell successfully and the potential pitfalls of an exit.
\n\nWe also discuss relying on experienced advisors and how understanding taxes and markets can aid planning. Laurie shares invaluable advice on navigating this critical phase successfully.
\n\nThis episode is a must-listen for any business owner planning to navigate their business transition.
\n
\n\n
SHOW HIGHLIGHTS
\n\nAbout The Business Transition Sherpa
\nAbout The Endgame Entrepreneurship Course
\n![](\"https://assets.fireside.fm/file/fireside-images/podcasts/images/d/d61cedee-227d-47c8-8d74-3407972d4afc/guests/e/ee2bc5bd-92f6-4dc9-9a23-570146913209/avatar_small.jpg?v=0\"){kind=avatar} | \nLaurie Barkman | \n
(AI transcript provided as supporting material and may contain errors)
\n\nLaurie: David, hey, great to see you, I'm awesome.
\n\nDavid: That is great. Now, where are you located today?
\n\nLaurie: I'm in the great city of Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania.
\n\nDavid: Yes, now are you a native of Pittsburgh.
\n\nLaurie: I am not. I am not. I'm an adopted daughter of the city. I'm originally from Albany, New York.
\n\nDavid: Okay, so Ithaca wasn't too far to go for you.
\n\nLaurie: That's right, it was not. It was only about three hours away.
\n\nDavid: Okay, and then what brought you to Pittsburgh?
\n\nLaurie: After graduating from college, my husband and I moved around Pennsylvania with different corporations. I was with Aigner Sol Rand Company and I was with a division in Shippensburg and after four years decided to get my masters, get my MBA, and decided to move to Pittsburgh. My husband had gotten a nice job with McKinsey and company and here we are. Okay 25 years later.
\n\nDavid: You got your MBA in Pittsburgh, right at Carnegie.
\n\nLaurie: Mellon. I did at Carnegie Mellon okay.
\n\nDavid: Well, let's dig into this. So the business transition Sherpa. Where did this nickname come from? Did you come up with this yourself, or did somebody else give you that title?
\n\nLaurie: You know, it's kind of an amalgamation of things. I remember talking to my husband about a trip that he and I had taken in 1997. We did a trek, we did a hike, and this idea of somebody guiding you and stuck with me. And as I was thinking about what I'm doing, working with business owners, it's not just one moment in time, it's over a period of time, and I really feel like my role is to be a guide. I don't have all the answers. I have a path, I have tools and, just like a Sherpa and the great work that they do, it's that same idea is we're on a journey together. Entrepreneurs build their business, sometimes on their own, but most likely not. Entrepreneurs are building their companies with other people, and so when they get to this other side of the mountain, so to speak, and thinking about their next chapter, why would they go about that by themselves? And I want to be the person that helps guide them.
\n\nDavid: Yeah, I love the description of what you do because it picks up the fact that it's a journey, it's not a point in time and it's tough to do by yourself. In my experience I've just closely held small to medium sized business owners. Only sell a business once right, that's right.
\n\nLaurie: We can regret things in our experience. We can regret what we do and wish we did something differently, or we do not take an action and we regret not taking that action. And my book the whole reason I wrote the book the business transition handbook was to help people proactively so that they don't have regrets.
\n\nIt's a very big, lofty goal to not have regrets in life, but if we can be proactive and we can understand what it takes to build a more valuable, transferable business and then understand what resources we might want to have on our side. I like to say, David, you can't do exit planning when you're exiting. It's just too late. So if you give yourself a time and space to work on having a more valuable, transferable business, the good news is that it's going to be a lot more fun to run your company. It's going to have an economic benefit to you and then in the future you'll have more options. You'll have more valuable options too.
\n\nDavid: Yeah, I really enjoyed reading your book. In fact, behind you there, I believe, there's a blown up cover. Yes, it is.
\n\nLaurie: That's right. Yeah, it was really interesting to write the book. I guess I could say it's my first book. I don't know that I'll have a second, but this, no matter what, is my first book and it was challenging, but at the same time, it was fun. It was like a giant puzzle.
\n\nOnce I mapped out what I believe the big pitfalls are right. So the subtitle of the book is how to avoid succession pitfalls. Each chapter in the book and I don't know if you picked up on this as you were reading it but each chapter is a pitfall. What do you want to avoid? And so what I tried to do was put myself in the reader's seat, the entrepreneur's seat, and how I developed that perspective was from my own experiences, client experiences and then integrating case studies and other learnings from my podcast.
\n\nI have a show called Succession Stories that you will be a part of soon, and there are so many valuable things to learn from other people's wins and losses and challenges, and that's what I have always sought out to do with my show.
\n\nThe show is about three years old at this point and when I was writing the book, I had, I think, about 120 recordings, so that's a lot of knowledge and content.
\n\nAnd what was so fun for me, david, was I was going back into the archives of a discussion.
\n\nEvery show I have has a transcript and of course I don't remember everything.
\n\nBut when I would write a chapter and I would need a case study, I had space for a case study in that particular spot, for a particular topic I would think, okay, which shows, should I go back to dive into those transcripts and then find these golden nuggets and I it was just so interesting to have the recall in writing of oh yeah, you know, she said that was an amazing conversation, and you, my memories are not long, right, we have so many, only so much storage in our brains, exactly. So it was really cool to go back to that body of knowledge that I had created, and I began to appreciate that body of knowledge even more. I think this case studies bring the book to life. I'd like to hear what you think about that, but that's that's what I hear from my readers is they love the, the learning and the concepts, the business concepts in the book, and they think that it's like me having a conversation with them by sharing these case studies and stories along the way.
\n\nDavid: Yeah, I agree there were a number of. I mean, there was a lot of great stuff in there, but some of the particular ones I kind of wanted to dive in with you on is so this is a little bit of a quiz to see how much of your book you remember Do. When somebody, when people, decide to sell their business, do they just automatically sell it or do some portion of them? Are they unable to sell the business?
\n\nLaurie: There's a mix, as you can imagine. Yeah, what percentage are you?
\n\nDavid: able to actually sell it in the small business space.
\n\nLaurie: It's a surprisingly low number. You know the statistics out. There is that every two out of 10 companies in the lower middle market actually sell. So that leaves eight out of 10 not selling. And you could ask, well, why is that? And there's a lot of reasons why. Sometimes along the way we have the five D's kind of pop up, or always also known as the 60s. These D's are taboo things, sometimes we don't want to talk about them, but they're real and we do need to talk about them. It could be the debt of an owner.
\n\nIt could be divorce disaster like COVID you know we put it in that category or disaster like fires and the business or the market has experienced is something traumatic it could be. Did I say divorce already? Divorce is another D. So these D's are something we can plan for. We don't want them to happen but we do need to be prepared. So if we're not prepared for the 60s, they can really wreak havoc on a business. Particularly death. The death of an owner can throw a business into a tailspin and I did cover that at some you know level in the book with a couple of episodes, snippets of people who had experienced that.
\n\nThe other reason why businesses don't sell, david, is because they're just not transferable. If they are so owner dependent and owner centric, that can be a really big reason why it won't sell and it's hard for owners to see that. You know, sometimes owners think that they are the secret sauce. I have a business assessment that one time I'm marketing. The owner of a marketing firm took this assessment and she said oh my God, she goes. I didn't realize I was standing in the way. She thought she, you know, she's a photographer, she's the creative, she's got the client relationships and she realized at that moment oh my goodness, I am making my company less valuable.
\n\nSo there's a pivot in our brains when we recognize some of the elements that help create a more transferable business and companies that have an owner who don't necessarily see the business as an asset, they see it as a job or they see it as a piggy bank. Those are different things, because if you see your business as an asset, you're going to want to create value in that asset over time. You're also going to want to protect that asset. If it's a job, right, I just accepted what is. And it's not growing, it's staying the same. Maybe you're not reinvesting in the business. You're not reinvesting in yourself or your people.
\n\nAnd let's just jump to an example. I have a client who, in his favor, had very loyal people Once he got to his sixties, as did his key employees, and everybody's looking to retire. Buyers looking at that business said oh my goodness, how transferable is this business when all the key people are going to retire at the same time? So he had saved money, so to speak, by not bringing in new people, kind of underneath and over a period of training. So he recognizes that now, but it's too late.
\n\nDavid: Sure, yeah, I was having this conversation yesterday with a group of CEOs and we were talking about enterprise value, increasing it, owner dependency, and there's a guy that owns a small boutique intellectual property law firm and they were asking him how sellable law firms are in general and he said not very and from his perspective that he said there's things he could do to make the business run without him better.
\n\nBut his model that he really likes to work with his clients directly, he doesn't like an associate between them and so that in his and a couple of his clients are actually in the room and they're like, and he's like, yeah, if I had like some associates that could potentially lower the fees to a client, you know, because there's more leverage in the client. So like no, we'd rather pay more and have you. So I've noticed in professional services there's this tradeoff between what. If you really want to have delighted clients, sometimes that's at odds with making your business the most valuable. And I know my business is like that. I mean I've got huge owner dependency issues because I am the key relationship, but I've gotten peace with the fact that it's just not very sellable and I like being a craftsman and just like it hit.
\n\nLaurie: Yeah, and that isn't that the important thing. If you recognize it and are accepting of it, hey, you know what? That's okay. Not every business is going to be an asset to sell to another buyer and that's totally okay with the law firm. Just to circle back, because I do have some professional experience with law firms, one of the catch 22 things about law in particular is the code of ethics that they have to abide by.
\n\nDavid: The non-competence, the non-compete.
\n\nLaurie: Yeah. So if a lawyer leaves a law firm, they you know there's certain restrictions on when they can inform their clients and taking their clients with them, and I know there's lots of gray areas. I'm not going to talk about all of the nuances there. My point is that with law firms also there could be other types of professional services that run into this, but in law in particular what clients will say is that they hire lawyers, not law firms. Yeah, and so when you're tied let's just like you're talking about with that particular partner that the clients are willing to pay more because they want to work with that particular partner it could be highly likely that client would jump and go with them, no matter where they are. That can be particularly concerning for an acquiring firm, knowing that they may have some stickiness to certain clients and then they may not have other stickiness. So it really is dependent If there's a firm that's acquisitive and looking at buying other professional services, whether it's law or any other profession.
\n\nI work with engineering firms quite a bit and in engineering firms there might be contracts but those contracts are not assignable and it might influence not only the type of transaction that we would do, whether an asset sale or entity sale, but it also would influence potentially on the transition for the sellers and how long they might want to stay, or the buyers might want them to stay under either an employment agreement or consulting agreement. It could also influence whether or not there's an earn out. You could structure an earn out, for example, if the buyer wants to structure an earn out to ensure a certain percent of those contracts are assigned over whatever time period or year and a half. So it could influence it in a big way.
\n\nDavid: Talk to me about, and thank you for that. Talk to me about what you enjoy most, about being a business transition or not. I shouldn't say A, but the business transition, Sure. What are some of the aspects of that in working with those companies that you just find particularly satisfying or rewarding?
\n\nLaurie: One of the things that I experienced as a CEO of a privately held company was the loneliness and being in my own head and having big questions and not really knowing where to go. I find that I bring kind of this EQ, if you will, of smarts and know-how and experiences and questions, and then I bring excuse me, the IQ around that, then the EQ, which is more of the emotional side. I've always been a kind of person that people confide in. Obviously, this is a highly confidential type of scenario but, I talk with my clients about the business.
\n\nfor sure, that's the practical side of everything, but we also talk about the personal side. We have to talk about them because remember earlier in our conversation I talked about regrets and there's some alarming statistics out there about experiencing regrets at least one year after the sale. I'm kind of on this mission to help business owners find clarity, and find clarity in a way that makes sense for them, for their family, for their stakeholders, which includes employees and other shareholders and their communities that they serve. A lot of people feel after a transaction that they let so-and-so down. Maybe they let their employees down, maybe they let their communities down.
\n\nI had a guy in my show whose family business fourth generation chlorine cleaning product was sold in grocery stores and he could not walk down the aisle anymore. He couldn't bear to see that product under another name or by another. He said, yeah, there was a pride. We used to the small town and we had our name on the baseball team and people knew who I was. The identity that this particular person had his family name was on the company. Identity is a really big part of it, david.
\n\nPeople go through almost like a withdrawal If they're not excited about what's next, this pull factor, what's pulling you forward to your next thing? If we're not excited about it, it can be really. You can imagine worst case scenarios. Those things do happen. But the in-between space is not that great either, for what makes me feel that I'm helping entrepreneurs?
\n\nI've always orbited entrepreneurs with a great respect for the risk that they take. I've come to know family businesses as a category. Also. There's the founder-led, family-led, privately held company. I've worked in venture backed, so no offense to venture backed folks, but they're not really a focus for me. I'm really focused on call it the bootstrapped or family-led companies where they're the everyday entrepreneur making it happen.
\n\nThe sense of clarity clarity on three core types of goals is where we focus business, personal and financial. There's a lot of work to be done there. I think that's what makes me motivated, makes me feel appreciated by my clients. They are awesome people. I work with some amazing people that are doing really wonderful things for their community, for their family. They have excellent intentions. They just don't know how to put it all together. I don't either. I don't have all the answers, as I said earlier, but what I do have is I have an awesome Rolodex and I have an awesome way to bring professionals together and collaborate and help my client assemble a business owner transition team advisory team to help them make big decisions along the way. Again, this clarity is the number one thing that I think my clients benefit from.
\n\nDavid: Yeah, no, that's really important because, as you talk about in the book, unfortunately 100% of the business owners are going to exit the business, just like 100% of us are going to exit this earth. I was thinking when you were talking about that fourth generation gentleman who couldn't walk down the grocery aisle, but it's one of those things, but it wasn't like he really had. He must not have had a great way to avoid that, because he wasn't going to run the business forever. So you come into what are the options? Basically, if somebody's not immortal, what are the options to exit a business? Because there's several paths, right?
\n\nLaurie: Yeah, absolutely. Just to finish the statement with 100% of business owners are going to leave one day, there's a big however, you know. However, very few are planning for that day To leave on their terms, and when we have a plan, we're more likely to achieve it. That's just how it works, right. That's why we do strategic planning for businesses. So why don't we do strategic planning for our exit or our transition? And that's really the main advocacy I have in the book is let's have a process, let's have an understanding of what it takes. So to your question I think I address it quite a bit in one of my favorite chapters, which I think is chapter six, which is who should own your business after you, and it shines a spotlight on the different kinds of buyers.
\n\nWhen I do workshops, david, I do webinars and I do in-person workshops, and I put up this slide and I have essentially three columns and I go through some examples of each bucket three buckets and people's eyes light up, they take out their camera, they start taking photos of this one particular slide and it is enlightening because we hear about certain kinds of buyers and we don't know that there might be other options out there and maybe not every option is a fit. So what I advocate for is let's understand what are some exit options for your company and which ones might be a better fit than others, and why let's prioritize those and let's come up with option A, b, c and if option A doesn't work out, then we know we've got an option B. It's just like in any negotiation If you have the power to walk away, then you know you're going to get the right deal for you. It's when you don't feel that you have any other options that you feel pinched. So that's why back to the conversation about the five or sixties if an owner passes away and the company is going in a tailspin, with employees leaving and the spouse doesn't know what to do, and they've inherited this company. They've never worked in it, it's a mess and the buyers come out like sharks and there's chum in the water.
\n\nWe want to avoid that. We want to avoid that. So, yeah, I mean we could talk about what. Who are the different kinds of buyers, if you want.
\n\nDavid: Sure, yeah, because I mean, I, just off the top of my head, we've got passing it on to the next generation selling it to the employees. A third party buyer? What are some of the other options?
\n\nLaurie: Yeah, let me just frame it out and that way, visually, I'm kind of working left to right as I talked about these three columns and I put it in that order for a reason. So the first column is strategic buyers, the middle is financial buyers and the one on the right is related buyers.
\n\nSo the examples you mentioned, family and managers would be in the related buyers category. Typically speaking, that is going to be more of a fair market value type of approach to valuing the business, of what price you might expect for your business, and if you kind of go left on that chart then the price expectation should go up right.
\n\nDavid: Strategic generally not always generally speaking, will pay the most.
\n\nLaurie: And why is that? Well, and also, what's a strategic? So a strategic is an entity, it's a company, it could be a competitor, it could be a marketplace vendor, it could be a customer, it could be an adjacent industry to yours where they want to make moves, either geography wise, or into your industry, if they're not part of it yet. So those are strategic and, typically speaking and this was my experience going through a pretty big M&A transaction with a third generation company that we were acquired by a Fortune 50. And, believe me, they had an M&A playbook and when they're that big and they've done that many transactions, so for us it was understanding what's the fit, what will this look like? And for them, I'm sure, in their financial models, it was about leverage what assets do they keep, what employee teams might they cut and how do they gain some cost leverage? And so that's typical where these pieces of the business might be kind of bolted into something else. Maybe it's standalone, maybe it's bolted in, but that's typically why strategic can pay more, because on the back end, as they're modeling out their financials, they know what costs they're going to take out. We don't necessarily know that, but that's what they're looking at.
\n\nFinancial buyer most often we think of private equity firms, and private equity groups will invest on a time horizon roughly five to seven years could be longer and they'll want to buy low, sell high, and so in between, they're investing in that business to improve it, they're putting in management teams and they will take a larger entity, maybe keep it as a standalone and that would be a platform deal. And a platform deal may eventually have other firms acquired to tuck underneath it. Those acquisitions we call tuck ins or add ons. And because they are taking assets and putting them into something larger, you could say, oh well, that kind of sounds like the strategic. And the answer is, yeah, kind of does. So that's why, in a private equity deal, the hybrid, as we might also call it, could, from a multiple standpoint, look more like a strategic offer. So that's just a little financial nuance there. But typically speaking, private equity groups are going to be the biggest, you know, the biggest buyers out there. There's still a lot of dry powder and another big category that I like to spotlight.
\n\nWell, there's two others I would put under this financial bucket. One is family offices might be investing in privately held companies in different asset classes. So, for example, I had a family office. Second generation was on my show and he talked about what he and his father's investment thesis is. And they're focused on warehousing, like storage, you know, storage unit for consumer storage so you can rent one for a year or whatever and put your stuff in it. So he liked they like that asset class because it has a recurring revenue model to it. And that's just one example.
\n\nAnd what's really interesting, if you compare the time horizons for these investments, well, a family office is looking for a buy and hold, more likely than buying, selling a short period of time. So, as I said earlier about fit, this is where it's really important. If the seller doesn't want to be in a situation where it could be sold to the one fish and gobbled up by another. They want to be held for like a longer period of time and perpetuity. Then maybe they should look to you know, talking with family offices who are doing acquisitions in their space. So that's a category that is kind of under the radar and I just put a spotlight on in the book.
\n\nAnd then the third one are ESOPs, which is a you know, think of it like an almost like a 401k program for your people. When they retire from your company, they're incentivized to stay, and when they retire they will get a distribution check, and so an ESOP is an interesting option for some other companies Again, not a fit for everyone, but it might be a fit for companies of a larger size with enough employee base, where, again, you're going to have a liability at some point to pay these people, so you have to be able to fund that. But what happens in that transaction is that the company becomes a tax-free entity, and so that's a real incentive, you know for companies to reinvest and acquire others, and it can be very positive for the culture too, yeah.
\n\nDavid: I know quite a bit about ESOPs because you were kind enough to introduce me to Mike Silverman and in fact he and his partner, Matt were, I guess, in my podcast a few episodes ago and it's really interesting on some of the ESOP opportunities. And I'm glad you brought up the family office because, right, people don't think of that.
\n\nLaurie: But when?
\n\nDavid: I think about the. What I think of philosophically is the super family office. I think about Berkshire Hathaway's acquisition targets. But the problem is I think now they're up to where. When I started reading Warren's annual letters, they were looking for businesses with enterprise value, I think of like 25 million and up, and I think the last I checked it's half a billion or a billion and up. Just because $25 million companies don't move the needle for them.
\n\nBut yeah and it's kind of like their sales pitch is similar to the family office sales pitch. So I guess one way to think of it is, if you like being an aquire of Berkshire Hathaway but you're smaller than a half a billion dollars, then maybe a family office might make sense. But even then when you think about Berk acquisition requirements. They want a business that runs independently of them. They do not want to manage the business. So you're right back to. A business that can run without the owner is more valuable for everybody.
\n\nLaurie: Yeah, they have the portfolio largely independent of each other. They've kept the brands, I think, pretty separate because they appreciate the brand and the competitive moat, as they like to call it, around that business. I think they look for companies that have a competitive market differentiation, so it makes sense that they don't muddle the water.
\n\nDavid: Yeah.
\n\nLaurie: Yeah.
\n\nDavid: Have there been any positive surprises from writing the book that you didn't anticipate when you wrote?
\n\nLaurie: it Surprises. Let me think about that.
\n\nI think just the reviews have been so delightful and meaningful to me and I guess I just didn't think about it. I don't know that it's a surprise, it was just. Maybe I could say a surprise and delight just to see how this book is helping people or how they've shared told me that it's helping people. I think that has been a really lovely outcome. As an author, you put good in the world and you hope goodness comes back, or you hope that it's helping, but you don't really know unless people tell you, and so that's been really great, I would say. The other is with my clients. I have my clients and meet with them on a regular basis and I have clients that are reading the book and then when I meet with them they're like, yeah, I just read chapter five, let's talk about it. So this combination of I'm not going to quite do this myself, I'm going to read the book, I'm going to get knowledge, but I still want to work with someone to help me along the way, was really reinforcing that what I expected. I expected that, frankly, and I think it's important.
\n\nI do think people can go through this book on their own and at some point in this call give, I'll give the listeners an option to how to make the most of it, but you can do it on your own. You can. What I think is human nature is we want someone to hold us accountable, and that's, I think, not again not necessarily a surprise, but very reinforcing. That is true and that's why just a kind of a pre announcement here I'm going to be creating an online course from the book so that it can help more people in a different way, and hopefully they'll watch the videos and they'll read the book, and I, what I'm aiming to do is reach a wider audience of entrepreneurs, not just the people who are, you know, three to five years out. This is really a book, I think. If you are beyond startup phase but you're growing your business, why not read this book and understand what it's going to take to create a more valuable exit when you're ready? So it's exciting. I'm planning to launch it in the first quarter of 2024.
\n\nDavid: Oh, that is exciting. If somebody is interested in learning more about that is do you have any place for them to go yet, or are we too soon?
\n\nLaurie: We are too soon, but that's a great idea. I should put up like a waiting list or something on my website, but the businesstransitionhandbookcom is the website page for the blog BusinessTransitionHandbookcom.
\n\nYeah, the businesstransitionhandbookcom is a page on my site, so they'll see all other pages too, but this is the landing page for the book, so what I might do is put up I'll put up a blurb at some point about awaiting this for the class. And yeah, no, I'm excited about it. Like I said, I aim to reach more people and help more people with it.
\n\nDavid: Yeah, and you know that accountability is interesting, because one of the things I see with our clients is that one of the things that's interesting about our clients is that 90% of them have revenues between 10 and 100 million probably somewhere in the light of your clients and the vast majority of them do not borrow money. They've been financially successful enough. They've been able to, you know, internally find growth and because of in that, in addition to other reasons, and most of these also, it's a single shareholder, they don't have a board, and so these clients have zero accountability, like their only accountability is like to their family, to make sure that you know the monthly income is what they're hoping it would be.
\n\nBut you know, they don't have a bank to be accountable to, they don't have a board, they don't have other shareholders, so I can see where that accountability is something that they could be really helpful for them, that they don't really have anywhere else. Now, of course, they may have done that on purpose. Maybe they didn't really like being accountable. You know they were an accountable employee and then they borrowed money from the bank to start a business, so maybe they don't really like me. What do you think?
\n\nLaurie: I have a client that's about 120 million revenue business in the call it food production space and he's very purposeful, has very good intentions for transition with his daughter over time and really wants to see her be successful in the company and grow with the company. And his partner, to his credit, said hey, not real name. You know, joe, you're going to want we should do a new operating agreement. You know your daughter's in the business now. She's doing a great job. We need a new operating agreement.
\n\nAnd this operating agreement was sitting on my client's desk coffee stains. You know he literally had it in the corner of his desk. He told me he was there for nine months and then I met him in a workshop and then that was it. He said oh, that's it, I have to do something. I can't just keep looking at that document. And of course in the transition it's more than just the operating agreement. But it was so many other things too and he just the accountability was really good for him. He needed that. He really did because he had the intention to do it. It just was, you know, backburner and it was never the thing to do when all these other important things are common. Adam.
\n\nDavid: Now that makes sense, and I just want to be clear businesstransitionbookcom or businesstransitionhandbookcom.
\n\nLaurie: I just want to make sure I had it. Yeah, that's okay. It's the title of the book. Yeah, oh it's the.
\n\nDavid: Okay yeah, I'm looking at the book. Okay, yeah, that is easy note to remember. What do you enjoy the most about your podcast? Trying to switch gears a little bit.
\n\nLaurie: I love talking with people on my show about what's worked for them, what they've learned and what they would do differently and if I have an entrepreneur. I have two kinds of entrepreneurs that come on the show. One type is looking in the rearview mirror and that's where they'll get the lessons learned right. We really learn a lot from others where it just didn't quite go the way they would have liked and when they have successes, of course we learn a lot from that too. So that's one type of entrepreneur. The other type of entrepreneur is looking forward and I've started to have more conversations with entrepreneurs and I'm asking them questions about their legacy and how their intentions are for their transition and legacy, if they're open to sharing it. I've had a gentleman came on my show. He's in the HVAC space and he had let his company, his partner, know his intentions to retire in three years and it was almost like this huge weight was lifted off his shoulders and now that it's out there, they can create plans, they can work on things and it's a little bit freeing to do something like that. Other people who aren't quite ready to say what it is they want to do. We talk a little more generally about what's important to them as they think about transition and leaving a meaningful legacy for their stakeholders or family or employees, and I'm really enjoying those conversations.
\n\nI also talk with people who are experts in the industry on some particular topic, like tax advisors, financial advisors, legal advisors, and those conversations are wonderful because then, as I build my Rolodex of professionals that are able to be the best fit for my clients, it's a wonderful way to do business development and people who listen to the show have. You know, not every listener becomes a client, but I have had listeners reach out. They've listened to succession stories for a year, two years, whatever it is, and they reach out and they said Lori, a longtime fan would love to talk with you. And the resources that are available from the show are on my website, like business assessments and different articles and knowledge articles give plenty of videos and ask to help people learn about different topics. So I feel like this body of knowledge.
\n\nYou know this thought leadership type of approach where if people listen, they learn about me, they learn about what would they do, and then maybe they want to follow up. You know is pretty exciting. So I really like that. I like when I hear from my audience. They tell me what's an interesting topic to them or questions they might have, and I think the learning is really the main thing. I'm a continuous learner I always have been and I find that with every show I'm learning something. You know, I'm learning something every time and I just love that.
\n\nDavid: Yeah, and I've probably listened to half of your episodes. I suppose and you know that episode you have with Mike Silverman was really memorable that you know have had to introduce several clients to Mike, and so I think having the advisors on is also a great idea and that's kind of how you fit short of on my show, right? We're not talking about the ICDisc program at all, but you're somebody who my clients outside the ICDisc may find value to this conversation and yeah and I'm like you I love to hear, to hear, people's stories on the Colby.
\n\nI'm an 8643, which I don't know. If you know the Colby, I do know the Colby. So I'm. That's what's called high fact finding. Okay, so I lead with the fact finding. So for me, I'm always more comfortable, you know, asking questions than answering them. Maybe that's from childhood trauma, where I was forced to answer too many uncomfortable questions by my parents. I don't know. Well, I can't believe how the time has flown by. By the way, what's your website?
\n\nLaurie: My website is thebusinesstransitionsherpacom.
\n\nDavid: Oh, okay, I like it.
\n\nLaurie: Thank you, you know. I just wanted to mention David, because if your listeners are finding this topic helpful, that's good, you know, and then they probably might be wondering well, what's the next step? Or you know how do I sort of take small nibbles as opposed to biting off a whole arm, and I would recommend that. You know, I don't want people to feel overwhelmed, I want them to feel reassured that we have a process and we'll work with them to meet them where they are and I guess the you know. The next thing would be to reach out and whether they are in a mode of transition and planning, which is what I'll call pre-M&A right, not that they have to sell, but just conceptually. And then, for folks who are anticipating selling to a third party or a family member, you know that transaction somehow some way. So I'm a certified Mergers and Acquisitions Advisor and can help steer them on that path, from the practical side as well as the emotional side, to get a deal done that makes them happy. Okay, I like it.
\n\nDavid: If people want to reach out to you, is LinkedIn probably the best way.
\n\nLaurie: Yeah, linkedin's a great way. Let me know that you heard me on the show. That would be awesome, and I think, david, you'd probably love to know that too. And they could reach me on my website. As you said, the business transition Sherpa, there's a spot to book directly with me. We can connect via Calendly.
\n\nDavid: Okay, and then what's the website for the podcast?
\n\nLaurie: Successionstoriescom is the name of the show and again, you can find it directly on my website in the podcast section. All the catalog of the shows are there, but it's in every type of platform, so if you're Apple or Spotify or whatever you like, you'll find it.
\n\nDavid: That's great. So here's the surprise question I promised you.
\n\nLaurie: So I have two questions left.
\n\nDavid: And so here comes the surprise one. So if you could go back in time and give advice to your 25 year old self, what advice might you give?
\n\nLaurie: I think I should have bought a business.
\n\nDavid: Okay, so you would have encouraged yourself to buy a business.
\n\nLaurie: Yes, when I was 25 and I was graduating from my master's program. It was all about the next great tech startup, yeah, and creating that from scratch. And that wasn't me, yeah. But I knew I wanted to be an entrepreneur. I just didn't feel like that was me in that mold. And I think now I'm more attuned to entrepreneurs through acquisition, you know as a category, and I didn't mention them, but they also would fall under the financial buyer category and there are many of them out there, not just in the US but around the world, who are interested in being part of that succession plan for a founder next generation leader.
\n\nDavid: If you do you ever listen to the my First Million podcast.
\n\nLaurie: I'd spent a while, but I'm familiar with it. You like that.
\n\nDavid: They had a guest on recently. That is probably certainly my top five favorite podcast interviews ever and it's about a woman Sarah I forget her last name, but she was getting her MBA and decided she was going to buy a business with and she had zero money. She was going to buy a business you like these real estate advertisements? Buying real estate with no money down. She was going to buy a business with no money down and it's just a fascinating story of the process she went through through in just an astonishingly wonderful interview that I couldn't recommend highly enough. So apparently she was able to somehow go back in time and give her a 25 year old self that advice because she managed to pull that off. That's very cool. Is there anything we didn't cover that you wish we had?
\n\nLaurie: Well, I think just to reiterate for people that when time is on your side, you can make an impact on your future and give yourself the space to work on your business and not just in your business.
\n\nThat would probably be my main advocacy and surround yourself with people that can help hold you accountable to the process and meet you where you are. So if they are just thinking about it, trying to figure it out, trying to understand what's their business worth today, yeah, that's a great place to start to. You know, try to figure out and model. Where are you now, where do you want to be and what's the gap and how are you going to get there?
\n\nDavid: That's awesome, Laurie. I really appreciate your time on the show and I appreciate you taking the time to be on here.
\n\nLaurie: Well, David, thank you for having me. I know this is my second time around you and I talked on a different show. We did.
\n\nDavid: Yeah, we did.
\n\nLaurie: It's lovely to be back with you and reconnect, and I'm just so glad that you are sharing this content with your audience, and I appreciate you, thank you.
\n\nDavid: Yeah, it is my pleasure. Well, I hope you have a great day.
\n\nLaurie: You too.
Special Guest: Laurie Barkman.
","summary":"Today on the IC-DISC show, join us for an insightful discussion with Laurie Barkman, a renowned CEO and author of The Business Transition Handbook. As the acclaimed Business Transition Sherpa, Laurie sheds light on the reality that all business owners will exit someday.\r\n\r\nWe explore the challenges of selling a business, like why most small businesses don't sell successfully and the potential pitfalls of an exit.\r\n\r\nWe also discuss relying on experienced advisors and how understanding taxes and markets can aid planning. Laurie shares invaluable advice on navigating this critical phase successfully.\r\n\r\nThis episode is a must-listen for any business owner planning to navigate their business transition.","date_published":"2024-01-10T10:00:00.000-06:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/d61cedee-227d-47c8-8d74-3407972d4afc/2a5cf04e-3cf4-4ed4-bc3c-769f3d374d7d.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":32194256,"duration_in_seconds":2674}]},{"id":"26754cb3-fa69-4699-a106-eb0c4e2fae56","title":"Ep050: Exploring Alabama's Booming Industries with Carolyn Turner","url":"https://www.ic-discshow.com/050","content_text":"\n\n\n\n\n\nIn today's episode of the IC-DISC show, I have a captivating discussion with Carolyn Turner from the Alabama International Trade Center. We uncover fascinating details about Alabama's economic progress and the pivotal role of the Small Business Development Center (SBDC) in boosting job growth and new businesses. \n\nCarolyn shares inspiring success stories of SBDC clients who utilized free services to export goods successfully. I also learned more about the SBDC's impactful support for small businesses through cost-free assistance. \n\nWe wrap it up by exploring how SBDC teams in Texas and Colorado foster business growth.\n\n \n\nSHOW HIGHLIGHTS\n\n\nCarolyn Turner, the Assistant Director of Research and Training at the Alabama International Trade Center for Imports and Exports, joins us to discuss Alabama's economic progress and the impact of the Small Business Development Center (SBDC).\nWe discuss the remarkable growth in job creation, economic investment, and new business formations in Alabama, which can be directly linked to the efforts of the SBDC.\nCarolyn shares inspiring success stories of businesses that have used the SBDC's free services to successfully export goods.\nWe delve into the valuable, cost-free services provided by the SBDC and its transformative role in Alabama's business landscape.\nWe explore the flourishing industries in Huntsville, Alabama, including aerospace, aviation, missile defense, and genomics.\nCarolyn and I have a lively discussion about the economic influence of Bucky's in Alabama and the importance of taking breaks.\nWe touch on the peculiarities of international business, such as the unnecessary pursuit of perfection, and engage in a playful debate about whether to use hot or cold water when scooping ice cream.\nWe highlight the work being done by the SBDC teams in Texas and Colorado to support small businesses and entrepreneurs.\nCarolyn emphasizes the importance of making use of SBDC resources, particularly for those in Texas, and encourages checking out the San Antonio SBDC.\nWe end on a note of importance, discussing the significance of finding joy in what you do and taking breaks to maintain passion and enthusiasm.\n\n\n\n\nLINKSShow Notes\nBe a Guest\nAbout IC-DISC Alliance\nAbout Alabama International Trade Center\n\n\nGUEST\n\n\n\nCarolyn TurnerAbout Carolyn\n\n\n\n\n\nTRANSCRIPT\n\n(AI transcript provided as supporting material and may contain errors)\n\n\nDave: Hi, my name is David Spray and this is the IC disc show. My guest today is Carolyn Turner from Alabama. Carolyn is the Assistant Director of Research and Training at the Alabama International Trade Center for Imports and Export. I think this might be the longest title of any guest I've ever had. So the Alabama International Trade Center for Importing and Exporting is a division of the Alabama Small Business Development Center, which in turn is funded by the Small Business Administration. \n\nI learned that every state has its own Small Business Development Center focused on increasing the economic impact of small businesses. So we talked about the different ways that the Small Business Development Center in Alabama has had an impact. Carolyn shares some amazing stats as far as job growth, economic investment, new business formations in Alabama that are directly tied to the Small Business Development Center. We also discussed some specific stories of clients of her organization who export and successful export stories and success stories that developed. And then, on a more fun note, we also talked about which Texas retail behemoth has had a bigger impact on her life in Alabama the famous Whataburger or the famous Buckeys and her answer there was pretty interesting. So even if you're not in Alabama, I would recommend that you investigate the Small Business Development Center in your state as well as the exporting arm to take advantage of their free services. This was a great episode and Carolyn has a real passion for helping small businesses and it comes through in the entire conversation. \n\nCarolyn: I hope you enjoy it as much as I did. \n\nDave: Good morning, Carolyn. Welcome to the podcast. \n\nCarolyn: Good morning. Thanks for having me. \n\nDave: Sure. Now. Where are you? Where are you located today? I'm in Birmingham, Alabama, In Birmingham okay, and so are you a native Alabama. Is that the correct term? \n\nCarolyn: I've spent most of my life here. Technically, I was born in California, but I grew up in Alabama. \n\nDave: Got there as quick as you could. That's what we say in Texas. \n\nCarolyn: I know it gets a bad rep, but it's a pretty good state to live in. \n\nDave: I know I've been to Alabama several times. We have a client there and always wonderful experiences there. So let's talk about the organization, and I'm really intrigued by this whole structure and I've learned a lot about this from you. So you're technically an employee of the University of Alabama, right? \n\nCarolyn: Yes. \n\nDave: But this is part of a bigger structure, so could you maybe give the audience a sense of how everything fits together? So let's maybe start at the top. What's the umbrella organization for everything? \n\nCarolyn: Sure, so I'm part of America's SBDC that stands for the Small Business Development Center. We are a national organization that's funded mostly through Congress, through the Small Business Administration, and there are these in every state. So Alabama SBDC is part of that organization and in the state of Alabama it's a partnership with the University of Alabama, so this is really considered a federal state partnership. Funding comes through Congress, through the SBA. We get some matching funds through the University of Alabama and the University of Alabama manages our grant. \n\nDave: Okay. \n\nCarolyn: Slightly differently in other states. Every state can kind of handle it differently, but in Alabama that's how it's worked for the last 40 plus years. \n\nDave: Okay, and then within the Alabama SBDC, I guess there's kind of sub organizations, of which the Research and Economic Development Center is one of those kind of subsidiary arms, is that right? \n\nCarolyn: So the University Office of Research and Economic Development is a UA department. Within the SBDC we have four kind of divisions. We have our domestic business advisors that are just called the SBDC Small Business Development Center. We have our government contracting branch, which recently changed names to APEX. We have the Alabama International Trade Center, which I'm a part of, and then we also have a separate capital access team that is part of the SBDC. \n\nDave: Okay. \n\nCarolyn: And within UA, we are housed within the Office of Research and Economic Development. Okay, and that's the dean that we report to. \n\nDave: Okay, well, that's, and I believe that you're a proud graduate of the University of Alabama. \n\nCarolyn: Right Double degree graduate yes, I got my undergrad in international marketing in Spanish, with some extra studies and international studies, and then, a number of years later, once I started back with the SBDC, I got my master's degree in global business management. \n\nDave: Okay, now would, if you'd been a graduate from, say, one of the other large Alabama universities, would that have been a problem in your current role, or are they kind of not as competitive as people are on Saturdays? \n\nCarolyn: No, In fact, because the university manages our grant, they actually manage the grants for a number of the other SBCs located throughout the state. So within Alabama, we have offices located at all of the major universities Auburn, Troy, Jacksonville State, North Alabama, UAH, Alabama State University, South Alabama, West Alabama. I think that's all of them, but many of them, even though they're located at Auburn or at UAH, they can be considered a University of Alabama employee. \n\nDave: Okay, that must be interesting for the folks at Auburn. \n\nCarolyn: It can be. We do have some people that are UA employees but are definitely Auburn fans, and it's okay. \n\nDave: That's wonderful. Yeah, nothing like a nice friendly rivalry, friendly, some friendlier than others. \n\nCarolyn: So the way it doesn't manage all of our centers, some universities still manage their own grants. We'll just see where it goes. \n\nDave: Gotcha, what a great attitude. So let's talk about the SBDC then in Alabama, and that's the Small Business Development Center. Is that what the C stands for? Yes, do you? I know I'm not as familiar with Alabama, but I know like in Texas the SBDC has a really big impact on the small business community. Do you happen to have any types of stats or summary or anything of the economic development that's occurred because of the SBDC or that the SBDC has been involved in? \n\nCarolyn: Absolutely we do. We publish an economic impact report every year. So last year the metrics that we had were in 2000,. We created or helped create in Alabama over 1278 jobs. We worked with a lot. \n\nI know and for a relatively small center, I think it's a pretty big impact. We had nearly 350 new business starts last year and our capital access team helped companies get over $100 million in capital access, whether that be traditional bank loans, sba loan guarantees, startup loans, investment capital all sorts of options. Wow, we do track that over the years as well. So over the last five years combined, we've helped over 7000 job creations, about 1300 new business starts and around 550 million in capital access. \n\nDave: Wow, that's really amazing. \n\nCarolyn: It's a really incredible thing to see the impact that we can have. A few years ago, we informally did an interview of our employees and one of the questions was what is the reason you get out of bed in the morning? Why do you do this job? And the majority decision was the reason why all of us do this is because we love making an impact in our community. \n\nDave: Yeah, that really resonates with me because our business is really serving the same market. It's those privately held, closely held small businesses that seem to be the economic driver of our economy and I find it to be very satisfying to be able to make a difference in those organizations, because they are the bedrock of our communities. So, that's pretty cool. And how long have you been doing this? How long have you been involved with these various entities? \n\nCarolyn: I just celebrated 15 years 15 years, wow. \n\nDave: Well, that's awesome, so obviously you must really enjoy it. \n\nCarolyn: I do. I love my job. I love the different projects that we get to work on and all the different companies. I love seeing the impact that we get to have. One of the downfalls in economic development across the industry is that you have to spend a lot of time and a lot of hours trying to work on projects before something turns to fruition. So being able to be here for the long haul and seeing the results of the work that we do is really inspiring. \n\nDave: Yeah, I bet it is. I bet it is. So why don't we now drill down to the division that you're part of, that's the Economic Development Center. So, at kind of a high level, what are some of the ways that the center helps businesses? \n\nCarolyn: So the Alabama International Trade Center is focused on helping the small and medium-sized companies in Alabama grow through international trade. Our domestic business advisors work on what I call domestic business issues how to start a business, what kind of legal formation do you want, market research on how to grow your business, hiring and firing and tax questions, and quick books and all the basics of how to run a business. \n\nWhen it comes to international, we help them when they are trying to either export or import their products or services. Most of our clients tend to be manufacturers, just because it's, I guess, more common industry knowledge to export a tangible product. But many of companies have services that they can export. So we definitely work with exports of services as well. But the vast majority of our clients are manufacturers. They manufacture some kind of product that has typically been selling successfully domestically for a number of years and then they start branching internationally, and so the way that we work with companies is through a variety of different services. We have educational training sessions available on different international business topics. So about once a month we host an educational seminar on some kind of international business topic. I'm hosting one tomorrow on international documentation, partnered with UP, on the documentation requirements for exporting and importing. In the past we have done sessions on inco terms, classification, export controls, hazardous material, shipping certifications, on how to sell in Europe, general data protection regulations, you name it. We've probably hosted a seminar on that topic, okay. \n\nI have to do one-on-one training. So I will go and visit companies and provide a few hours of one-on-one training on different business topics. Sometimes it's on Zoom. I'm seeing that a lot more often and I think probably across the country. You see this, Teams are not localized anymore. They might have team members spread over the country, and so pretty often we're doing Zoom sessions with clients when they'll bring in at the same time all of their employees from various locations and we'll do a training session on the basics of exporting or the basics of importing or export compliance, those types of things, and it's really great because new to export companies obviously need this training. \n\nYou know they don't know what they're doing, but what we see a lot of is even successful companies. As they grow and hire more people or they have turnover in employees, they'll bring us back in a couple years later and do refresher training, continuous education, for their employees. So that gives a lot of use. And then we also provide guidance on export trade finance. So that's really a niche market kind of separate than our general capital access team. When companies need to get access to the money that they need to manufacture their product for export. Sometimes it can be very challenging for them to get access to a line of credit through a bank, and so we'll talk to them about export working capital programs that exist, export credit insurance that they could get through the XM Bank on how they can mitigate risks of foreign receivables and what companies through all of those options, Because these programs exist to make it less risky for a small to medium size company to start thinking about exporting. \n\nAnd you know, maybe they're exporting $250,000 worth of equipment to Germany or India, and if that customer in Germany or India didn't pay them, that could really hurt their business. I mean, who knows they could go out of business or doesn't pay them $250,000. And so why these programs exist? To make it easier. We also do a lot of market research, so that is one of the great partnerships that we have with the University of Alabama. We provide an internship to University of Alabama students that are then able to come in and help put together these industry specific customized market research reports for our Trade Center clients. \n\nSo whether that maybe they have no idea where they want to export to, and so we're starting from scratch, trying to help them figure out where overseas would be a good target market to start with, or successfully exported to 100 countries, and now they're trying to get into a new one for the first time, or they're having trouble with their existing distributor and they want contact information for other options. So standard research reports for us could take anywhere from 40 to 60 hours and we pay to have access to a lot of databases. As well as being part of the university, we get access to databases through the university, and so we'll pull all these different pieces of information and put together a customized report that companies can use to help develop their export strategy. It's great experience for the students because they get to work real world projects, not just make believe, made up ones, yeah, interaction with the companies usually and it's great information for the clients as well. I mean they would pay thousands and thousand dollars on the private market sector for this kind of research. \n\nDave: Sure, now, and that raises the question I was curious about Is there any? Does the Trade Center generate any revenues from any of its services, or are they all just complimentary? \n\nCarolyn: It's all offered at no fee, so we do not charge for any of the services that we provide. Because our funding comes from the SBA, we are allowed to offer these services at no cost. The only thing we ask in return from our clients is that twice a year, they fill out a survey letting us know it's done a good job, because we have to gather all of that data and our metrics. \n\nYou know we're one of the few organizations that is really judged on our metrics and if we don't meet our goals, if we don't work with enough companies and help them grow and succeed and increase their sales and get access to capital, then we are at risk of losing our funding. So every metric point that we report, every economic impact that we report, is actually backed up by our clients. We're not allowed to claim anything, any kind of success, without their written permission. \n\nDave: Okay, well, that's well. That seems like a really fair trade. You do all this to help these companies and they just have to complete a survey twice a year. That seems like a fair trade. \n\nCarolyn: It's pretty good and we're not just one time. That's one of the other things people think oh, you know, I'll just talk to you one time. No, most of my clients have been working with me for years and for a new to export company. Sometimes that's how long it takes, Other times, you know, they've just grown tremendously over the last few years and it's amazing to see where they've started versus where they are now. \n\nDave: Yeah, that's awesome and I bet you're really popular with your clients because you're providing the service at no out-of-pocket cost to them. \n\nCarolyn: For the most part. Yes, I think our clients are fairly satisfied. We use a net promoter score rating that we track with our clients. It's typically pretty high up there. Every now and then we'll get a client that you know feels like they already know everything, like they don't need any help, but for the most part they're pretty helpful for the help that they receive. \n\nDave: Yeah, I would think so, because they're certainly getting their money's worth, right? \n\nCarolyn: So at least they should feel like it. \n\nI think so. We're constantly adding to our services as industry changes, as things modernize. So, you know, especially during the COVID pandemic, we switched a lot of efforts into online marketing, global website globalizing websites, information on how to do international shipping for direct you know, direct to consumer and e-commerce. We launched a program a few years ago on graphic design, so now we offer graphic design for free so that companies that are trying to upgrade their website so that it's more user-friendly for international users. Or we have a student right now who's creating animation videos for marketing for a couple of companies all at no cost. \n\nDave: That's awesome. Well, I love like case studies stories. I think it really kind of pulls it all together. Do you happen to have any examples of companies you've worked with in the last few years that you could kind of use as a case study and share some of the details? \n\nCarolyn: Absolutely. We do turn in success stories to the SBA every year. That's part of our goals and metrics. I think that definitely makes us a little bit unique. We have a confidentiality agreement with all of our clients, so we're not allowed to discuss specifics of what we do with anyone else without written permission, so it's good that we get these authorized success stories from companies. \n\nOver the last few years we've had quite a variety of different companies that have that we've worked with on these. So last year we worked with a company in Huntsville Polaris Solar Systems, polaris Sensor Technologies, I think is what it was called and we helped them navigate the world of export compliance. They have a regulated, export-controlled technology and so they had to make sure that they were following all the regulations and applying for licenses. We helped them practice their pitch when they were going to be pitching to foreign customers, realizing that the benefits of their products and technologies were actually different in different parts of the world and used in a different way, and so working with them to develop their pitch and their value proposition and introducing them to potential customers overseas. Another example is totally different industry sector. There was a company in a very rural, economically disadvantaged area of the state that had created a company developing very small tractors or very high tech. But the way that they came up with this design, it was easy to build, it was small, it was more affordable for individually run farms or small co-ops. And they had this novel idea of they were either going to manufacture these tractors in northeast Alabama or they would give the design, the blueprints of the tractor, for free, at no cost, to a foreign manufacturer for them to be able to create a manufacturing plant overseas and create local jobs. It's one of the ways that they wanted to give back to the community. Oh, that's how cool is that? It was really cool. \n\nThey changed names a couple of times when we worked with them. It was called Kleber Technologies and so we worked with them way back in the beginning, before they had done any exporting, and we went and visited them and provided in-house training on basics of international shipping and how to do export marketing. Through the years we did market research to help them find customers or distributors and overseas parts of the world. They eventually went and visited and sent pictures of clients in sub-Saharan Africa and Central and Latin America writing on the tractors Last year. So this is probably seven or eight years after we started with them. But last year, at this particular company, one of the Alabama's governor's exports awards oh, wow, because they successfully exported to 50 plus countries now and it's just amazing to see. So I tracked back down the student who had helped work on their market research way back in the beginning. \n\nOh, really I actually did that article on LinkedIn. I said hey, do you remember that project from eight years ago? Look at them now. \n\nDave: Wow, that's really cool. And that first company you mentioned you said they were in Huntsville, right? Yes, and I think a lot of folks outside of Alabama don't realize that Huntsville is like one of the rocket capitals of the US, right, space industry. How would I describe the industry? \n\nCarolyn: Yeah, I mean rocket and space were known for NASA in Huntsville. We also have Redstone Arsenal in Huntsville and FBI, I think, just relocated down there. There's SpaceX activities that are planned, so aerospace, aviation, missile defense is another big one. But then surprisingly, hudson Alpha also is located there and they have been instrumental in genetics, genomics, research, pharmacogenomics, so it definitely kind of covers the gambit. When you take a tour at Hudson Alpha it's really interesting. From one side of the building you can look out and see all the NASA and space technologies, and then inside the building is genomics and genetics and agrogenetic, and then on the other side is cornfields, because that's the real Huntsville. \n\nDave: Wow, that is pretty cool. So this has really been kind of a fun overview for folks who are listening to this, who are in Alabama, who do international trade. What would be the best way for them to learn more? Would you just direct them to the website, or where should they kind of start? Should they just reach out to you? What's the kind of ideal process? \n\nCarolyn: Just go to our website, aitcuaedu. Registration is free. As I said, we don't charge for anything that we do, and within the state of Alabama, we're part of a bigger group called the Export Alabama Alliance, so that's a group of all of the entities in the state that work together to promote trade. So we've got the Governor's International Trade Office, the US Department of Commerce on the federal level, local chambers of commerce, sba, ports, various entities that exist to help promote exporting, and so when you get one of us, you get all of us. We work together as a team to make sure that the companies get the support that they need, no matter what they're trying to do. And then, yeah, I just strongly recommend, no matter what state you're in, google your SBD, because they have a very valuable resource. \n\nDave: That's awesome. Well, as we're wrapping up, I have a couple of kind of more personal wild card type questions just for fun. So you mentioned you joined the organization 15 years ago, and so I'm just curious if you could like go back in time and give advice to your 15 year younger self, knowing what you know now. Like, what advice might you give to yourself with the perspective of 15 years of experience? \n\nCarolyn: That's a tough one. \n\nDave: I know that's what makes it fun Fun for me, not so much fun for you. \n\nCarolyn: I'm a. On a personal note, I am a recovering perfectionist. \n\nDave: Oh yeah, my wife is one of those, but not the recovery stage yet. \n\nCarolyn: That has been a hard lesson to learn. A colleague that I had taught me something and it's a quote that has stuck with me and I tell it to everyone now and it is that you are a human being, not a human doing Okay, so that'd be your advice to yourself is just taking a bit of a chill pill and absolutely. \n\nDave: Yeah, my one of the quotes I like around that subject I also have some perfectionist tendencies is that great quote progress, not perfection. \n\nCarolyn: Yes. \n\nDave: So, although you know there are some things I do push back a little bit, there are some things you need perfection on landing an airplane, open heart surgery, right, I mean, there's some things that you know it pretty much, perfect is the only, the only option. \n\nCarolyn: Yeah, I agree. But in the world of international business I think perfection is not needed and progress is. And you know what I tell my students all the time that are doing these market research reports? Because you know they're so open ended. You could just keep researching for ever and ever and keep on finding more pieces of information. So I focused a lot on quality over quantity. \n\nDave: That is awesome. So by last question and this is a really fun one I think there are two famous or at least you know Texas institutions that have expanded eastward and I'm going to ask you which one you think is had made a bigger difference in your life, if any of them have. What a burger or Bucky's, oh Bucky's. I had a feeling you'd answer that one. \n\nCarolyn: Yeah, it's kind of a saving joke. I mean I think we have two Bucky's in Alabama, maybe three. \n\nDave: According to the research I just pulled up, that as of April 10th of 2023, they'll have four stations in Alabama, but it's not quite clear how many of those are up and running right now. \n\nCarolyn: There is one not far outside of Birmingham, on the path between Birmingham and Atlanta, and it is packed no matter what time of day it is. It's like a town, it's so big. \n\nDave: But Does it have? Is the road it's on called like Bucky's Boulevard too? That seems to be. \n\nCarolyn: I don't think so. I don't know. Maybe, but it's definitely impacted everyone's road trips. I think you can't. \n\nDave: Yeah, I'm told that, not by without stopping at Bucky's. \n\nYeah, I'm told that Alabama has the second most number of Bucky's outside of Texas. So things are, yeah, and it's interesting because they're always Bucky's are always the same, but like in a good way, you know, and the best one, and I've always said that off on a tangent. I've always said that it seems like Bucky's competitive business advantage are the clean restrooms. That seems to be like what they really differentiate. But when you take a big picture, look at it from a business perspective, you're thinking that shouldn't be a sustainable business differentiator. Right, because in theory that anybody could copy that, but for whatever reason, nobody else cares to. \n\nCarolyn: I don't know. I mean, I would say their main competitors would be like the pilots and the lying Jays. Sure, I remember the names of them. But as far as competition, I think that's definite competition there. I think Bucky's is the shop I mean it's, I don't know. Cracker barrel meets gas. \n\nDave: Yeah, yes, yeah. It's hard to describe to somebody who's not been to a Bucky's. \n\nCarolyn: No, but this. \n\nDave: And they seem to be an economic development force because everyone I've ever been to because they need so much land and they always want to be on a busy highway that they oftentimes are not near cities, they're kind of in the middle of nowhere and they're always advertising really high starting hourly wages. So I get the sense that for a lot of these areas that they come into they really bring economic opportunity for folks that live nearby. I mean, it seems like the classic example is the person working the checkout registers Oftentimes seem to be a teenager that lives there locally and I think, man, can you think of a better like part-time job to have in high school than to be making $15 or $18 an hour working at Bucky's inside the air conditioning? Yeah, just talking to folks all day, I don't know. \n*Carolyn: * My high school job was scooping ice cream at Baskin Robbins. Oh that's. I mean with free ice cream perks. \n\nDave: Yeah, that one might have to trump Bucky's. I bet you're. I've always wondered are your hands and wrists and forearms just worn out at the end of the day? Oh my gosh, yes. \n\nCarolyn: And gosh, the first Baskin Robbins I worked at. They used cold water in their faucets where you put the ice cream scoop and it was At my one arm. I had like huge muscle by the end of every summer. \n\nDave: Now did you get used to it then Like by the end of the summer, were you not as fatigued by the end of the day? \n\nCarolyn: Yeah, but then you know, other ice cream shops use hot water to store their ice cream scoops in and it makes a huge difference. \n\nDave: Oh, I bet it does. You know why they use the cold water instead of hot? Yeah, any theory. \n\nCarolyn: Looking back, I think they were just being cheap Okay. \n\nDave: Yeah, because I think I know at home if I'm scooping up several servings. You know, I know the old trick of the hot bowl of water to dip the scooper in to make it work better. The people. \n\nCarolyn: We used to get these, the big old jars of cherries, and they would make us go through and cut them all in half. Oh wow, they would last twice as long, oh wow. Well, Honey, you know I guess. Managing is almost as hard right. \n\nDave: Yeah, that's the beauty of the free enterprise system. Every person tries, you know, gets to do it their way, and all of that. I mean, who knows, maybe the little bit of money they saved, maybe that translated to higher hourly earnings for the employees who knows, maybe, who knows? Carolyn, this has really been a fun conversation. Was there anything I didn't ask you that you wish I had, or anything that we should mention? \n\nCarolyn: I would just say that the world of international trade is constantly changing. Okay, so find a local resource in your area that can keep you up to date. \n\nDave: Okay, that's awesome. Well, I appreciate that and I really appreciate your time today. I've really learned a lot more about the whole SBDC program in general and you've kind of inspired me to take a look the two states I spend the most time in are Texas and Colorado to take the initiative to start to learn more about those organizations Absolutely. \n\nCarolyn: The SBDC team in Texas is absolutely amazing. This is absolutely phenomenal. I'm not sure if I've met anyone from the SBDC Colorado team, but definitely take advantage of your in Texas. \n\nDave: Yeah, I know in Houston. I think it's associated with the University of Houston. I think it's called the U of H SBDC. \n\nCarolyn: I know it's the San Antonio SBDC that does most of international trade work in Texas. \n\nDave: Okay Well that's good to know. I'm going to be in San Antonio in a few weeks. I should check that out. Well, that's great. Well, that's great advice and this has really been a fun conversation and I really appreciate you taking time out of your day to share the story and obviously you have great enthusiasm and passion for what you're doing and that comes through and that's always fun to see people that really are inspired and really focused on how much they enjoy their job. \n\nCarolyn: It makes a big difference when you enjoy what you do For sure, all right. \n\nDave: Well, have a great day, carolyn. \n\nCarolyn: You too. Special Guest: Carolyn Turner.","content_html":"In today's episode of the IC-DISC show, I have a captivating discussion with Carolyn Turner from the Alabama International Trade Center. We uncover fascinating details about Alabama's economic progress and the pivotal role of the Small Business Development Center (SBDC) in boosting job growth and new businesses.
\n\nCarolyn shares inspiring success stories of SBDC clients who utilized free services to export goods successfully. I also learned more about the SBDC's impactful support for small businesses through cost-free assistance.
\n\nWe wrap it up by exploring how SBDC teams in Texas and Colorado foster business growth.
\n\n\n\n
SHOW HIGHLIGHTS
\n\nAbout Alabama International Trade Center
\n![](\"*https://assets.fireside.fm/file/fireside-images/podcasts/images/d/d61cedee-227d-47c8-8d74-3407972d4afc/guests/9/90f5a8d2-d06e-4986-84b7-71b20569988c/avatar_small.jpg?v=0**\"){kind=avatar} | \nCarolyn Turner | \n
(AI transcript provided as supporting material and may contain errors)
\n\nI learned that every state has its own Small Business Development Center focused on increasing the economic impact of small businesses. So we talked about the different ways that the Small Business Development Center in Alabama has had an impact. Carolyn shares some amazing stats as far as job growth, economic investment, new business formations in Alabama that are directly tied to the Small Business Development Center. We also discussed some specific stories of clients of her organization who export and successful export stories and success stories that developed. And then, on a more fun note, we also talked about which Texas retail behemoth has had a bigger impact on her life in Alabama the famous Whataburger or the famous Buckeys and her answer there was pretty interesting. So even if you're not in Alabama, I would recommend that you investigate the Small Business Development Center in your state as well as the exporting arm to take advantage of their free services. This was a great episode and Carolyn has a real passion for helping small businesses and it comes through in the entire conversation.
\n\nCarolyn: I hope you enjoy it as much as I did.
\n\nDave: Good morning, Carolyn. Welcome to the podcast.
\n\nCarolyn: Good morning. Thanks for having me.
\n\nDave: Sure. Now. Where are you? Where are you located today? I'm in Birmingham, Alabama, In Birmingham okay, and so are you a native Alabama. Is that the correct term?
\n\nCarolyn: I've spent most of my life here. Technically, I was born in California, but I grew up in Alabama.
\n\nDave: Got there as quick as you could. That's what we say in Texas.
\n\nCarolyn: I know it gets a bad rep, but it's a pretty good state to live in.
\n\nDave: I know I've been to Alabama several times. We have a client there and always wonderful experiences there. So let's talk about the organization, and I'm really intrigued by this whole structure and I've learned a lot about this from you. So you're technically an employee of the University of Alabama, right?
\n\nCarolyn: Yes.
\n\nDave: But this is part of a bigger structure, so could you maybe give the audience a sense of how everything fits together? So let's maybe start at the top. What's the umbrella organization for everything?
\n\nCarolyn: Sure, so I'm part of America's SBDC that stands for the Small Business Development Center. We are a national organization that's funded mostly through Congress, through the Small Business Administration, and there are these in every state. So Alabama SBDC is part of that organization and in the state of Alabama it's a partnership with the University of Alabama, so this is really considered a federal state partnership. Funding comes through Congress, through the SBA. We get some matching funds through the University of Alabama and the University of Alabama manages our grant.
\n\nDave: Okay.
\n\nCarolyn: Slightly differently in other states. Every state can kind of handle it differently, but in Alabama that's how it's worked for the last 40 plus years.
\n\nDave: Okay, and then within the Alabama SBDC, I guess there's kind of sub organizations, of which the Research and Economic Development Center is one of those kind of subsidiary arms, is that right?
\n\nCarolyn: So the University Office of Research and Economic Development is a UA department. Within the SBDC we have four kind of divisions. We have our domestic business advisors that are just called the SBDC Small Business Development Center. We have our government contracting branch, which recently changed names to APEX. We have the Alabama International Trade Center, which I'm a part of, and then we also have a separate capital access team that is part of the SBDC.
\n\nDave: Okay.
\n\nCarolyn: And within UA, we are housed within the Office of Research and Economic Development. Okay, and that's the dean that we report to.
\n\nDave: Okay, well, that's, and I believe that you're a proud graduate of the University of Alabama.
\n\nCarolyn: Right Double degree graduate yes, I got my undergrad in international marketing in Spanish, with some extra studies and international studies, and then, a number of years later, once I started back with the SBDC, I got my master's degree in global business management.
\n\nDave: Okay, now would, if you'd been a graduate from, say, one of the other large Alabama universities, would that have been a problem in your current role, or are they kind of not as competitive as people are on Saturdays?
\n\nCarolyn: No, In fact, because the university manages our grant, they actually manage the grants for a number of the other SBCs located throughout the state. So within Alabama, we have offices located at all of the major universities Auburn, Troy, Jacksonville State, North Alabama, UAH, Alabama State University, South Alabama, West Alabama. I think that's all of them, but many of them, even though they're located at Auburn or at UAH, they can be considered a University of Alabama employee.
\n\nDave: Okay, that must be interesting for the folks at Auburn.
\n\nCarolyn: It can be. We do have some people that are UA employees but are definitely Auburn fans, and it's okay.
\n\nDave: That's wonderful. Yeah, nothing like a nice friendly rivalry, friendly, some friendlier than others.
\n\nCarolyn: So the way it doesn't manage all of our centers, some universities still manage their own grants. We'll just see where it goes.
\n\nDave: Gotcha, what a great attitude. So let's talk about the SBDC then in Alabama, and that's the Small Business Development Center. Is that what the C stands for? Yes, do you? I know I'm not as familiar with Alabama, but I know like in Texas the SBDC has a really big impact on the small business community. Do you happen to have any types of stats or summary or anything of the economic development that's occurred because of the SBDC or that the SBDC has been involved in?
\n\nCarolyn: Absolutely we do. We publish an economic impact report every year. So last year the metrics that we had were in 2000,. We created or helped create in Alabama over 1278 jobs. We worked with a lot.
\n\nI know and for a relatively small center, I think it's a pretty big impact. We had nearly 350 new business starts last year and our capital access team helped companies get over $100 million in capital access, whether that be traditional bank loans, sba loan guarantees, startup loans, investment capital all sorts of options. Wow, we do track that over the years as well. So over the last five years combined, we've helped over 7000 job creations, about 1300 new business starts and around 550 million in capital access.
\n\nDave: Wow, that's really amazing.
\n\nCarolyn: It's a really incredible thing to see the impact that we can have. A few years ago, we informally did an interview of our employees and one of the questions was what is the reason you get out of bed in the morning? Why do you do this job? And the majority decision was the reason why all of us do this is because we love making an impact in our community.
\n\nDave: Yeah, that really resonates with me because our business is really serving the same market. It's those privately held, closely held small businesses that seem to be the economic driver of our economy and I find it to be very satisfying to be able to make a difference in those organizations, because they are the bedrock of our communities. So, that's pretty cool. And how long have you been doing this? How long have you been involved with these various entities?
\n\nCarolyn: I just celebrated 15 years 15 years, wow.
\n\nDave: Well, that's awesome, so obviously you must really enjoy it.
\n\nCarolyn: I do. I love my job. I love the different projects that we get to work on and all the different companies. I love seeing the impact that we get to have. One of the downfalls in economic development across the industry is that you have to spend a lot of time and a lot of hours trying to work on projects before something turns to fruition. So being able to be here for the long haul and seeing the results of the work that we do is really inspiring.
\n\nDave: Yeah, I bet it is. I bet it is. So why don't we now drill down to the division that you're part of, that's the Economic Development Center. So, at kind of a high level, what are some of the ways that the center helps businesses?
\n\nCarolyn: So the Alabama International Trade Center is focused on helping the small and medium-sized companies in Alabama grow through international trade. Our domestic business advisors work on what I call domestic business issues how to start a business, what kind of legal formation do you want, market research on how to grow your business, hiring and firing and tax questions, and quick books and all the basics of how to run a business.
\n\nWhen it comes to international, we help them when they are trying to either export or import their products or services. Most of our clients tend to be manufacturers, just because it's, I guess, more common industry knowledge to export a tangible product. But many of companies have services that they can export. So we definitely work with exports of services as well. But the vast majority of our clients are manufacturers. They manufacture some kind of product that has typically been selling successfully domestically for a number of years and then they start branching internationally, and so the way that we work with companies is through a variety of different services. We have educational training sessions available on different international business topics. So about once a month we host an educational seminar on some kind of international business topic. I'm hosting one tomorrow on international documentation, partnered with UP, on the documentation requirements for exporting and importing. In the past we have done sessions on inco terms, classification, export controls, hazardous material, shipping certifications, on how to sell in Europe, general data protection regulations, you name it. We've probably hosted a seminar on that topic, okay.
\n\nI have to do one-on-one training. So I will go and visit companies and provide a few hours of one-on-one training on different business topics. Sometimes it's on Zoom. I'm seeing that a lot more often and I think probably across the country. You see this, Teams are not localized anymore. They might have team members spread over the country, and so pretty often we're doing Zoom sessions with clients when they'll bring in at the same time all of their employees from various locations and we'll do a training session on the basics of exporting or the basics of importing or export compliance, those types of things, and it's really great because new to export companies obviously need this training.
\n\nYou know they don't know what they're doing, but what we see a lot of is even successful companies. As they grow and hire more people or they have turnover in employees, they'll bring us back in a couple years later and do refresher training, continuous education, for their employees. So that gives a lot of use. And then we also provide guidance on export trade finance. So that's really a niche market kind of separate than our general capital access team. When companies need to get access to the money that they need to manufacture their product for export. Sometimes it can be very challenging for them to get access to a line of credit through a bank, and so we'll talk to them about export working capital programs that exist, export credit insurance that they could get through the XM Bank on how they can mitigate risks of foreign receivables and what companies through all of those options, Because these programs exist to make it less risky for a small to medium size company to start thinking about exporting.
\n\nAnd you know, maybe they're exporting $250,000 worth of equipment to Germany or India, and if that customer in Germany or India didn't pay them, that could really hurt their business. I mean, who knows they could go out of business or doesn't pay them $250,000. And so why these programs exist? To make it easier. We also do a lot of market research, so that is one of the great partnerships that we have with the University of Alabama. We provide an internship to University of Alabama students that are then able to come in and help put together these industry specific customized market research reports for our Trade Center clients.
\n\nSo whether that maybe they have no idea where they want to export to, and so we're starting from scratch, trying to help them figure out where overseas would be a good target market to start with, or successfully exported to 100 countries, and now they're trying to get into a new one for the first time, or they're having trouble with their existing distributor and they want contact information for other options. So standard research reports for us could take anywhere from 40 to 60 hours and we pay to have access to a lot of databases. As well as being part of the university, we get access to databases through the university, and so we'll pull all these different pieces of information and put together a customized report that companies can use to help develop their export strategy. It's great experience for the students because they get to work real world projects, not just make believe, made up ones, yeah, interaction with the companies usually and it's great information for the clients as well. I mean they would pay thousands and thousand dollars on the private market sector for this kind of research.
\n\nDave: Sure, now, and that raises the question I was curious about Is there any? Does the Trade Center generate any revenues from any of its services, or are they all just complimentary?
\n\nCarolyn: It's all offered at no fee, so we do not charge for any of the services that we provide. Because our funding comes from the SBA, we are allowed to offer these services at no cost. The only thing we ask in return from our clients is that twice a year, they fill out a survey letting us know it's done a good job, because we have to gather all of that data and our metrics.
\n\nYou know we're one of the few organizations that is really judged on our metrics and if we don't meet our goals, if we don't work with enough companies and help them grow and succeed and increase their sales and get access to capital, then we are at risk of losing our funding. So every metric point that we report, every economic impact that we report, is actually backed up by our clients. We're not allowed to claim anything, any kind of success, without their written permission.
\n\nDave: Okay, well, that's well. That seems like a really fair trade. You do all this to help these companies and they just have to complete a survey twice a year. That seems like a fair trade.
\n\nCarolyn: It's pretty good and we're not just one time. That's one of the other things people think oh, you know, I'll just talk to you one time. No, most of my clients have been working with me for years and for a new to export company. Sometimes that's how long it takes, Other times, you know, they've just grown tremendously over the last few years and it's amazing to see where they've started versus where they are now.
\n\nDave: Yeah, that's awesome and I bet you're really popular with your clients because you're providing the service at no out-of-pocket cost to them.
\n\nCarolyn: For the most part. Yes, I think our clients are fairly satisfied. We use a net promoter score rating that we track with our clients. It's typically pretty high up there. Every now and then we'll get a client that you know feels like they already know everything, like they don't need any help, but for the most part they're pretty helpful for the help that they receive.
\n\nDave: Yeah, I would think so, because they're certainly getting their money's worth, right?
\n\nCarolyn: So at least they should feel like it.
\n\nI think so. We're constantly adding to our services as industry changes, as things modernize. So, you know, especially during the COVID pandemic, we switched a lot of efforts into online marketing, global website globalizing websites, information on how to do international shipping for direct you know, direct to consumer and e-commerce. We launched a program a few years ago on graphic design, so now we offer graphic design for free so that companies that are trying to upgrade their website so that it's more user-friendly for international users. Or we have a student right now who's creating animation videos for marketing for a couple of companies all at no cost.
\n\nDave: That's awesome. Well, I love like case studies stories. I think it really kind of pulls it all together. Do you happen to have any examples of companies you've worked with in the last few years that you could kind of use as a case study and share some of the details?
\n\nCarolyn: Absolutely. We do turn in success stories to the SBA every year. That's part of our goals and metrics. I think that definitely makes us a little bit unique. We have a confidentiality agreement with all of our clients, so we're not allowed to discuss specifics of what we do with anyone else without written permission, so it's good that we get these authorized success stories from companies.
\n\nOver the last few years we've had quite a variety of different companies that have that we've worked with on these. So last year we worked with a company in Huntsville Polaris Solar Systems, polaris Sensor Technologies, I think is what it was called and we helped them navigate the world of export compliance. They have a regulated, export-controlled technology and so they had to make sure that they were following all the regulations and applying for licenses. We helped them practice their pitch when they were going to be pitching to foreign customers, realizing that the benefits of their products and technologies were actually different in different parts of the world and used in a different way, and so working with them to develop their pitch and their value proposition and introducing them to potential customers overseas. Another example is totally different industry sector. There was a company in a very rural, economically disadvantaged area of the state that had created a company developing very small tractors or very high tech. But the way that they came up with this design, it was easy to build, it was small, it was more affordable for individually run farms or small co-ops. And they had this novel idea of they were either going to manufacture these tractors in northeast Alabama or they would give the design, the blueprints of the tractor, for free, at no cost, to a foreign manufacturer for them to be able to create a manufacturing plant overseas and create local jobs. It's one of the ways that they wanted to give back to the community. Oh, that's how cool is that? It was really cool.
\n\nThey changed names a couple of times when we worked with them. It was called Kleber Technologies and so we worked with them way back in the beginning, before they had done any exporting, and we went and visited them and provided in-house training on basics of international shipping and how to do export marketing. Through the years we did market research to help them find customers or distributors and overseas parts of the world. They eventually went and visited and sent pictures of clients in sub-Saharan Africa and Central and Latin America writing on the tractors Last year. So this is probably seven or eight years after we started with them. But last year, at this particular company, one of the Alabama's governor's exports awards oh, wow, because they successfully exported to 50 plus countries now and it's just amazing to see. So I tracked back down the student who had helped work on their market research way back in the beginning.
\n\nOh, really I actually did that article on LinkedIn. I said hey, do you remember that project from eight years ago? Look at them now.
\n\nDave: Wow, that's really cool. And that first company you mentioned you said they were in Huntsville, right? Yes, and I think a lot of folks outside of Alabama don't realize that Huntsville is like one of the rocket capitals of the US, right, space industry. How would I describe the industry?
\n\nCarolyn: Yeah, I mean rocket and space were known for NASA in Huntsville. We also have Redstone Arsenal in Huntsville and FBI, I think, just relocated down there. There's SpaceX activities that are planned, so aerospace, aviation, missile defense is another big one. But then surprisingly, hudson Alpha also is located there and they have been instrumental in genetics, genomics, research, pharmacogenomics, so it definitely kind of covers the gambit. When you take a tour at Hudson Alpha it's really interesting. From one side of the building you can look out and see all the NASA and space technologies, and then inside the building is genomics and genetics and agrogenetic, and then on the other side is cornfields, because that's the real Huntsville.
\n\nDave: Wow, that is pretty cool. So this has really been kind of a fun overview for folks who are listening to this, who are in Alabama, who do international trade. What would be the best way for them to learn more? Would you just direct them to the website, or where should they kind of start? Should they just reach out to you? What's the kind of ideal process?
\n\nCarolyn: Just go to our website, aitcuaedu. Registration is free. As I said, we don't charge for anything that we do, and within the state of Alabama, we're part of a bigger group called the Export Alabama Alliance, so that's a group of all of the entities in the state that work together to promote trade. So we've got the Governor's International Trade Office, the US Department of Commerce on the federal level, local chambers of commerce, sba, ports, various entities that exist to help promote exporting, and so when you get one of us, you get all of us. We work together as a team to make sure that the companies get the support that they need, no matter what they're trying to do. And then, yeah, I just strongly recommend, no matter what state you're in, google your SBD, because they have a very valuable resource.
\n\nDave: That's awesome. Well, as we're wrapping up, I have a couple of kind of more personal wild card type questions just for fun. So you mentioned you joined the organization 15 years ago, and so I'm just curious if you could like go back in time and give advice to your 15 year younger self, knowing what you know now. Like, what advice might you give to yourself with the perspective of 15 years of experience?
\n\nCarolyn: That's a tough one.
\n\nDave: I know that's what makes it fun Fun for me, not so much fun for you.
\n\nCarolyn: I'm a. On a personal note, I am a recovering perfectionist.
\n\nDave: Oh yeah, my wife is one of those, but not the recovery stage yet.
\n\nCarolyn: That has been a hard lesson to learn. A colleague that I had taught me something and it's a quote that has stuck with me and I tell it to everyone now and it is that you are a human being, not a human doing Okay, so that'd be your advice to yourself is just taking a bit of a chill pill and absolutely.
\n\nDave: Yeah, my one of the quotes I like around that subject I also have some perfectionist tendencies is that great quote progress, not perfection.
\n\nCarolyn: Yes.
\n\nDave: So, although you know there are some things I do push back a little bit, there are some things you need perfection on landing an airplane, open heart surgery, right, I mean, there's some things that you know it pretty much, perfect is the only, the only option.
\n\nCarolyn: Yeah, I agree. But in the world of international business I think perfection is not needed and progress is. And you know what I tell my students all the time that are doing these market research reports? Because you know they're so open ended. You could just keep researching for ever and ever and keep on finding more pieces of information. So I focused a lot on quality over quantity.
\n\nDave: That is awesome. So by last question and this is a really fun one I think there are two famous or at least you know Texas institutions that have expanded eastward and I'm going to ask you which one you think is had made a bigger difference in your life, if any of them have. What a burger or Bucky's, oh Bucky's. I had a feeling you'd answer that one.
\n\nCarolyn: Yeah, it's kind of a saving joke. I mean I think we have two Bucky's in Alabama, maybe three.
\n\nDave: According to the research I just pulled up, that as of April 10th of 2023, they'll have four stations in Alabama, but it's not quite clear how many of those are up and running right now.
\n\nCarolyn: There is one not far outside of Birmingham, on the path between Birmingham and Atlanta, and it is packed no matter what time of day it is. It's like a town, it's so big.
\n\nDave: But Does it have? Is the road it's on called like Bucky's Boulevard too? That seems to be.
\n\nCarolyn: I don't think so. I don't know. Maybe, but it's definitely impacted everyone's road trips. I think you can't.
\n\nDave: Yeah, I'm told that, not by without stopping at Bucky's.
\n\nYeah, I'm told that Alabama has the second most number of Bucky's outside of Texas. So things are, yeah, and it's interesting because they're always Bucky's are always the same, but like in a good way, you know, and the best one, and I've always said that off on a tangent. I've always said that it seems like Bucky's competitive business advantage are the clean restrooms. That seems to be like what they really differentiate. But when you take a big picture, look at it from a business perspective, you're thinking that shouldn't be a sustainable business differentiator. Right, because in theory that anybody could copy that, but for whatever reason, nobody else cares to.
\n\nCarolyn: I don't know. I mean, I would say their main competitors would be like the pilots and the lying Jays. Sure, I remember the names of them. But as far as competition, I think that's definite competition there. I think Bucky's is the shop I mean it's, I don't know. Cracker barrel meets gas.
\n\nDave: Yeah, yes, yeah. It's hard to describe to somebody who's not been to a Bucky's.
\n\nCarolyn: No, but this.
\n\nDave: And they seem to be an economic development force because everyone I've ever been to because they need so much land and they always want to be on a busy highway that they oftentimes are not near cities, they're kind of in the middle of nowhere and they're always advertising really high starting hourly wages. So I get the sense that for a lot of these areas that they come into they really bring economic opportunity for folks that live nearby. I mean, it seems like the classic example is the person working the checkout registers Oftentimes seem to be a teenager that lives there locally and I think, man, can you think of a better like part-time job to have in high school than to be making $15 or $18 an hour working at Bucky's inside the air conditioning? Yeah, just talking to folks all day, I don't know.
\n*Carolyn: * My high school job was scooping ice cream at Baskin Robbins. Oh that's. I mean with free ice cream perks.
Dave: Yeah, that one might have to trump Bucky's. I bet you're. I've always wondered are your hands and wrists and forearms just worn out at the end of the day? Oh my gosh, yes.
\n\nCarolyn: And gosh, the first Baskin Robbins I worked at. They used cold water in their faucets where you put the ice cream scoop and it was At my one arm. I had like huge muscle by the end of every summer.
\n\nDave: Now did you get used to it then Like by the end of the summer, were you not as fatigued by the end of the day?
\n\nCarolyn: Yeah, but then you know, other ice cream shops use hot water to store their ice cream scoops in and it makes a huge difference.
\n\nDave: Oh, I bet it does. You know why they use the cold water instead of hot? Yeah, any theory.
\n\nCarolyn: Looking back, I think they were just being cheap Okay.
\n\nDave: Yeah, because I think I know at home if I'm scooping up several servings. You know, I know the old trick of the hot bowl of water to dip the scooper in to make it work better. The people.
\n\nCarolyn: We used to get these, the big old jars of cherries, and they would make us go through and cut them all in half. Oh wow, they would last twice as long, oh wow. Well, Honey, you know I guess. Managing is almost as hard right.
\n\nDave: Yeah, that's the beauty of the free enterprise system. Every person tries, you know, gets to do it their way, and all of that. I mean, who knows, maybe the little bit of money they saved, maybe that translated to higher hourly earnings for the employees who knows, maybe, who knows? Carolyn, this has really been a fun conversation. Was there anything I didn't ask you that you wish I had, or anything that we should mention?
\n\nCarolyn: I would just say that the world of international trade is constantly changing. Okay, so find a local resource in your area that can keep you up to date.
\n\nDave: Okay, that's awesome. Well, I appreciate that and I really appreciate your time today. I've really learned a lot more about the whole SBDC program in general and you've kind of inspired me to take a look the two states I spend the most time in are Texas and Colorado to take the initiative to start to learn more about those organizations Absolutely.
\n\nCarolyn: The SBDC team in Texas is absolutely amazing. This is absolutely phenomenal. I'm not sure if I've met anyone from the SBDC Colorado team, but definitely take advantage of your in Texas.
\n\nDave: Yeah, I know in Houston. I think it's associated with the University of Houston. I think it's called the U of H SBDC.
\n\nCarolyn: I know it's the San Antonio SBDC that does most of international trade work in Texas.
\n\nDave: Okay Well that's good to know. I'm going to be in San Antonio in a few weeks. I should check that out. Well, that's great. Well, that's great advice and this has really been a fun conversation and I really appreciate you taking time out of your day to share the story and obviously you have great enthusiasm and passion for what you're doing and that comes through and that's always fun to see people that really are inspired and really focused on how much they enjoy their job.
\n\nCarolyn: It makes a big difference when you enjoy what you do For sure, all right.
\n\nDave: Well, have a great day, carolyn.
\n\nCarolyn: You too.
Special Guest: Carolyn Turner.
","summary":"In today's episode of the IC-DISC show, I have a captivating discussion with Carolyn Turner from the Alabama International Trade Center. We uncover fascinating details about Alabama's economic progress and the pivotal role of the Small Business Development Center (SBDC) in boosting job growth and new businesses. \r\n\r\nCarolyn shares inspiring success stories of SBDC clients who utilized free services to export goods successfully. I also learned more about the SBDC's impactful support for small businesses through cost-free assistance. \r\n\r\nWe wrap it up by exploring how SBDC teams in Texas and Colorado foster business growth.","date_published":"2023-12-13T09:00:00.000-06:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/d61cedee-227d-47c8-8d74-3407972d4afc/26754cb3-fa69-4699-a106-eb0c4e2fae56.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":25151643,"duration_in_seconds":2046}]},{"id":"5221d8f2-3157-47e3-8919-97c3aca6c3d3","title":"Ep049: Demystifying Virtual Family Offices with Mark Wade","url":"https://www.ic-discshow.com/049","content_text":"In today's episode of the IC-DISC show, I chat with Mark Wade, founder and president of Echelon Virtual Family Office. Mark shares insights into virtual family office services, tailored for those with substantial wealth not needing a standalone family office. We also discuss premium-financed life insurance structures and how they serve individuals with several million dollars in assets. \n\nMark outlines the origins of virtual family offices, tracing back to the Rockefellers. We learn they now cater to those with $10 million or more in assets. Additionally, Mark describes optimizing value when selling a business through pre-sale coordination, marketing strategy, and deploying post-liquidity event assets. \n\nWe conclude by examining indexed universal life insurance advantages and investing in index funds, real estate, and small businesses. Overall, this informative episode underscores wealth management options and leveraging life insurance through Mark's insights\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n \n\nSHOW HIGHLIGHTS\n\n\nIn this episode I chat with Mark Wade, the founder and president of Echelon Virtual Family Office, How He provides services to wealthy individuals who need family office services but do not justify having a standalone family office.\nMark elaborates on the concept of a virtual family office, highlighting that it originated with the Rockefellers. He explains that these services are typically available to those with a net worth of $10 million or more.\nWe discuss the process of leveraging life insurance through premium financing, with Mark emphasizing that the coordination of various financial professionals and providers is key to unlocking a business's value.\nMark and I delve into the process of pre-sale value creation, marketing to potential buyers, and the deployment of assets after a liquidity event.\nWe explore the struggle of successful business owners in transitioning from their roles after a liquidity event, and the satisfaction derived from making a difference in people's lives.\nWe discuss the concept of premium financed life insurance and how Etch-A-Lan uses it strategically.\nMark describes the process of bank financing with collateral and contribution, explaining how clients can sign a personal loan and provide collateral.\nWe discuss how despite a higher interest rate environment, the strategy of bank financing remains potent due to policy flexibility.\nMark and I examine the benefits of indexed universal life insurance and the advantages of investing in index funds, rental real estate, and small business ownership.\nFinally, we celebrate the power of self-confidence and the wisdom gleaned from financial experiences.\n\n\n\n\nLINKSShow Notes\nBe a Guest\nAbout IC-DISC Alliance\nAbout Echelon Wealth Strategies\n\n\nGUEST\n\n\n\nMark WadeAbout Mark\n\n\n\n\n\nTRANSCRIPT\n\n(AI transcript provided as supporting material and may contain errors)\n\n\n\nDavid: Hi, this is David Spray, and welcome to another episode of the ICDisc Show. My guest today is Mark Wade, the president and founder of Etch-A-Lan Virtual Family Office. They work with families who have a need for family office services but whose net worth does not justify having a standalone family office, so they serve these families and add a lot of value. We had a great interview talking about some of the things they do to add value, and then we also talked about an interesting structure that they are familiar with around leveraging life insurance through premium financing in what he describes as a quote modern structure. I have some familiarity with premium finance life insurance but Mark's approach is really interesting. We also talked about things he wish he had known when he was younger and advice he would have given himself. So this is a great episode for really anybody who has accumulated several million dollars of wealth or more who's interested in learning more about the options available to them to manage their wealth. I hope you enjoy this episode as much as I did. \n\nGood morning, mark. Welcome to the podcast. Good morning. How are you today? I am great. So where are you calling in from today? What part of the world are you in? \n\nMark: Today we're calling in from sunny Venice, florida, on the Gulf Coast. \n\nDavid: Venice. Okay, what's the nearest large city that Venice is near or larger? \n\nMark:20 miles south of Sarasota Okay. \n\nDavid: Excellent. I love that. That's the largest city. I love that part of Florida. So I'm kind of a sequential learner. I like to kind of start in the beginning. Are you a native Floridian or are you from somewhere else? \n\nMark: I was born and raised in Newark, new Jersey, and lived my childhood in New Jersey and, as I, when I graduated college. Since then I've been all over the country, coast to coast. I've spent part of my corporate career, my earlier corporate career, west of the Mississippi, headquartered out of Florida where, I'm sorry, out of California, where I ran west of Mississippi for one of the major brokerage firms, and then, when I went independent in 1999, relocated back to the East Coast again. So I'm currently a Florida resident. \n\nDavid: Awesome. Yeah, so I'm a Texan and it's like Texas and Florida seem to be like kindred spirits. You know the similar philosophies on a lot of things, and with a fair amount of Gulf Coast Beach front. That's right. So talk to me about echelon virtual family office. What's the history? What made you start it? Who are you set up to serve? Tell me the story. \n\nMark: Yeah, great. So echelon virtual family office really started in 19 as a state and succession planning firm. Okay, business owners have been our focus for many years, though we do serve some at this point quite a few C level corporate executives, upper level corporate executives and retirees from both the business world and the corporate world. So echelon virtual family office is an evolution of that original practice. And you know, as a virtual family office, most people have heard of the Rockefellers and they've heard of the Vanderbilt's and you know the Rockefellers got it right and unfortunately, the Vanderbilt's didn't, and they meaning the Rockefellers really came up with the concept of a virtual family office. You want me to just give a brief run down to what a family office does. Yeah, please do that for those that might not have heard of it or not that familiar with it. \n\nSo the Rockefellers figured out years ago that instead of sourcing a variety of outside professionals, instead of going to outside attorneys and accountants and real estate people and mortgage people and bankers and so on and so forth, you know, john Rockefeller figured out that he could just go ahead and hire all those people inside, because he created enough wealth in order to do that. Nowadays, by the way to create your own family office. It makes sense when you have about 250 million dollars of net worth, okay, so below that, a family might employ the services of a multi-family office, which is where a variety of people, a multitude of people, who typically have about 50 million and larger, would use the same services of a family office. That is a for-profit family office. So some of the people from the private family office one day said, well, we could do this and earn a living at it as a standalone company. So they created a multi-family office and for the last 10 years, myself and a mastermind group that I belong to there's about 220 of us now we started working on this concept of bringing family office services. So it's really all of those core services that everybody knows accounting, legal real estate, banking, mortgage, investment, so on and so forth. Everyone's familiar with those. But some of the more esoteric ones are some of the more more specialized ones, like personal security, trademark law, international banking. \n\nSo some of the more sophisticated family services not end to include some of the tax driven ones, but you know specific types of tax strategy. \n\nYou know we are able now to source those on behalf of our clients and provide a network of national experts that are part of our virtual family office and bring those down to clients. We say typically a business owner or or a retired executive or an existing corporate. We are able to bring that down to where it really starts to make sense for individuals at about the $10 million level. Okay, we figure at about a $10 million level we can really start driving some what we call true and meaningful value to the bottom line. We can start making a huge difference for those families in a variety of different ways and to provide some economies of scale to it, because you know when they're, when these specialists are part of our virtual family office, they're used to deal flow from us and so they give our clients some consideration. So that's the idea from 250 million to 50. Okay, pretty much the same types of services that were offered to the people that 250. \n\nDavid: Okay, no, thank you for that. That makes sense, and so it sounds like you just identified a need in the market in that 10 to $50 million network range where the this virtual family office made more sense for people there who was more attractive than a multifamily office structure. Is that about right? \n\nMark: Yeah, clearly, once, once you. So I should tell you we have clients today that are 5 million because they have specific needs that we can address expeditiously and cost effectively. So we have clients that are smaller than 10 million. Typically your clients are 10 million net worth and larger and we have them all the way up to 165 million. So but you kind of write the way you described it we're able to bring under a family or an individual with with less than 50 million. We're able to bring them those family office services that only you know the private family offices used to be able to source in the past. \n\nDavid: Okay, so I love stories, so could you give us, like, think of the and obviously you don't need to share the name of a client, but, you know, think of a client where your service really a difference. Can you just one come to mind? You can kind of give a little bit of the background, what their pain point was, how you were able to make a substantial improvement in their situation. \n\nMark: Yeah, so you know, but you know so it's relevant to a wider swath of people, instead of talking about the exceptional ones I won't do that I'm going to talk about. I'm going to talk about what we commonly see. Okay, that sounds good Because it may be more relevant to, like I said, to water swath of people, and so I cannot remember the last time we had somebody show up if they have ever shown up and they have had all their financial work done, all their legal work done, coordinate and I'm talking about their personal and have coordinated that successfully with their business or corporate world, because it's the marriage of the personal and business, financial and legal affairs. That's where the real, that's where the real magic happens, right, okay? And when you think about it, when was the last time, dave, when was the last time somebody sat down and said to you, dave, I just exited a meeting with my accountant and my attorney and my banker and my pension plan manager and our insurance specialist and we just sat down and talk for hours about me. It just doesn't happen. \n\nAnd so it's the coordination and the direction of all that effort from those various providers that's what drives, I like we say, the true and meaningful value for our clients. So I'm going to you know, I'm going to say that in the areas of wanting to unlock the value, I'm going to say that for a, if they're a business owner wanting to unlock the value, the equity they've created in their firm, whether it's for further investment, for personal investment or because they're looking to succeed, they're looking to transfer the ownership, they're looking to take a strategic sale to an outside buyer, whether it's a internal sale to employees or a succession to family members. \n\nYou know there's a tremendous amount of value that's derived from that process. Okay, so I'm going to say that in the pre sale, value creation and unlocking that value, and then to the in the process, marketing of an entity to the alright. So now I've collected this. Let's just put a number on a 1020 million dollars or whatever the number is. I've gotten my liquidity event. Now what do I do? And it's not just, it's not just the deployment of the assets, it's really now, what do I do? I mean, I can't play golf every day. I can't go around the world vacation all year long every year. What do I do? It's the next step is what's their next, what's the next project for them, because oftentimes that's what it is. Successful business owners find it extremely difficult to just turn off the computer and walk away. \n\nDavid: Sure sure, of course, of course. Okay, well, thank you. Well, that is helpful. What? What do you find the most satisfying about you all with the company? \n\nMark: That's a great question, Wow. Well, you know, Dave, this is the only thing I've done for 44 years. Over 44 years. I've only ever done what I do today. \n\nOkay, and as a lot of your associates probably are able to say, we don't do this anymore because we have to do it for the money. We do it for a lot of other reasons too, and part of which is it's kind of in our being and who we are and it's how we self fulfill, right, and a lot of the drive behind doing what I do today is making a difference. That sounds kind of corny, but it really does. After 44 years of doing tax strategy and financial advising and business exit strategy and retirement planning and all the different planning subspecialties that fall into that. We don't do it just for the money, Don't get me wrong. It's nice to be paid well, but it's the impact that we have and the lives that we affect, oftentimes for people we will never meet, because they're people in the future. They're the heirs of people that we'll never meet and lots of times it's the heirs of the clients. They'll never meet them either. So knowing that we have had that kind of impact that's, an intergenerational impact is 100%. What does it for me nowadays? \n\nAnd it's solving oftentimes these complex and comprehensive problems that you really have to have a lot of time in the barrel and a lot of experience and a really deep bench of people to rely on. Those complex and uncomplicated problems oftentimes are the ones that make or break a family's future. So helping to walk clients through that process it's painting a renaissance picture from the standpoint of you have an idea what it's going to end like. You have an idea of where you're going. But the interrelational family dynamics take you left and right and sometimes it backs you up and sometimes it moves you forward. But going through that process it's so rewarding to see the impact you've had on a family. \n\nAnd oftentimes it's problems that some families don't deal with and oftentimes it's issues that a lot of families deal with. Sometimes it's we have to deal with substance abuse issues and helping our clients get the right help there. I mean we've had opportunities where well, just recently this Afghan war, the withdrawal out of Afghanistan we had a corporate client where we shipped a couple million dollars overseas and a couple of talented and rough guys parachuted into Afghanistan to pick up this guy's daughter who was doing a medical mission for the local population somewhere in the hills and this whole thing kind of exploded quicker than they can expect and a couple of guys wanting to rescue this woman from Afghanistan. Right down to helping our clients prepare their children to accept this kind of responsibility themselves in the future. \n\nWealth comes with its own issues. Many of our clients are self-made people. Many of our clients created their wealth or increased family wealth, and so now how do you prepare your children and grandchildren to carry that on? So there's just a variety of things that we get involved with by introducing our clients to the appropriate specialists in those areas. Like I said, we have over 60 in our network now. \n\nDavid: Okay, well, thank you for that color. I'd like to drill down into a subject that I know a little bit about, but your firm seems to have a little different approach to that. I would just like to talk about that's premium financed life insurance. So can you start by, for listeners that aren't familiar with it, what it is and kind of what the purpose of it is, and then kind of get into the strategy that you all take. That's maybe a little different than some others. \n\nMark: Yeah. So you know, people think about life insurance and they say, oh, I don't like life insurance or I don't believe in life insurance. And we get it because, let's face it, the only people that really want to want life insurance are oftentimes the ones who can't have it. Right. Right, they find themselves in a position and they say, oh man, I really should have life insurance because this is a problem. Now, for whatever their reason health or otherwise they don't qualify for it anymore. But in all other cases that I can think of, you know, life insurance is just a tool. Right, it's just another tool. Keeps on mark what's the good life insurance versus the bad life insurance? And we say, well, oftentimes it's not a matter of what's good life insurance or bad life insurance, it's policy. Design is oftentimes a critical factor, but more often than not, if we just say life insurance is a tool, you know it comes down to the mechanic Okay, Okay, do you use the life insurance in the proper way or what it was intended, and do you design the policy correctly, meaning the agent and the tax specialist. Do you design the policy correctly? Do you own it correctly? Do you fund it correctly? And then, later on, do you access the money correctly. So let's go back to that third one, the funding element. \n\nIf I know that it's a tool and life insurance does many things, it's kind of like a Swiss army knife. What do we need for it to do today? Well, today we need a death benefit or, you know, maybe we're going to need it for a. You know? You know, some of the largest owners of life insurance are their Fortune 500 companies and banking institutions. You know banking institutions and Fortune 500 companies. They own this stuff because it's part of what they call their tier one capital. And in the banking world, the bank's tier one capital is that money that has to be the safest and the most protected. And so what do banks use for that? Oftentimes they use life insurance. They use, boldly, bank owned life insurance. Okay, in the corporate world, they use Koli corporate owned life insurance. \n\nSo if we know that it's just a tool and we know that how you pay for it is very important and it circles back to your premium financing, you know what are the ways you can do it? You can pay for your life insurance out of assets, you can pay for your life insurance through a corporation and those where that's applicable and that becomes less and less effective nowadays, but nevertheless, there were still great opportunities to do that, or you can have somebody else make the premium payments for you, and that's where premium finance, life insurance, comes in, and oftentimes it involves it involves having arrangement with a banking institution, and the banks love this because, from their perspective, financing your life insurance policy is a guaranteed investment. Yeah, and it's where the obvious reason why none of us is leaving here without passing away Right, you know, at some point we're all going to pass away, so it's a guaranteed investment for them. So banks are typically very interested in financing these life insurance policies. Banks have gotten significantly intelligent. They look for certain types of policies that do certain things with the right provisions and the right protections for them and own the proper way. So premium finance there's a lot of different types of premium finance out there and there have been different scenarios for years. They come and go as the markets shift and the wind shift, along with interest rates and so forth. \n\nBut one of these purposes that we see life insurance our clients really warming up to the concept of premium finance nowadays is in the wealth creation process. So we know life insurance provides a death benefit, and oftentimes you can get the bank to provide financing so you can buy more death benefit than you might be able to or might want to pay for, or on your own. Sure, but another more popular way nowadays well, maybe equally popular, but certainly has risen in popularity is in the wealth creation process, whereby you can have a bank, add additional premium dollars to your premium dollars and those monies accumulate inside that policy for you on a tax deferred basis. Right, because insurance companies they get treated especially from all other corporations in the world, so that money multiplies inside the policy for the benefit of the owner and eventually the beneficiaries at some day. But as those policy values grow and grow, because part of it's your money and a much larger part is the bank's money in there, you get to earn money on the bank's money and it's really an arbitrage between interest rates, right, it's how much is the bank charging me to borrow the money versus how much can I earn on that money. And so we've been, you know we've been really fortunate. You know, over the last two decades I have tremendous positive arbitrage on the on those premium dollars and our clients have enjoyed tremendous policy cash value increase, which then they have been able to borrow on the back end, which is one of the preferred ways to do it to borrow your own money out and pay yourself back, right, right so. So the various flavors of being able to borrow that money. \n\nSome financing scenarios where you sign a personal loan at the bank and you provide collateral and the bank can call you at any time and say, hey, you need to increase that collateral because markets have moved against you and we need more money to shore up our policy, cash value. And then there are those type of policies out there Now the newer designs. The financing scenario says hey, for the first five years you put up half and we'll put up half, so let's use a $50,000 premium. So for the first five years, david, you put up $25,000 a year and we, the bank, will put up $25,000 a year and at the end of five years your commitment is done. You don't have to put any more money into this policy. But for the next five years so from years six to 10, we'll put in the $50,000 on your behalf. We'll add that additional premium dollars on your behalf. \n\nSo it works out typically between where the bank puts in about just approximate numbers. It depends on age and health. Well, the bank might put in 70% of the premium dollars, you might put in 30. And then at the end of 15 years, so a five year period, a five year. So the first five year period you share in depositing premiums. The second five years the bank puts in the premium dollars, and then the third five years that money just sits there and marinate and percolates and hopefully continues to grow like it has over the last couple of decades. And then at the end of 15 years the bank will say, okay, we're going to take our premium dollars back now with the interest that has accrued. You get everything else left in the policy. \n\nSo that is an extremely popular scenario that has worked incredibly well for our clients and it's amazing the wealth that can be accumulated inside these policies to access later on, either through withdrawal while the client's alive or typically what's more effective is a policy loan while the client's alive, a loan that the client presumably will never pay back, and when the client passes away it just comes out of the death benefit. So here's the beauty. The beauty is these more, these newer, more effective designs. The client signs no loan for the bank's premium contribution. The client puts up no collateral for the bank's premium contribution. The policy itself is all the bank needs, and the way of collateral Got you. The bank has what's called a collateral assignment against it. Well, it's all sees, all yours. \n\nDavid: Yep, and then so would this be like a 10 pay policy, like there's contractually 10 years of payments. Is that typically what it is, or is that payment duration dependent on market forces? What's? \n\nMark:the tip that 10 year structure is the typical structure. The only reason why it would be different is if the client wanted it to be different. Really couldn't be shorter. \n\nDavid: Because of the modified endowment contract. \n\nMark: Yeah, well said, you can only get so much cash into those things in a short period of time. So that's the whole. Yes, to front load the deposits as quickly as you can. Well, not violating any tax code. Tamar defer, so yeah, so that's exactly right. So it must be 10 years. You could fund it in five years, but then you wouldn't get the other five years of the bank's contribution Exactly Right and you'd likely hit the Mech parameters if you just funded it for five years, right? \n\nIt's possible. Yeah, it depends on depending on health and age. Yeah, and because these policies are flexible, you can always adjust the death benefit to make it work. Yeah, but the real magic there is in the bank's share of contribution to that policy. Yeah, five years you share. You put money in. The bank puts money in the second five years only. The bank puts money in the third five years. It just continues to grow and at the end of 15 years the bank takes their money out and it's all yours. There's sums that have been accumulated in these policies has been astronomical, really. It's a very effective way to do it without having to commit you know collateral or sign a bank loan. Yeah, the bank uses the policy as the entire collateral required. \n\nDavid: Yeah, no, it's really an interesting approach. You'd mentioned how effective that had been the last 20 years because of that positive arbitrage between interest rates and earnings. So what are the thinking? How's that? \n\nMark: going to change. \n\nDavid: Now that we're in a higher interest rate environment and, at least for the time being, a lower earnings environment, it seems like that arbitrage has flipped the other way. How does that still work then, in that scenario? \n\nMark: Well, here's what we know. We know that some of the smartest people out there in the finance world work for insurance companies and banks. Right, these people? They don't lose money. Insurance companies don't lose money typically, at least not in the life insurance business and to my knowledge, no banks have ever lost money financing any of these policies. So really, that just leaves the policy, the holder, right, the person who's going to benefit from the actual policy itself and their heirs. And I can tell you this the insurance companies they don't underwrite things that are not going to work and the banks will not invest their capital in things that are not going to work. \n\nYes, interest rates have risen precipitously and nobody knows in the near term what will happen, because it's everything's a speculation. Today, you know, the expectation is maybe they're going to bump rates up one or two more times before they start reversing course and hopefully by the end of 2024, they see rates coming down. But it's all speculation, it's all just what we hear from the experts. But long term, I can tell you, over rolling 10 year periods still, what's one of the safest, what's one of the most consistent places that you can have capital. You know great dividend paying stocks. You know the wonderful corporations of America. You're the small business owner who is competent, effective and willing to assume some risk of owning his own business has always been a tremendous way to do it. \n\nRental, real estate, you know, other than those three things, what do you really have? So you have to deploy capital somewhere and, that being the case, having and, by the way, the type of policies that have proven to be most effective or effective today in this area. You know these indexed universal life policies. The underlying investments are tied to an investment index. Most typical ones are the S&P 500 and NASDAQ. You know, even in times of tremendous pressure on these markets, every academic will tell you and everybody who's in the securities business will say, it's just hard to beat the long term returns on America's best companies. They continue to grow for a reason. \n\nDavid: Yeah, well, that's why I think it was Warren Buffett that advised his heirs to just put all the money in index funds, because when you look at the cost and performance, and yeah I mean, it turns out that it's really hard to beat the market over a long period of time. \n\nMark: We did have that thing called the lost decade. You know, just look at where we are today from then. Yeah, look at where the market sits today from where it was in 2008 and 2009. It's just staggering, right. \n\nSo these type of policies, it's like it's a great marriage because you can participate in the upward climb of the underlying markets, of the S&P 500 or NASDAQ or whatever next, or in these particular policies. You can participate in that, but you don't participate in the loss, and by that I mean the effect of the market can only be positive on your policy. These policies are protected against a loss due to a market value adjustment, due to a down market. Your policy, your policies, are going to earn zero or some positive return and you're not going to lose money because the market went down. Right, hold out a negative market value adjustment, a downward market, a guarantee against a negative market value adjustment and B just to re-go, there's our video back and B. They know you're going to pass away at some point and the worst case scenario is they're going to collect when you pass away. \n\nYeah, if you die in less than 15 years, they'll collect. That's correct. That's correct. So it's a win for the banks and, of course, the insurance companies always make money, sure. So the downside when we look at this is what else would we do with our money? The opportunity costs, yeah. What else would we do with our money if we didn't have it invested into America's greatest companies, if we didn't invest in our own business and our own abilities, or an investment in real estate? And if you remember, in 2008 and 2009, the stock market and real estate plummeted at the same time. Right, it was the first time what we call the uncoupling of those assets. Typically, real estate goes up and the market goes down. Market goes up, real estate Typically, there's some, there's their link in some way shape. Well, this time they were linked. All right, they both went down dramatically. \n\nDavid: Yeah, okay. So I can't believe how the time has flown by. I've got just a couple more questions before we wrap up. What do you wish you knew when you were 25? Wow, I wish. Or if you could go back and here's the way I meant to phrase it If you could go back in time and give advice to your 25 year old self, knowing what you know now what advice? And that you give yourself Confidence. \n\nMark: Okay, what do you mean? Knowledge? Well, have confidence in yourself. Okay, have confidence. Have confidence in your ability to learn. Always learn, continue to learn and expand your mind. Don't draw yourself into this cone of specificity. This world has changed so many times. Have the confidence to be flexible. Have the confidence to step out and do different things. Expand your knowledge. And then the other thing is you oftentimes don't know what you don't know right, and sometimes it only comes with experience and the wisdom comes from the experience that you've been. You know those experiences that you've endured along the way. Don't let that deter you. \n\nDick Vitale has a great new book out called Never Give Up. Yeah, it's kind of. It's kind of his story about persevering. I'm fortunate enough to be in that book. Oh, you are. I have one of the chapters in that book. I co-authored one of the chapters along with Dick Vitale, so it's it's. It's a little bit about my story of never giving up. So have the confidence. I didn't know that I'd be able to do all the things I can do today when I was 20 or 25 years old. Okay. \n\nDavid: Just don't know. Sure, no, that's great. I love it. Well, as we wrap up, is there anything that I didn't ask you, that you wish I had asked you? \n\nMark: Well, I think we covered a couple of extremely important topics. You know, we do have three other entities in addition to Echelon Virtual Family Office, echelon Asset Protection, echelon Resource Teams. So there are a couple other companies that we could talk about at another time, if your audience is interested. \n\nDavid: Okay, well, that sounds great. Well, mark, I really appreciate you taking time out this morning to talk to me. I really love your story. I love the advice you give to yourself. I really enjoyed learning more about this more modern structure of premium finance, where there's maybe not quite as much leverage upside, but there's a lot less downside for the participant in terms of no personal guarantee and no collateral posting required. So thank you for that insight and just for your time and your enthusiasm for what you do. So thank you. \n\nMark: David, thanks so much. It's been a pleasure being your guest today and I wish you well in your podcast, continued success. Thanks, mark. Special Guest: Mark Wade.","content_html":"In today's episode of the IC-DISC show, I chat with Mark Wade, founder and president of Echelon Virtual Family Office. Mark shares insights into virtual family office services, tailored for those with substantial wealth not needing a standalone family office. We also discuss premium-financed life insurance structures and how they serve individuals with several million dollars in assets.
\n\nMark outlines the origins of virtual family offices, tracing back to the Rockefellers. We learn they now cater to those with $10 million or more in assets. Additionally, Mark describes optimizing value when selling a business through pre-sale coordination, marketing strategy, and deploying post-liquidity event assets.
\n\nWe conclude by examining indexed universal life insurance advantages and investing in index funds, real estate, and small businesses. Overall, this informative episode underscores wealth management options and leveraging life insurance through Mark's insights
\n\n\n\n
SHOW HIGHLIGHTS
\n\nAbout Echelon Wealth Strategies
\n![](\"https://assets.fireside.fm/file/fireside-images/podcasts/images/d/d61cedee-227d-47c8-8d74-3407972d4afc/guests/c/c116ac26-ccf1-40c9-acc1-98306f45e82e/avatar_small.jpg?v=0\"){kind=avatar} | \nMark Wade | \n
(AI transcript provided as supporting material and may contain errors)
\n\nDavid: Hi, this is David Spray, and welcome to another episode of the ICDisc Show. My guest today is Mark Wade, the president and founder of Etch-A-Lan Virtual Family Office. They work with families who have a need for family office services but whose net worth does not justify having a standalone family office, so they serve these families and add a lot of value. We had a great interview talking about some of the things they do to add value, and then we also talked about an interesting structure that they are familiar with around leveraging life insurance through premium financing in what he describes as a quote modern structure. I have some familiarity with premium finance life insurance but Mark's approach is really interesting. We also talked about things he wish he had known when he was younger and advice he would have given himself. So this is a great episode for really anybody who has accumulated several million dollars of wealth or more who's interested in learning more about the options available to them to manage their wealth. I hope you enjoy this episode as much as I did.
\n\nGood morning, mark. Welcome to the podcast. Good morning. How are you today? I am great. So where are you calling in from today? What part of the world are you in?
\n\nMark: Today we're calling in from sunny Venice, florida, on the Gulf Coast.
\n\nDavid: Venice. Okay, what's the nearest large city that Venice is near or larger?
\n\nMark:20 miles south of Sarasota Okay.
\n\nDavid: Excellent. I love that. That's the largest city. I love that part of Florida. So I'm kind of a sequential learner. I like to kind of start in the beginning. Are you a native Floridian or are you from somewhere else?
\n\nMark: I was born and raised in Newark, new Jersey, and lived my childhood in New Jersey and, as I, when I graduated college. Since then I've been all over the country, coast to coast. I've spent part of my corporate career, my earlier corporate career, west of the Mississippi, headquartered out of Florida where, I'm sorry, out of California, where I ran west of Mississippi for one of the major brokerage firms, and then, when I went independent in 1999, relocated back to the East Coast again. So I'm currently a Florida resident.
\n\nDavid: Awesome. Yeah, so I'm a Texan and it's like Texas and Florida seem to be like kindred spirits. You know the similar philosophies on a lot of things, and with a fair amount of Gulf Coast Beach front. That's right. So talk to me about echelon virtual family office. What's the history? What made you start it? Who are you set up to serve? Tell me the story.
\n\nMark: Yeah, great. So echelon virtual family office really started in 19 as a state and succession planning firm. Okay, business owners have been our focus for many years, though we do serve some at this point quite a few C level corporate executives, upper level corporate executives and retirees from both the business world and the corporate world. So echelon virtual family office is an evolution of that original practice. And you know, as a virtual family office, most people have heard of the Rockefellers and they've heard of the Vanderbilt's and you know the Rockefellers got it right and unfortunately, the Vanderbilt's didn't, and they meaning the Rockefellers really came up with the concept of a virtual family office. You want me to just give a brief run down to what a family office does. Yeah, please do that for those that might not have heard of it or not that familiar with it.
\n\nSo the Rockefellers figured out years ago that instead of sourcing a variety of outside professionals, instead of going to outside attorneys and accountants and real estate people and mortgage people and bankers and so on and so forth, you know, john Rockefeller figured out that he could just go ahead and hire all those people inside, because he created enough wealth in order to do that. Nowadays, by the way to create your own family office. It makes sense when you have about 250 million dollars of net worth, okay, so below that, a family might employ the services of a multi-family office, which is where a variety of people, a multitude of people, who typically have about 50 million and larger, would use the same services of a family office. That is a for-profit family office. So some of the people from the private family office one day said, well, we could do this and earn a living at it as a standalone company. So they created a multi-family office and for the last 10 years, myself and a mastermind group that I belong to there's about 220 of us now we started working on this concept of bringing family office services. So it's really all of those core services that everybody knows accounting, legal real estate, banking, mortgage, investment, so on and so forth. Everyone's familiar with those. But some of the more esoteric ones are some of the more more specialized ones, like personal security, trademark law, international banking.
\n\nSo some of the more sophisticated family services not end to include some of the tax driven ones, but you know specific types of tax strategy.
\n\nYou know we are able now to source those on behalf of our clients and provide a network of national experts that are part of our virtual family office and bring those down to clients. We say typically a business owner or or a retired executive or an existing corporate. We are able to bring that down to where it really starts to make sense for individuals at about the $10 million level. Okay, we figure at about a $10 million level we can really start driving some what we call true and meaningful value to the bottom line. We can start making a huge difference for those families in a variety of different ways and to provide some economies of scale to it, because you know when they're, when these specialists are part of our virtual family office, they're used to deal flow from us and so they give our clients some consideration. So that's the idea from 250 million to 50. Okay, pretty much the same types of services that were offered to the people that 250.
\n\nDavid: Okay, no, thank you for that. That makes sense, and so it sounds like you just identified a need in the market in that 10 to $50 million network range where the this virtual family office made more sense for people there who was more attractive than a multifamily office structure. Is that about right?
\n\nMark: Yeah, clearly, once, once you. So I should tell you we have clients today that are 5 million because they have specific needs that we can address expeditiously and cost effectively. So we have clients that are smaller than 10 million. Typically your clients are 10 million net worth and larger and we have them all the way up to 165 million. So but you kind of write the way you described it we're able to bring under a family or an individual with with less than 50 million. We're able to bring them those family office services that only you know the private family offices used to be able to source in the past.
\n\nDavid: Okay, so I love stories, so could you give us, like, think of the and obviously you don't need to share the name of a client, but, you know, think of a client where your service really a difference. Can you just one come to mind? You can kind of give a little bit of the background, what their pain point was, how you were able to make a substantial improvement in their situation.
\n\nMark: Yeah, so you know, but you know so it's relevant to a wider swath of people, instead of talking about the exceptional ones I won't do that I'm going to talk about. I'm going to talk about what we commonly see. Okay, that sounds good Because it may be more relevant to, like I said, to water swath of people, and so I cannot remember the last time we had somebody show up if they have ever shown up and they have had all their financial work done, all their legal work done, coordinate and I'm talking about their personal and have coordinated that successfully with their business or corporate world, because it's the marriage of the personal and business, financial and legal affairs. That's where the real, that's where the real magic happens, right, okay? And when you think about it, when was the last time, dave, when was the last time somebody sat down and said to you, dave, I just exited a meeting with my accountant and my attorney and my banker and my pension plan manager and our insurance specialist and we just sat down and talk for hours about me. It just doesn't happen.
\n\nAnd so it's the coordination and the direction of all that effort from those various providers that's what drives, I like we say, the true and meaningful value for our clients. So I'm going to you know, I'm going to say that in the areas of wanting to unlock the value, I'm going to say that for a, if they're a business owner wanting to unlock the value, the equity they've created in their firm, whether it's for further investment, for personal investment or because they're looking to succeed, they're looking to transfer the ownership, they're looking to take a strategic sale to an outside buyer, whether it's a internal sale to employees or a succession to family members.
\n\nYou know there's a tremendous amount of value that's derived from that process. Okay, so I'm going to say that in the pre sale, value creation and unlocking that value, and then to the in the process, marketing of an entity to the alright. So now I've collected this. Let's just put a number on a 1020 million dollars or whatever the number is. I've gotten my liquidity event. Now what do I do? And it's not just, it's not just the deployment of the assets, it's really now, what do I do? I mean, I can't play golf every day. I can't go around the world vacation all year long every year. What do I do? It's the next step is what's their next, what's the next project for them, because oftentimes that's what it is. Successful business owners find it extremely difficult to just turn off the computer and walk away.
\n\nDavid: Sure sure, of course, of course. Okay, well, thank you. Well, that is helpful. What? What do you find the most satisfying about you all with the company?
\n\nMark: That's a great question, Wow. Well, you know, Dave, this is the only thing I've done for 44 years. Over 44 years. I've only ever done what I do today.
\n\nOkay, and as a lot of your associates probably are able to say, we don't do this anymore because we have to do it for the money. We do it for a lot of other reasons too, and part of which is it's kind of in our being and who we are and it's how we self fulfill, right, and a lot of the drive behind doing what I do today is making a difference. That sounds kind of corny, but it really does. After 44 years of doing tax strategy and financial advising and business exit strategy and retirement planning and all the different planning subspecialties that fall into that. We don't do it just for the money, Don't get me wrong. It's nice to be paid well, but it's the impact that we have and the lives that we affect, oftentimes for people we will never meet, because they're people in the future. They're the heirs of people that we'll never meet and lots of times it's the heirs of the clients. They'll never meet them either. So knowing that we have had that kind of impact that's, an intergenerational impact is 100%. What does it for me nowadays?
\n\nAnd it's solving oftentimes these complex and comprehensive problems that you really have to have a lot of time in the barrel and a lot of experience and a really deep bench of people to rely on. Those complex and uncomplicated problems oftentimes are the ones that make or break a family's future. So helping to walk clients through that process it's painting a renaissance picture from the standpoint of you have an idea what it's going to end like. You have an idea of where you're going. But the interrelational family dynamics take you left and right and sometimes it backs you up and sometimes it moves you forward. But going through that process it's so rewarding to see the impact you've had on a family.
\n\nAnd oftentimes it's problems that some families don't deal with and oftentimes it's issues that a lot of families deal with. Sometimes it's we have to deal with substance abuse issues and helping our clients get the right help there. I mean we've had opportunities where well, just recently this Afghan war, the withdrawal out of Afghanistan we had a corporate client where we shipped a couple million dollars overseas and a couple of talented and rough guys parachuted into Afghanistan to pick up this guy's daughter who was doing a medical mission for the local population somewhere in the hills and this whole thing kind of exploded quicker than they can expect and a couple of guys wanting to rescue this woman from Afghanistan. Right down to helping our clients prepare their children to accept this kind of responsibility themselves in the future.
\n\nWealth comes with its own issues. Many of our clients are self-made people. Many of our clients created their wealth or increased family wealth, and so now how do you prepare your children and grandchildren to carry that on? So there's just a variety of things that we get involved with by introducing our clients to the appropriate specialists in those areas. Like I said, we have over 60 in our network now.
\n\nDavid: Okay, well, thank you for that color. I'd like to drill down into a subject that I know a little bit about, but your firm seems to have a little different approach to that. I would just like to talk about that's premium financed life insurance. So can you start by, for listeners that aren't familiar with it, what it is and kind of what the purpose of it is, and then kind of get into the strategy that you all take. That's maybe a little different than some others.
\n\nMark: Yeah. So you know, people think about life insurance and they say, oh, I don't like life insurance or I don't believe in life insurance. And we get it because, let's face it, the only people that really want to want life insurance are oftentimes the ones who can't have it. Right. Right, they find themselves in a position and they say, oh man, I really should have life insurance because this is a problem. Now, for whatever their reason health or otherwise they don't qualify for it anymore. But in all other cases that I can think of, you know, life insurance is just a tool. Right, it's just another tool. Keeps on mark what's the good life insurance versus the bad life insurance? And we say, well, oftentimes it's not a matter of what's good life insurance or bad life insurance, it's policy. Design is oftentimes a critical factor, but more often than not, if we just say life insurance is a tool, you know it comes down to the mechanic Okay, Okay, do you use the life insurance in the proper way or what it was intended, and do you design the policy correctly, meaning the agent and the tax specialist. Do you design the policy correctly? Do you own it correctly? Do you fund it correctly? And then, later on, do you access the money correctly. So let's go back to that third one, the funding element.
\n\nIf I know that it's a tool and life insurance does many things, it's kind of like a Swiss army knife. What do we need for it to do today? Well, today we need a death benefit or, you know, maybe we're going to need it for a. You know? You know, some of the largest owners of life insurance are their Fortune 500 companies and banking institutions. You know banking institutions and Fortune 500 companies. They own this stuff because it's part of what they call their tier one capital. And in the banking world, the bank's tier one capital is that money that has to be the safest and the most protected. And so what do banks use for that? Oftentimes they use life insurance. They use, boldly, bank owned life insurance. Okay, in the corporate world, they use Koli corporate owned life insurance.
\n\nSo if we know that it's just a tool and we know that how you pay for it is very important and it circles back to your premium financing, you know what are the ways you can do it? You can pay for your life insurance out of assets, you can pay for your life insurance through a corporation and those where that's applicable and that becomes less and less effective nowadays, but nevertheless, there were still great opportunities to do that, or you can have somebody else make the premium payments for you, and that's where premium finance, life insurance, comes in, and oftentimes it involves it involves having arrangement with a banking institution, and the banks love this because, from their perspective, financing your life insurance policy is a guaranteed investment. Yeah, and it's where the obvious reason why none of us is leaving here without passing away Right, you know, at some point we're all going to pass away, so it's a guaranteed investment for them. So banks are typically very interested in financing these life insurance policies. Banks have gotten significantly intelligent. They look for certain types of policies that do certain things with the right provisions and the right protections for them and own the proper way. So premium finance there's a lot of different types of premium finance out there and there have been different scenarios for years. They come and go as the markets shift and the wind shift, along with interest rates and so forth.
\n\nBut one of these purposes that we see life insurance our clients really warming up to the concept of premium finance nowadays is in the wealth creation process. So we know life insurance provides a death benefit, and oftentimes you can get the bank to provide financing so you can buy more death benefit than you might be able to or might want to pay for, or on your own. Sure, but another more popular way nowadays well, maybe equally popular, but certainly has risen in popularity is in the wealth creation process, whereby you can have a bank, add additional premium dollars to your premium dollars and those monies accumulate inside that policy for you on a tax deferred basis. Right, because insurance companies they get treated especially from all other corporations in the world, so that money multiplies inside the policy for the benefit of the owner and eventually the beneficiaries at some day. But as those policy values grow and grow, because part of it's your money and a much larger part is the bank's money in there, you get to earn money on the bank's money and it's really an arbitrage between interest rates, right, it's how much is the bank charging me to borrow the money versus how much can I earn on that money. And so we've been, you know we've been really fortunate. You know, over the last two decades I have tremendous positive arbitrage on the on those premium dollars and our clients have enjoyed tremendous policy cash value increase, which then they have been able to borrow on the back end, which is one of the preferred ways to do it to borrow your own money out and pay yourself back, right, right so. So the various flavors of being able to borrow that money.
\n\nSome financing scenarios where you sign a personal loan at the bank and you provide collateral and the bank can call you at any time and say, hey, you need to increase that collateral because markets have moved against you and we need more money to shore up our policy, cash value. And then there are those type of policies out there Now the newer designs. The financing scenario says hey, for the first five years you put up half and we'll put up half, so let's use a $50,000 premium. So for the first five years, david, you put up $25,000 a year and we, the bank, will put up $25,000 a year and at the end of five years your commitment is done. You don't have to put any more money into this policy. But for the next five years so from years six to 10, we'll put in the $50,000 on your behalf. We'll add that additional premium dollars on your behalf.
\n\nSo it works out typically between where the bank puts in about just approximate numbers. It depends on age and health. Well, the bank might put in 70% of the premium dollars, you might put in 30. And then at the end of 15 years, so a five year period, a five year. So the first five year period you share in depositing premiums. The second five years the bank puts in the premium dollars, and then the third five years that money just sits there and marinate and percolates and hopefully continues to grow like it has over the last couple of decades. And then at the end of 15 years the bank will say, okay, we're going to take our premium dollars back now with the interest that has accrued. You get everything else left in the policy.
\n\nSo that is an extremely popular scenario that has worked incredibly well for our clients and it's amazing the wealth that can be accumulated inside these policies to access later on, either through withdrawal while the client's alive or typically what's more effective is a policy loan while the client's alive, a loan that the client presumably will never pay back, and when the client passes away it just comes out of the death benefit. So here's the beauty. The beauty is these more, these newer, more effective designs. The client signs no loan for the bank's premium contribution. The client puts up no collateral for the bank's premium contribution. The policy itself is all the bank needs, and the way of collateral Got you. The bank has what's called a collateral assignment against it. Well, it's all sees, all yours.
\n\nDavid: Yep, and then so would this be like a 10 pay policy, like there's contractually 10 years of payments. Is that typically what it is, or is that payment duration dependent on market forces? What's?
\n\nMark:the tip that 10 year structure is the typical structure. The only reason why it would be different is if the client wanted it to be different. Really couldn't be shorter.
\n\nDavid: Because of the modified endowment contract.
\n\nMark: Yeah, well said, you can only get so much cash into those things in a short period of time. So that's the whole. Yes, to front load the deposits as quickly as you can. Well, not violating any tax code. Tamar defer, so yeah, so that's exactly right. So it must be 10 years. You could fund it in five years, but then you wouldn't get the other five years of the bank's contribution Exactly Right and you'd likely hit the Mech parameters if you just funded it for five years, right?
\n\nIt's possible. Yeah, it depends on depending on health and age. Yeah, and because these policies are flexible, you can always adjust the death benefit to make it work. Yeah, but the real magic there is in the bank's share of contribution to that policy. Yeah, five years you share. You put money in. The bank puts money in the second five years only. The bank puts money in the third five years. It just continues to grow and at the end of 15 years the bank takes their money out and it's all yours. There's sums that have been accumulated in these policies has been astronomical, really. It's a very effective way to do it without having to commit you know collateral or sign a bank loan. Yeah, the bank uses the policy as the entire collateral required.
\n\nDavid: Yeah, no, it's really an interesting approach. You'd mentioned how effective that had been the last 20 years because of that positive arbitrage between interest rates and earnings. So what are the thinking? How's that?
\n\nMark: going to change.
\n\nDavid: Now that we're in a higher interest rate environment and, at least for the time being, a lower earnings environment, it seems like that arbitrage has flipped the other way. How does that still work then, in that scenario?
\n\nMark: Well, here's what we know. We know that some of the smartest people out there in the finance world work for insurance companies and banks. Right, these people? They don't lose money. Insurance companies don't lose money typically, at least not in the life insurance business and to my knowledge, no banks have ever lost money financing any of these policies. So really, that just leaves the policy, the holder, right, the person who's going to benefit from the actual policy itself and their heirs. And I can tell you this the insurance companies they don't underwrite things that are not going to work and the banks will not invest their capital in things that are not going to work.
\n\nYes, interest rates have risen precipitously and nobody knows in the near term what will happen, because it's everything's a speculation. Today, you know, the expectation is maybe they're going to bump rates up one or two more times before they start reversing course and hopefully by the end of 2024, they see rates coming down. But it's all speculation, it's all just what we hear from the experts. But long term, I can tell you, over rolling 10 year periods still, what's one of the safest, what's one of the most consistent places that you can have capital. You know great dividend paying stocks. You know the wonderful corporations of America. You're the small business owner who is competent, effective and willing to assume some risk of owning his own business has always been a tremendous way to do it.
\n\nRental, real estate, you know, other than those three things, what do you really have? So you have to deploy capital somewhere and, that being the case, having and, by the way, the type of policies that have proven to be most effective or effective today in this area. You know these indexed universal life policies. The underlying investments are tied to an investment index. Most typical ones are the S&P 500 and NASDAQ. You know, even in times of tremendous pressure on these markets, every academic will tell you and everybody who's in the securities business will say, it's just hard to beat the long term returns on America's best companies. They continue to grow for a reason.
\n\nDavid: Yeah, well, that's why I think it was Warren Buffett that advised his heirs to just put all the money in index funds, because when you look at the cost and performance, and yeah I mean, it turns out that it's really hard to beat the market over a long period of time.
\n\nMark: We did have that thing called the lost decade. You know, just look at where we are today from then. Yeah, look at where the market sits today from where it was in 2008 and 2009. It's just staggering, right.
\n\nSo these type of policies, it's like it's a great marriage because you can participate in the upward climb of the underlying markets, of the S&P 500 or NASDAQ or whatever next, or in these particular policies. You can participate in that, but you don't participate in the loss, and by that I mean the effect of the market can only be positive on your policy. These policies are protected against a loss due to a market value adjustment, due to a down market. Your policy, your policies, are going to earn zero or some positive return and you're not going to lose money because the market went down. Right, hold out a negative market value adjustment, a downward market, a guarantee against a negative market value adjustment and B just to re-go, there's our video back and B. They know you're going to pass away at some point and the worst case scenario is they're going to collect when you pass away.
\n\nYeah, if you die in less than 15 years, they'll collect. That's correct. That's correct. So it's a win for the banks and, of course, the insurance companies always make money, sure. So the downside when we look at this is what else would we do with our money? The opportunity costs, yeah. What else would we do with our money if we didn't have it invested into America's greatest companies, if we didn't invest in our own business and our own abilities, or an investment in real estate? And if you remember, in 2008 and 2009, the stock market and real estate plummeted at the same time. Right, it was the first time what we call the uncoupling of those assets. Typically, real estate goes up and the market goes down. Market goes up, real estate Typically, there's some, there's their link in some way shape. Well, this time they were linked. All right, they both went down dramatically.
\n\nDavid: Yeah, okay. So I can't believe how the time has flown by. I've got just a couple more questions before we wrap up. What do you wish you knew when you were 25? Wow, I wish. Or if you could go back and here's the way I meant to phrase it If you could go back in time and give advice to your 25 year old self, knowing what you know now what advice? And that you give yourself Confidence.
\n\nMark: Okay, what do you mean? Knowledge? Well, have confidence in yourself. Okay, have confidence. Have confidence in your ability to learn. Always learn, continue to learn and expand your mind. Don't draw yourself into this cone of specificity. This world has changed so many times. Have the confidence to be flexible. Have the confidence to step out and do different things. Expand your knowledge. And then the other thing is you oftentimes don't know what you don't know right, and sometimes it only comes with experience and the wisdom comes from the experience that you've been. You know those experiences that you've endured along the way. Don't let that deter you.
\n\nDick Vitale has a great new book out called Never Give Up. Yeah, it's kind of. It's kind of his story about persevering. I'm fortunate enough to be in that book. Oh, you are. I have one of the chapters in that book. I co-authored one of the chapters along with Dick Vitale, so it's it's. It's a little bit about my story of never giving up. So have the confidence. I didn't know that I'd be able to do all the things I can do today when I was 20 or 25 years old. Okay.
\n\nDavid: Just don't know. Sure, no, that's great. I love it. Well, as we wrap up, is there anything that I didn't ask you, that you wish I had asked you?
\n\nMark: Well, I think we covered a couple of extremely important topics. You know, we do have three other entities in addition to Echelon Virtual Family Office, echelon Asset Protection, echelon Resource Teams. So there are a couple other companies that we could talk about at another time, if your audience is interested.
\n\nDavid: Okay, well, that sounds great. Well, mark, I really appreciate you taking time out this morning to talk to me. I really love your story. I love the advice you give to yourself. I really enjoyed learning more about this more modern structure of premium finance, where there's maybe not quite as much leverage upside, but there's a lot less downside for the participant in terms of no personal guarantee and no collateral posting required. So thank you for that insight and just for your time and your enthusiasm for what you do. So thank you.
\n\nMark: David, thanks so much. It's been a pleasure being your guest today and I wish you well in your podcast, continued success. Thanks, mark.
Special Guest: Mark Wade.
","summary":"In today's episode of the IC-DISC show, I chat with Mark Wade, founder and president of Echelon Virtual Family Office. Mark shares insights into virtual family office services, tailored for those with substantial wealth not needing a standalone family office. We also discuss premium-financed life insurance structures and how they serve individuals with several million dollars in assets. \r\n\r\nMark outlines the origins of virtual family offices, tracing back to the Rockefellers. We learn they now cater to those with $10 million or more in assets. Additionally, Mark describes optimizing value when selling a business through pre-sale coordination, marketing strategy, and deploying post-liquidity event assets. \r\n\r\nWe conclude by examining indexed universal life insurance advantages and investing in index funds, real estate, and small businesses. Overall, this informative episode underscores wealth management options and leveraging life insurance through Mark's insights","date_published":"2023-11-15T08:00:00.000-06:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/d61cedee-227d-47c8-8d74-3407972d4afc/5221d8f2-3157-47e3-8919-97c3aca6c3d3.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":26288980,"duration_in_seconds":2159}]},{"id":"76074da4-5e3d-42e4-8012-eafb290a423b","title":"Ep048: Redefining Business Financing with Jerry Vaughn","url":"https://www.ic-discshow.com/048","content_text":"In today's episode of the IC-DISC Show, we chat with Jerry Vaughn, founder and president of J Gault, a company revolutionizing business financing. Jerry explains how J Gault enables Main Street businesses to reap corporate credit opportunities by leveraging their EINs and NOT having to provide a personal guarantee.\n\nHe shares insightful stories of entrepreneurs who, thanks to J Gault, secured lower interest rates and increased funding despite lacking revenue history or business plans. As Jerry describes, J Gault's approach prepares companies for economic uncertainty while ensuring they emerge stronger.\n\nWhether you're an entrepreneur looking to scale up or a small business owner pursuing growth, this discussion with Jerry Vaughn illuminates the transformative potential available by accessing business credit innovatively.\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n \n\nSHOW HIGHLIGHTS\n\n\nThe episode features a conversation with Jerry Vaughn, the founder and president of J Galt, a company revolutionizing business financing.\nJerry explains how Main Street companies can leverage their Employer Identification Numbers (EINs) to build corporate credit and access competitive rates.\nReal-life examples, such as Randy, a contractor from North Carolina, and a real estate investor from Texas, demonstrate how J Galt has helped transform businesses by improving their funding.\nJerry emphasizes that J Galt's approach is not just about securing funding, but also preparing businesses for unpredictable events and ensuring their resilience.\nOne of the major benefits of J Gault's approach is allowing smaller companies to avoid personal guarantees when accessing corporate credit opportunities.\nThe company offers a membership program that provides lifetime support, including cash flow management services, business valuation assistance, and exit strategy planning.\nThere are rules for \"fundability\" that businesses need to adhere to, such as having a business bank account, a registered phone number, a website, and a corporate email address.\nBuilding company credit on the EIN number and avoiding personal guarantees is a secret to accessing cash flow, according to Jerry.\nJerry mentions that the mission of J Gault goes beyond merely selling—it's about serving and educating entrepreneurs and small business owners.\nThe episode emphasizes that just because a business is labeled small doesn't mean it has to stay that way. With the right financing strategies, businesses can scale and grow.\n\n\n\n\nLINKSShow Notes\nBe a Guest\nAbout IC-DISC Alliance\nAbout J.Galt Finance Suite\n\n\nGUEST\n\n\n\nJerry VaughnAbout Jerry\n\n\n\n\n\nTRANSCRIPT\n\n(AI transcript provided as supporting material and may contain errors)\n\n\nDavid: Hi, this is David Spray and welcome to another episode of the IC-DISC show. I had a great guest on today, jerry Vaughn, who's the founder and president of J Gault, and for those of you who are big and Rand fans, you may recognize that name. It's inspired by the character John Gault from the book Atlas Shrug by Ayn Rand. So J Gault is a disruptor in the business financing world and basically they allow main street companies privately held, closely held, small to medium sized companies to get access to the same corporate credit opportunities that large public companies have. And one of the biggest benefits of this approach is it allows smaller companies to get rid of the personal guarantee. \n\nI know for many of my clients that's one of their big frustrations is they really don't want to be personally guaranteeing business credit, business debt. Oftentimes it's because their spouse isn't keen on using their house as collateral for a business loan. So it's a great episode. We talk about a variety of different things some stories about customers of theirs. They have a membership program and it's really a great service that I find to be really intriguing. So I hope you enjoy the episode as much as I did. Good morning, jerry. Welcome to the podcast. How are you doing today? \n\nJerry: I'm doing fantastic, David. I appreciate you having me on today. \n\nDavid: Well, my pleasure. So where are you calling in from today? What part of the world are you in? \n\nJerry: A big metropolis of Indianapolis, Indiana. \n\nDavid: Ah well, one of your suburbs, I think, has the most roundabouts of any city in the country, carmel. \n\nJerry: Yes, Carmel. Carmel in California and Carmel in Indiana just like the candy you would eat. \n\nDavid: Sure, have you been through any of those famous Carmel roundabouts? \n\nJerry: Actually, where I live, carmel Fisher's, nobleville it's the city sister city is a roundabout. Yes, I actually like them. At first I was like what is this? But actually it moves traffic and sufficient as long as the people in front of you know understand. \n\nDavid: Yeah, I actually heard a podcast with the mayor of Carmel, because something like Carmel accounts for more than 50% of all the roundabouts in the US. It's a crazy number. And he was talking about all the benefits and he said the only drawback. He said there's a few times during the day, like peak traffic times, where it's arguably a little less efficient. But he said the other 23 and a half hours a day it's far more efficient because you never have to wait for a stoplight. And he talked to me have you ever been driving in the middle of the night and you come up to a stoplight and there's no traffic within a mile any direction? But technically you're supposed to wait for the lights to turn. \n\nJerry: That is correct technically. \n\nDavid: Technically correct, I find. If it's three o'clock in the morning, I ask myself have I had any drinks this evening? And if I have, then I'm going to wait for the lights to turn. If I hadn't had any drinks that night, then how much trouble can I get into? \n\nJerry: That is exactly right. I do the same thing. I'm like, well, there's nobody anywhere, you sit there and it feels like it's been 10 minutes, probably been a couple. But I'm like, really, why am I sitting here to stoplight? \n\nDavid: I know so are you a native of Indiana? \n\nJerry: I am. I was actually born in Hoopston, illinois, but we grew up in a western city in Indiana, so almost to the border. But I've grown up as a Hoosier most of my life, okay. \n\nDavid: Nice Bye, folks, and fun Bye. Get into your business. So the name of the company resonated with me immediately because there's a character in one of my all-time favorite books by the name of John Galt and there's a famous phrase from the book called who is John Galt? Now, is this just coincidence, this JGalt, or is there any connection? \n\nJerry: Well, I'm glad that you brought that up because it doesn't stand for Jerry Galt, I can tell you that. So we couldn't use John Galt because it's obviously patent and has a huge following. But it is off the premise of the book Atlas Shrugged by Anne Rand. So who is John Galt? The whole story of the government takeover, small business and controls and regulations and all of that and that fish, you know book that was written by a Russian immigrant that understood communism, came over. She saw it in the 1940s and she said what is going on? I'm saying the same stuff right here. So she wrote that fictional book in the 50s, as you know. But it's kind of a big deal and it's coming out and there's a big following and people get it. But yeah, you're exactly right, it is John Galt. \n\nDavid: So it's probably actually not a bad filtering process, because I find that there's three types of people in the world. There's people who've read Atlas Shrugged and think it's one of the greatest artistic works of all time. There's folks who've read it and think she's the devil and it's the worst thing ever written. And then there's folks who've never heard of it. So I find that people tend to follow one of three camps. There's not many people that are like yeah, I think I read it, I think I vaguely remember something about it. So it's probably a good self-selection process, right? Because the people who read it and think it's the most evil book ever written probably aren't the mindset of your ideal customer. \n\nJerry: I'm guessing it's pretty close right, but it's surprising on how many people know, even myself. As we name the company, you know your particular activation system in your head, just like when we buy a car. Right then, after we buy a car, you start driving around like man. Look at all the people that bought the car I have this is great following my lead. \n\nNow, they were already there. I see who is John Galt stickers on the back of bumpers and on the back of their windshield. I've just it blows me away. But you're exactly right. Most of the entrepreneurs, because we are working only with main street business owners. Okay, small and medium-sized companies, not the wall street companies. So those are the people we're serving and most of them all of us that own businesses and have done that get the challenges and the works and we're just trying to do the best we can to serve the communities and then build a profitable and a great company with our services or products. \n\nDavid: Sure no, I like it. So her book, the Fountainhead, I have a slight preference for, like I mean they're my two favorite books, you know fictional books ever written, for sure. But I have a slight preference for the Fountainhead but only because the individualistic aspect. I assume you've read the Fountainhead too yes the individualistic aspect of the Fountainhead just resonates a little more. There's a great line in there where work has to sell an architectural commission to a committee and the committee all wanted to make changes to it and his sponsors, like they're minor, go for it. \n\nAs you, you know, recall, he like can't do it. But he had a great line in there where he was talking, I think, to his, his buddy, his Irish construction buddy, explaining why he didn't get it and he said you know, I've never sold a project to a committee and that really resonated because that's how I've always been in my career. It's like you know, if I meet the entrepreneur and I have a conversation and it's a fit, good things happen. But when it's a committee, I don't seem to have much, much luck. \n\nJerry: I'm glad you brought up this. One of my favorite things and that's when I you know it's amazing, it's. I agree with you. Both those books are in my top favorite fictional books ever written. But I think there's a lot of great content, especially for the entrepreneur, of what you have to do. I mean, if you're not a disruptor, if you kind of stay under a ceiling and you're like, hey, I'm not going to change where you work, I don't know what your thoughts are, but I kind of say that if you're an entrepreneur, a successful entrepreneur, normally you're kind of a freak. Right, you're looked at as a freak in the industry and I think that's well put on the committee. I'm not here to appease the committees, I'm here to disrupt the industry on how Main Street and business owners will get funding, not just through how the traditional style is. So that's not our company. So I think the whole Atlas shrugged and Fountainhead there, even though they're fictional books, there's a lot of great content and, I think, some kind of rules of engagement for the entrepreneur. \n\nDavid: Yeah, I was just before this. I had a call with a colleague and he really had very little familiarity with Ann Rahn's work and early heard of it, so he had just bought the audible for Fountainhead. So I'd recommend you start with Fountainhead, so we'll see how that goes. \n\nJerry: That's excellent. \n\nDavid: So talk to me. So what are you guys doing to help those you know privately held, closely held you call them Main Street businesses. You know what's kind of your sweet spot, revenue wise? I get it's probably a broad one, but like for us, like 90% of our clients have revenues between 10 million and 100 million like what's your sort of sweet spot where most of your clients fall in? \n\nJerry: I'd say 250,000 to 450 million a year. \n\nDavid: What if you had to narrow it down a little bit? Go ahead. \n\nJerry: Your sweet spot today, david, is probably somewhere in that. I'm going to say 10 to 25 million is our sweet spot. You get to the 100 and 250 million dollar companies. They do have a lot of cash flow and they've got profits and they've got, you know, banks that give them lines of credit even though they're personally guaranteed. So it's a little harder to get in the door. But we're getting in the door with those now and they're seeing what's going on. But our sweet spot today would be that 10 to 25 million. \n\nDavid: Okay, that is helpful. And the reason I narrowed you down here is because our audience who CPAs and attorneys who have clients, when you say 250,000 to 450 million, it doesn't quite resonate. When you say 10 to 25, now all of a sudden they can think of their clients, or in the 10 to 25 range. So talk to me and you kind of touched on it talk to me about this whole personal guarantee thing and there's probably, I'm guessing, some history behind it. So what's the story? And talk to me about this personal guarantee thing. \n\nJerry: Yeah. So when we say we're disruptors and I just want to make sure that your audience understands you know the 250 to 450. When you look at your EIN that tax number that you get from the IRS that's just like your SSN to building personal credit. Your EIN can build company credit. Your company has its own credit score and its own report and so does your personal social security number. So when you give that broad scope just for your audience, you get someone that's just starting out with a startup or they're cranking out 20,000 a month. \n\nIt just gets hard to try to get funding without why bank revenue statements, tax returns, business plans, revenue looking at your personal credit just to try to get the operating budget to be able to run your company and then to grow and scale and seize opportunities to grow and scale, because we all know as entrepreneurs that when you have an opportunity in front of it, it's not like you can plan and then just hit exactly when it happens. When you need to seize an opportunity, you don't have 60 to 90 days to qualify for it. So we look at what Jay Galt's main premise is and our advantage and really how we impact that entrepreneur in the world is what we do is we focus on the EIN and to build credit on that. It's actually very simple. Has nothing to do with revenue, has nothing to do with what your financials, your tax returns or how long you've been in business. It's just about taking that tax number and making it fundable so you can get access to corporate vending and lending, and your rates are typically 0 to 5%. I mean, we're getting people vehicle and equipment loans at 1.9%. Corporate credit cards are 0% on three to 12 month terms, right, not just on balance transfers. \n\nSo that's the power. That's how your Wal-Mart's and Googles and Amazons and your Apples of the world are able to do what you and I, david, have no problem with paying interest, as long as it's a positive arbitrage. What we can't do is pay 30% to 50% in interest when we're only making 25% to 35% in money. So how you flip the script is you got to get access and get your company fundable so you can get access to banks' monies to leverage that at better rates in terms, so you can grow in scale without going into what Debt risk or paying too much in interest where it's not a profitable proposition. We see that every day and I know you do, david, right. People get in these small little bridge loans and if they don't get them paid off they'll come out or close on your mortgage. \n\nDavid: And then the other aspect of it then is when the underwriting is done on the company's EIN, there's less of a need for personal guarantee right, because they're under the business Right Typically that doesn't even come into play your credit score, your personal inquiries or what your credit score looks like. \n\nJerry: That has nothing to do with building company credit is vanilla. It doesn't matter if you're a man or a woman, you're a Democrat or Republican, what your religion is, because it's a tax number. There's no bias on that number. Where that can come into play on your personal credit, right when you walk into a bank. But it doesn't have that when you're looking at a company's index, because a company is not a man or a woman or a Democrat or Republican or a certain type of it. It's where your Social Security is tied to an individual. Your EIN, that tax number, is tied to the company. \n\nDavid: Okay, Well, that sounds good and is the motivation for your customers trying to get rid of the personal guarantee or trying to get better interest rates on borrowing. \n\nJerry: Most of the time they get tired of the personal guarantee business. Right, you're married, you're watched like you're not putting the house on the line, right, exactly so if you want money, they always have you check a box and do a little initial where, hey, we're going to give you the money because we believe in you and you believe in your business. We just need you to check the box and this is just a what. This is just a normality. But if something would happen we know that's going to happen. If something would happen, you understand the banks right. Since we're giving you money is we'll have access to your 401ks, your kids college funds, your second home, your cars, your current home, your family's living underneath. \n\nThat's just a technicality. So a lot of them want to get out of the personal guarantee business or they don't grow in scale because they don't want to risk tying up their personal assets to leverage to their company's funding. So that's the first thing. But getting corporate capital on your EIN, you're going to get 10, 20, 30, a hundred times the amount of money on your company. Then you're ever going to get on your SSN because you're only going to stretch that personal credit bubble so far, because then they're looking at underwriting risk on you personally. They look at the company's revenue, but the company has nothing to do with it. If you don't have a corporate credit. They're always going to look at your EIN first, but there's usually nothing there, so they always revert what Back to revenue bank statements, underwriting risk, ar balances, invoicing. \n\nSo there's a lot that goes into that. So you can see how complex that gets and how it can. What limit you on getting and seizing opportunities and then, more importantly, getting better rates in terms of run the operation, so you can leverage the bank's money because, david, you and I get this right. I'd rather use the bank's money than my money. I'd rather take my money and put it in vehicles that does what with my money. \n\nDavid: No, that really makes a lot of sense. So what's the disruption you're doing is basically bringing this Wall Street credit access to Main Street businesses. Is that? \n\nJerry: education Right. First thing we do is I was asking an owner. I said, hey, what's your personal credit score? And they always answer right, 720. What's your company's credit score? What do you think I get most of the time? \n\nDavid: Right, no idea what are you talking about. \n\nJerry: Right. So we have a seven step blueprint, but we're all about education. We're not here to sell anything, we're here to serve. So, just like in the whole Atlas Shrug with J Galt, john Galt, right, we're here to serve and connect with people and give them education on things that they don't know. It's not the CPAs or the accounting firms fall. It's not the bankers, it's not the tax attorneys. That's not their job of what they do. What J Galt does is we do the same thing. People understand personal credit. They just don't understand company credit and how easy it is to get there. There's just a secret set of rules. So our job is to educate you on the seven step blueprint of how you can get your company fundable, so you, as the owner, can survive storms. Right, you don't have to worry about the four things that can take the legs out of a business economy. You and I do. We have control over economy, david. Nope, how about inflation? Nope, does that impact us? Sure, sure it does. How about a government regulation? \n\nDavid: No control, almost no control, I mean in theory. If you're part of a lobbying group, you know you might fit very little. And what's the fourth one? \n\nJerry: Yeah, but then you're going to have to have some capital to have some of these lobbyists for it, right, they're not free, sure. And then the second thing is just a you ever. I don't know if you've ever experienced one of these at all, david, but you ever heard of a pandemic? \n\nDavid: I think I have. I think we had one of those like a hundred years ago. I heard about it 1918, I think we had one. Yeah, I think it was, if we had anything close. \n\nJerry: I know you and I have never experienced one of those lately right. \n\nBut, even on that it's a cripple of business. Some it's a lot of businesses actually did a really great job. Sure, a lot that it really affected there's over. You know, 60% of businesses haven't even made it back to pre-pandemic revenues today because they raise the prices, inflation's there. I mean you've got a lot of things going against you. So how do you survive that and how do you get through those things? How do you prepare for the storms and survive the storms? And it's really about if it makes sense for the business on you moving forward and getting to the goals or solving the challenges, but it's really about getting fundability on your company. That's the answer to that question or challenge. It's the most vexing problem with small and medium-sized businesses today is getting cash blow. \n\nDavid: Okay. So I love stories. I think they educate well. Do you have a story or two of, like, a client of yours that you could talk about anonymously and maybe kind of set up what their scenario was before they met you? What's their scenario like now that you can be mined? \n\nJerry: Yes, we have a guy that's in the contracting business out of North Carolina. We'll call him Randy, okay, but he came to us and we actually approached him and we had a conversation. But he's been in business for almost eight years doing well, has access to his local Chevy dealer, his local bank, where he deposits his money, and his credit score wasn't bad. He said, oh, I know how to do this. I have a Dun and Bradstreet number, right, that's the largest credit bureau, like TransUnion is on our consumer side, Dun and Bradstreet is on the business credit side because there's business credit reporting agencies and there's personal credit reporting agencies, right? Well, personal credit reporting agencies nothing to do with your company. It's the business credit reporting agencies to have everything to do with your company. So that's another tip that I'll give your viewers out there and listeners today. Right, Okay, so, but with Randy as we were having the conversation, with Randy as we were having the conversation, David, he understood it, but he really didn't, because where he was going and putting his deposits in, he just thought this the way it was and he actually was doing pretty well. He had a credit line recommendation about 67,000 on his company. We ran his company credit report After four months and just getting his EIN fundable the same Chevy dealer that he's been buying his vehicles for the last eight years. \n\nHe's been getting anywhere between a nine and 15% rate. Wow, After four months, with Jay Galdin focusing on his company EIN that tax number he would walk into the same Chevy dealer and got his lowest vehicle right About a $51,000 van for 1.9% interest rate. Wow, and that's impactful. He looked at me and he goes Jerry, I can buy five of these vans now instead of just one at a time, right, Because that interest rate is so impactful. So it's just about he's still going to pay interest, but 9% or 1 or 2%, which one's better for a company, right? So that's one success story. \n\nAnd that was just after four months of it's all intentional work. It doesn't take a lot, by the way, just so if you're asking. It only takes two to three hours a month to do this. I didn't say a day or a week per month, but it's like going to the gym, David. I mean, you're a healthy guy, right? You can sign up for a membership just because we're paying for a membership to the gym. Do we get six pack abs and do we get a healthy heart just because we pay a membership for a gym? \n\nDavid: Unfortunately not. \n\nJerry: Or is there a thing you just take three pills a day and you can get physically healthy there? \n\nDavid: you go, that's what I'm looking for. Yeah, that's what we're selling today. \n\nJerry: We're living an immediate gratification world, right, we want food today. We got DoorDash. We want same day shipping. We want our stuff today, and that's the world we live in. But to get access to that it does take the hustle and muscle. It doesn't take a lot, but you're going to have to do the work. It's just like taking a walk every day for 30 minutes is so good for our health and our heart and it's hard for us to find time to schedule it. But just like this, you have to put in the work if you're going to get your company f*****g and funded right. So that's one story. \n\nSecond story is we have a real estate investor guy down in Texas and he's been in business for over 20 years. I mean he's a Texan, I mean you know Texas, I mean it's the Republic of Texas, I mean it's his own country. I mean you know what I'm saying there, right? I do, I do. I know you have some clients down there as well. So when I look at Texas, this guy had really a big ego, been doing a great job, very successful. He has over 105 properties, okay. So he's a big deal, okay. I'm not going to mention his revenue because some of my taggamer I was just saying, here he is. \n\nSo he came to us and he couldn't get funded and he thought our program was full of it. Right, he says this is just sounds too good to be true. I don't. I've been doing this. I've got bankers, I've got a fractional CFO, I've got this figured out. I don't see your help. \n\nSo then we got into asking about personal credit and company credit as company's credit score and he thought he had a good company credit score. So we ran the report, went through it. Here's the thing he had some blemishes, but here was the big problem on fundability. He'd been in business for 20 years and moved to a lot of different locations and it filled out a lot of paperwork. We're all busy. When you're an entrepreneur and you've got a hundred and over a hundred properties, I mean you're busy. Sure, you've got a lot of stuff going on. So he would have filled out the Dunn and Bradstreet and he put WM period with the secretary of state. He was listed as William. Well, you and I know that WM, period and William mean the same thing as humans, right, right, your cross references WM period and William. What does it say? A mismatch and it's an automatic decline. He also didn't have his phone number. Listen to this, folks your phone number can't be a cell phone number. It has to be a landline or a VoIP service. Now, the VoIPs can be what. \n\nIt can be transferred to your cell phone number David, let me ask you a question When's the last time you use 411 or your area code in 5551212 to look up a business number 30 years, do you know? If your business landline or void number is not registered with 411 National Directory, it's an automatic decline for corporate funding. \n\nDavid: I did not know that. \n\nJerry: So that's another secret rule. So this is some education that David and I are providing to just things like that Having a website or landing page, having a corporate email address. Your number has to be listed. You have to have a business bank account. There's just a little thing. And why is that, folks? Over 80% of small businesses fail in the first five years because of cashflow. \n\nWell, if you don't look like a real company, you don't have a phone number, you don't have the business bank account, merchant services, you don't have a corporate email it's a PO box. You can't use a PO box. Well, I have a UPS store, david. It's a fancy PO box. It's still a place where you don't live and they can't access you. So a home address can be used, even though I don't recommend it, because now they'll know where your family lives and lives the whole entire world. \n\nBut you can do things and get systems and processes put in place. It's all about fundability. On the company, no different than you are personally, it's just a lot easier to get personal credit because there's over 4 million people using it to finance their lifestyle. However, on businesses, they tell us that we can be protected from lawsuits as a limited liability corporation and we'll get funding. Here's the only problem. We never signed up for the credit bureaus that report our business payments so we can build fundability with the corporate vendors and vendors, right? No one told us that. \n\nSo when you go to deposit your money in the bank, david, what happens? They try to get you money. They look at you and they just said, hey, here's a business credit card, we can get you a line of credit, but we just need you to do what with it personally. Gary, you got to get it fundable and you got to find lenders and vendors that report. \n\nAnd this Texan okay that once we got his name right, got his phone number listed and he had a couple of blemishes that he wasn't aware of we were able to get him all of these commercial real estate loans with no guarantors, not leveraging his other properties. He was able to get corporate millions of dollars in corporate in less than a year, all on his company now, which is a couple of fundability rules and a couple of secrets that he wasn't available on how to turn his company in standing on his own two legs financially just by the fundability rules, the corporate credit bureaus and using vendors to report in the lining up so he can get access to the same things he was doing now, but he was personally guaranteeing everything leveraging his other properties or his name to continue to grow his real estate company. \n\nDavid: Yeah, and I imagine does that also mean that in theory, if he wanted to, if each project if he wanted to have as a separate entity, he could avoid that cross collateralization issue. Yes, because that's the other problem I understand there is that all 105 of those properties are all cross collateralized. So if he has one project that somehow just goes belly up or property that it risks the other 104 properties Correct. \n\nJerry: And if you get it on your company, then it doesn't put that into play, because when you're using personal credit, they're always going to leverage those. Because you are, you're putting those other properties as a the guarantee against the loan for that new property. If it does go belly up or doesn't do as well as you thought, that happens, right. When you're in real estate, I mean, most time you have wins but there are losses. You don't have to put your other properties in jeopardy. Do those things on corporate credit. \n\nIt's no different than if you guys remember Donald Trump, right? He opened up that huge casino, used $3 billion of the bank's money and then after two years it failed. I don't think Donald Trump wants anything to fail. He doesn't invest in things that are going to fail Just didn't work out because of economy, location and where the world was at the time. Well, he was able to walk away from that. Did it affect his personal credit? Nope. Did he have to give up any of his personal assets in that deal? I doubt it. No. Two weeks later, he bought a golf resort in Doral, florida, right, sure? So, without affecting anything with that. \n\nSo that's the power of corporations. No different than I'll tell you another story. Remember Home Depot and Lowe's and LA Fitness? Right, those are all Wall Street corporations, right? Stock L's stock owned, and all of that During the pandemic. They were able to be open. You can only have 50 people in the store right, they were able to do that. But what about the local hardware guy in town? They had to be shut down. The local mom and pop fitness place? They had to be shut down. So there's a difference and that's why we talk about this. Jay Galt, we're here to give the power and advantage back to the main street business owners by building fundability so their corporation has the cash flow, the access because this is all about getting ready access, cash and capital for you to take on those storms, to survive those storms and to grow and scale. \n\nWalmart, sam Walton, would not have been the world's largest retailer if he didn't figure out corporate credit. He would still be in Benton, arkansas if that was the case. So now, obviously, then he went stock, went public as an IPO, so that made it a moral difference for him to get there. But he would have never got to that position if he wasn't able to scale that. Take advantage of the back in the 80s. Remember when he took down Kmart? Right, but it was through cash capital, corporate funding that allowed him to do the advertising and get belly up and take on the big giant. Now he's the big giant. \n\nSo just consider that that just because you're labeled a small business owner doesn't mean you have to be small. What if you wanted to franchise? What if you wanted to grow and scale? What if you wanted to buy your own property and land and build your own manufacturing facility, get bigger into the corporate real estate market, be a truck driver and become a regional or national player? If those are things that you want to do and you just have an access, you're having problems accessing cash flow. The secret is building company credit on the tax number, that EIN number and getting out of the personal guarantee in the personal inquiry game. \n\nDavid: No, it makes sense so well. Thank you for those several stories. That illustrates it. So how does Jay Galt come into the picture? What's your role in helping these companies other than education? I'm sure there's more to it than that. How does your service work? \n\nJerry: We're a SaaS company, which stands for Software as a Service. We have a robust platform that has seven-step blueprint inside of it that walks you step by step. But, more importantly, we have a white glove concierge service, kind of a do-it-for-you. But there's certain things you have to do. We can't use your bank lines of credit, your credit cards, and you don't want me to do that in your business, but we help you fix blemishes where to go to fix them. So we provide a coaching service that goes behind the SaaS platform so you're successful in your journey. So imagine getting a dedicated coach. They're not out of the Philippines or India. That's great for customer service. I think All of our credit analysts and our finance analysts. We have a whole back office advising team that helps our members. So we are a membership. There's a one-time fee that you would pay and when you come into that you get lifetime support from Galt through our SaaS product, the Getting Business Credit. So you have access to all of the corporate lenders and vendors that actually report. And our secret sauce is we won't work with your Put-Em-In Our Business Finance Suite unless they report to the credit bureaus. That'll help you for a robot, mobile and credit and if they don't show us the underwriting guidelines, because it's important to know what boxes must be checked before you apply for a loan, because in the corporate vending and lending world, if you get denied, you have to wait six to 12 months before you can reapply and that can really slow down momentum when you try to grow a business. So you don't have. That's not how consumer credit works, but that's how corporate credit works. So we have that. \n\nWe also help with cash flow management. We really define ourselves as cash flow management experts getting you access and leveraging banks money at better rates and terms, understanding cash flow so you don't get into what expense or debt trouble, and then giving you a business valuation. David, this is the power. 98% of small business owners have never had a business valuation or appraisal done. So they're in the head and heart. They know what their company's worth, but you'll know exactly what it's worth, how to ensure it properly and where to invest your time. You'll get clear, sound facts about your company so you can invest your dollars and your time in the right parts to continue to grow the asset that you're building and properly protecting it, allowing you to do what Plan for an exit strategy and those are typically $10,000 on average. We provide that every year to our members with JGault. \n\nSo we're really here with our three columns of getting corporate financing, access to lenders and vendors that report, understanding your cash flow management as you grow in scale, and then having your business valuation so you know the value, where to invest in it and to plan and know exactly if you want to sell it, when is the time to restructure, when is the time to sell it or if you're passing it down to one of your kids to run. Eventually you want to make it a generational company. Now you'll have corporate credit belt where they can walk into the seat, you can ride off into your retirement years and know that the corporate funding is going to be there for generations to come. So the legacy you can leave behind by building that company we passed on to generations, your kids, the grandkids and so forth and so on. \n\nDavid: No, it sounds great. So what should people do? Is their next step? If they're interested in learning more, Go to the website. What's kind of your first entry point for potential new customers? \n\nJerry: I would highly recommend that you do that. David, I'm fine with you sharing my for your audience. It depends on how big that audience is my personal but I would go to jgaltio. That's J-G-A-L-T. No period, Just jgaltio and then you can check out our services and what we do and if there's more questions, there's a place where you can connect and have a private consultation if this is something you want to talk more about. \n\nDavid: Okay, that sounds great and that's jgaltio. \n\nJerry: Yes. \n\nDavid: Okay, what is we're wrapping up here? Is there anything? I didn't ask you that you wish I had asked you? \n\nJerry: Wow, that's a great question. You did a great job. I mean, obviously I can understand why you have a successful podcast out there, david. Well, you're too nice. Oh, no worries, I mean, you've been doing this a long time. The only thing that I would share with American entrepreneurs out there today is we're really passionate, and just me as an owner, my goal is not to sell something. I have four companies. \n\nThe only reason why Cole and my partner and I started jgalt was to serve and educate. But there's more than education. It's all about impact. So if there's something where you're wanting to grow an asset and you want to get there, we're here to have an intelligent conversation, a consultation, if you will, about where you're at, where you're wanting to go, and about 80% you didn't ask this. So does everybody want jgalt? Of course we're going to think everybody needs jgalt right, it's our company. Same thing with yours, david. I'm sure you feel the same way. If you're exporting products, you will find a better guy right Outside the country. So we're really great at what we do. \n\nBut only about 80% of the companies we talk to every week take advantage of jgalt services, because it's not for everyone. So there are depends on where you're at and what you're trying to accomplish. That's why we're kind of looking at ourselves as the doctors of business credit. It doesn't make sense for everyone. It may not make sense today, or it may not make sense at all If you're just have a side hustle or something in your house that you're just doing is just to make some additional income to pay off debt or something like that. We're truly looking at companies that are looking to grow and scale and really be disruptors, like us, in the product or the services that they're offering across the United States. \n\nDavid: Well, thank you for adding to that. So, as we wrap up, that's Jerry Vaughn with jgaltio Jerry, this has really been fun and I think there's a lot of great value that your company provides for small to medium size privately held companies. So I really appreciate you taking time to come on the show and share some information. \n\nJerry: Yeah, you're very welcome. It was a pleasure to be on it, david, so thank you so much again for having me on my pleasure. ","content_html":"In today's episode of the IC-DISC Show, we chat with Jerry Vaughn, founder and president of J Gault, a company revolutionizing business financing. Jerry explains how J Gault enables Main Street businesses to reap corporate credit opportunities by leveraging their EINs and NOT having to provide a personal guarantee.
\n\nHe shares insightful stories of entrepreneurs who, thanks to J Gault, secured lower interest rates and increased funding despite lacking revenue history or business plans. As Jerry describes, J Gault's approach prepares companies for economic uncertainty while ensuring they emerge stronger.
\n\nWhether you're an entrepreneur looking to scale up or a small business owner pursuing growth, this discussion with Jerry Vaughn illuminates the transformative potential available by accessing business credit innovatively.
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SHOW HIGHLIGHTS
\n\n![](\"https://assets.fireside.fm/file/fireside-images/podcasts/images/d/d61cedee-227d-47c8-8d74-3407972d4afc/guests/a/a91c5056-f067-4dd7-b102-97b6318b1072/avatar_small.jpg?v=1\"){kind=avatar} | \nJerry Vaughn | \n
(AI transcript provided as supporting material and may contain errors)
\n\nI know for many of my clients that's one of their big frustrations is they really don't want to be personally guaranteeing business credit, business debt. Oftentimes it's because their spouse isn't keen on using their house as collateral for a business loan. So it's a great episode. We talk about a variety of different things some stories about customers of theirs. They have a membership program and it's really a great service that I find to be really intriguing. So I hope you enjoy the episode as much as I did. Good morning, jerry. Welcome to the podcast. How are you doing today?
\n\nJerry: I'm doing fantastic, David. I appreciate you having me on today.
\n\nDavid: Well, my pleasure. So where are you calling in from today? What part of the world are you in?
\n\nJerry: A big metropolis of Indianapolis, Indiana.
\n\nDavid: Ah well, one of your suburbs, I think, has the most roundabouts of any city in the country, carmel.
\n\nJerry: Yes, Carmel. Carmel in California and Carmel in Indiana just like the candy you would eat.
\n\nDavid: Sure, have you been through any of those famous Carmel roundabouts?
\n\nJerry: Actually, where I live, carmel Fisher's, nobleville it's the city sister city is a roundabout. Yes, I actually like them. At first I was like what is this? But actually it moves traffic and sufficient as long as the people in front of you know understand.
\n\nDavid: Yeah, I actually heard a podcast with the mayor of Carmel, because something like Carmel accounts for more than 50% of all the roundabouts in the US. It's a crazy number. And he was talking about all the benefits and he said the only drawback. He said there's a few times during the day, like peak traffic times, where it's arguably a little less efficient. But he said the other 23 and a half hours a day it's far more efficient because you never have to wait for a stoplight. And he talked to me have you ever been driving in the middle of the night and you come up to a stoplight and there's no traffic within a mile any direction? But technically you're supposed to wait for the lights to turn.
\n\nJerry: That is correct technically.
\n\nDavid: Technically correct, I find. If it's three o'clock in the morning, I ask myself have I had any drinks this evening? And if I have, then I'm going to wait for the lights to turn. If I hadn't had any drinks that night, then how much trouble can I get into?
\n\nJerry: That is exactly right. I do the same thing. I'm like, well, there's nobody anywhere, you sit there and it feels like it's been 10 minutes, probably been a couple. But I'm like, really, why am I sitting here to stoplight?
\n\nDavid: I know so are you a native of Indiana?
\n\nJerry: I am. I was actually born in Hoopston, illinois, but we grew up in a western city in Indiana, so almost to the border. But I've grown up as a Hoosier most of my life, okay.
\n\nDavid: Nice Bye, folks, and fun Bye. Get into your business. So the name of the company resonated with me immediately because there's a character in one of my all-time favorite books by the name of John Galt and there's a famous phrase from the book called who is John Galt? Now, is this just coincidence, this JGalt, or is there any connection?
\n\nJerry: Well, I'm glad that you brought that up because it doesn't stand for Jerry Galt, I can tell you that. So we couldn't use John Galt because it's obviously patent and has a huge following. But it is off the premise of the book Atlas Shrugged by Anne Rand. So who is John Galt? The whole story of the government takeover, small business and controls and regulations and all of that and that fish, you know book that was written by a Russian immigrant that understood communism, came over. She saw it in the 1940s and she said what is going on? I'm saying the same stuff right here. So she wrote that fictional book in the 50s, as you know. But it's kind of a big deal and it's coming out and there's a big following and people get it. But yeah, you're exactly right, it is John Galt.
\n\nDavid: So it's probably actually not a bad filtering process, because I find that there's three types of people in the world. There's people who've read Atlas Shrugged and think it's one of the greatest artistic works of all time. There's folks who've read it and think she's the devil and it's the worst thing ever written. And then there's folks who've never heard of it. So I find that people tend to follow one of three camps. There's not many people that are like yeah, I think I read it, I think I vaguely remember something about it. So it's probably a good self-selection process, right? Because the people who read it and think it's the most evil book ever written probably aren't the mindset of your ideal customer.
\n\nJerry: I'm guessing it's pretty close right, but it's surprising on how many people know, even myself. As we name the company, you know your particular activation system in your head, just like when we buy a car. Right then, after we buy a car, you start driving around like man. Look at all the people that bought the car I have this is great following my lead.
\n\nNow, they were already there. I see who is John Galt stickers on the back of bumpers and on the back of their windshield. I've just it blows me away. But you're exactly right. Most of the entrepreneurs, because we are working only with main street business owners. Okay, small and medium-sized companies, not the wall street companies. So those are the people we're serving and most of them all of us that own businesses and have done that get the challenges and the works and we're just trying to do the best we can to serve the communities and then build a profitable and a great company with our services or products.
\n\nDavid: Sure no, I like it. So her book, the Fountainhead, I have a slight preference for, like I mean they're my two favorite books, you know fictional books ever written, for sure. But I have a slight preference for the Fountainhead but only because the individualistic aspect. I assume you've read the Fountainhead too yes the individualistic aspect of the Fountainhead just resonates a little more. There's a great line in there where work has to sell an architectural commission to a committee and the committee all wanted to make changes to it and his sponsors, like they're minor, go for it.
\n\nAs you, you know, recall, he like can't do it. But he had a great line in there where he was talking, I think, to his, his buddy, his Irish construction buddy, explaining why he didn't get it and he said you know, I've never sold a project to a committee and that really resonated because that's how I've always been in my career. It's like you know, if I meet the entrepreneur and I have a conversation and it's a fit, good things happen. But when it's a committee, I don't seem to have much, much luck.
\n\nJerry: I'm glad you brought up this. One of my favorite things and that's when I you know it's amazing, it's. I agree with you. Both those books are in my top favorite fictional books ever written. But I think there's a lot of great content, especially for the entrepreneur, of what you have to do. I mean, if you're not a disruptor, if you kind of stay under a ceiling and you're like, hey, I'm not going to change where you work, I don't know what your thoughts are, but I kind of say that if you're an entrepreneur, a successful entrepreneur, normally you're kind of a freak. Right, you're looked at as a freak in the industry and I think that's well put on the committee. I'm not here to appease the committees, I'm here to disrupt the industry on how Main Street and business owners will get funding, not just through how the traditional style is. So that's not our company. So I think the whole Atlas shrugged and Fountainhead there, even though they're fictional books, there's a lot of great content and, I think, some kind of rules of engagement for the entrepreneur.
\n\nDavid: Yeah, I was just before this. I had a call with a colleague and he really had very little familiarity with Ann Rahn's work and early heard of it, so he had just bought the audible for Fountainhead. So I'd recommend you start with Fountainhead, so we'll see how that goes.
\n\nJerry: That's excellent.
\n\nDavid: So talk to me. So what are you guys doing to help those you know privately held, closely held you call them Main Street businesses. You know what's kind of your sweet spot, revenue wise? I get it's probably a broad one, but like for us, like 90% of our clients have revenues between 10 million and 100 million like what's your sort of sweet spot where most of your clients fall in?
\n\nJerry: I'd say 250,000 to 450 million a year.
\n\nDavid: What if you had to narrow it down a little bit? Go ahead.
\n\nJerry: Your sweet spot today, david, is probably somewhere in that. I'm going to say 10 to 25 million is our sweet spot. You get to the 100 and 250 million dollar companies. They do have a lot of cash flow and they've got profits and they've got, you know, banks that give them lines of credit even though they're personally guaranteed. So it's a little harder to get in the door. But we're getting in the door with those now and they're seeing what's going on. But our sweet spot today would be that 10 to 25 million.
\n\nDavid: Okay, that is helpful. And the reason I narrowed you down here is because our audience who CPAs and attorneys who have clients, when you say 250,000 to 450 million, it doesn't quite resonate. When you say 10 to 25, now all of a sudden they can think of their clients, or in the 10 to 25 range. So talk to me and you kind of touched on it talk to me about this whole personal guarantee thing and there's probably, I'm guessing, some history behind it. So what's the story? And talk to me about this personal guarantee thing.
\n\nJerry: Yeah. So when we say we're disruptors and I just want to make sure that your audience understands you know the 250 to 450. When you look at your EIN that tax number that you get from the IRS that's just like your SSN to building personal credit. Your EIN can build company credit. Your company has its own credit score and its own report and so does your personal social security number. So when you give that broad scope just for your audience, you get someone that's just starting out with a startup or they're cranking out 20,000 a month.
\n\nIt just gets hard to try to get funding without why bank revenue statements, tax returns, business plans, revenue looking at your personal credit just to try to get the operating budget to be able to run your company and then to grow and scale and seize opportunities to grow and scale, because we all know as entrepreneurs that when you have an opportunity in front of it, it's not like you can plan and then just hit exactly when it happens. When you need to seize an opportunity, you don't have 60 to 90 days to qualify for it. So we look at what Jay Galt's main premise is and our advantage and really how we impact that entrepreneur in the world is what we do is we focus on the EIN and to build credit on that. It's actually very simple. Has nothing to do with revenue, has nothing to do with what your financials, your tax returns or how long you've been in business. It's just about taking that tax number and making it fundable so you can get access to corporate vending and lending, and your rates are typically 0 to 5%. I mean, we're getting people vehicle and equipment loans at 1.9%. Corporate credit cards are 0% on three to 12 month terms, right, not just on balance transfers.
\n\nSo that's the power. That's how your Wal-Mart's and Googles and Amazons and your Apples of the world are able to do what you and I, david, have no problem with paying interest, as long as it's a positive arbitrage. What we can't do is pay 30% to 50% in interest when we're only making 25% to 35% in money. So how you flip the script is you got to get access and get your company fundable so you can get access to banks' monies to leverage that at better rates in terms, so you can grow in scale without going into what Debt risk or paying too much in interest where it's not a profitable proposition. We see that every day and I know you do, david, right. People get in these small little bridge loans and if they don't get them paid off they'll come out or close on your mortgage.
\n\nDavid: And then the other aspect of it then is when the underwriting is done on the company's EIN, there's less of a need for personal guarantee right, because they're under the business Right Typically that doesn't even come into play your credit score, your personal inquiries or what your credit score looks like.
\n\nJerry: That has nothing to do with building company credit is vanilla. It doesn't matter if you're a man or a woman, you're a Democrat or Republican, what your religion is, because it's a tax number. There's no bias on that number. Where that can come into play on your personal credit, right when you walk into a bank. But it doesn't have that when you're looking at a company's index, because a company is not a man or a woman or a Democrat or Republican or a certain type of it. It's where your Social Security is tied to an individual. Your EIN, that tax number, is tied to the company.
\n\nDavid: Okay, Well, that sounds good and is the motivation for your customers trying to get rid of the personal guarantee or trying to get better interest rates on borrowing.
\n\nJerry: Most of the time they get tired of the personal guarantee business. Right, you're married, you're watched like you're not putting the house on the line, right, exactly so if you want money, they always have you check a box and do a little initial where, hey, we're going to give you the money because we believe in you and you believe in your business. We just need you to check the box and this is just a what. This is just a normality. But if something would happen we know that's going to happen. If something would happen, you understand the banks right. Since we're giving you money is we'll have access to your 401ks, your kids college funds, your second home, your cars, your current home, your family's living underneath.
\n\nThat's just a technicality. So a lot of them want to get out of the personal guarantee business or they don't grow in scale because they don't want to risk tying up their personal assets to leverage to their company's funding. So that's the first thing. But getting corporate capital on your EIN, you're going to get 10, 20, 30, a hundred times the amount of money on your company. Then you're ever going to get on your SSN because you're only going to stretch that personal credit bubble so far, because then they're looking at underwriting risk on you personally. They look at the company's revenue, but the company has nothing to do with it. If you don't have a corporate credit. They're always going to look at your EIN first, but there's usually nothing there, so they always revert what Back to revenue bank statements, underwriting risk, ar balances, invoicing.
\n\nSo there's a lot that goes into that. So you can see how complex that gets and how it can. What limit you on getting and seizing opportunities and then, more importantly, getting better rates in terms of run the operation, so you can leverage the bank's money because, david, you and I get this right. I'd rather use the bank's money than my money. I'd rather take my money and put it in vehicles that does what with my money.
\n\nDavid: No, that really makes a lot of sense. So what's the disruption you're doing is basically bringing this Wall Street credit access to Main Street businesses. Is that?
\n\nJerry: education Right. First thing we do is I was asking an owner. I said, hey, what's your personal credit score? And they always answer right, 720. What's your company's credit score? What do you think I get most of the time?
\n\nDavid: Right, no idea what are you talking about.
\n\nJerry: Right. So we have a seven step blueprint, but we're all about education. We're not here to sell anything, we're here to serve. So, just like in the whole Atlas Shrug with J Galt, john Galt, right, we're here to serve and connect with people and give them education on things that they don't know. It's not the CPAs or the accounting firms fall. It's not the bankers, it's not the tax attorneys. That's not their job of what they do. What J Galt does is we do the same thing. People understand personal credit. They just don't understand company credit and how easy it is to get there. There's just a secret set of rules. So our job is to educate you on the seven step blueprint of how you can get your company fundable, so you, as the owner, can survive storms. Right, you don't have to worry about the four things that can take the legs out of a business economy. You and I do. We have control over economy, david. Nope, how about inflation? Nope, does that impact us? Sure, sure it does. How about a government regulation?
\n\nDavid: No control, almost no control, I mean in theory. If you're part of a lobbying group, you know you might fit very little. And what's the fourth one?
\n\nJerry: Yeah, but then you're going to have to have some capital to have some of these lobbyists for it, right, they're not free, sure. And then the second thing is just a you ever. I don't know if you've ever experienced one of these at all, david, but you ever heard of a pandemic?
\n\nDavid: I think I have. I think we had one of those like a hundred years ago. I heard about it 1918, I think we had one. Yeah, I think it was, if we had anything close.
\n\nJerry: I know you and I have never experienced one of those lately right.
\n\nBut, even on that it's a cripple of business. Some it's a lot of businesses actually did a really great job. Sure, a lot that it really affected there's over. You know, 60% of businesses haven't even made it back to pre-pandemic revenues today because they raise the prices, inflation's there. I mean you've got a lot of things going against you. So how do you survive that and how do you get through those things? How do you prepare for the storms and survive the storms? And it's really about if it makes sense for the business on you moving forward and getting to the goals or solving the challenges, but it's really about getting fundability on your company. That's the answer to that question or challenge. It's the most vexing problem with small and medium-sized businesses today is getting cash blow.
\n\nDavid: Okay. So I love stories. I think they educate well. Do you have a story or two of, like, a client of yours that you could talk about anonymously and maybe kind of set up what their scenario was before they met you? What's their scenario like now that you can be mined?
\n\nJerry: Yes, we have a guy that's in the contracting business out of North Carolina. We'll call him Randy, okay, but he came to us and we actually approached him and we had a conversation. But he's been in business for almost eight years doing well, has access to his local Chevy dealer, his local bank, where he deposits his money, and his credit score wasn't bad. He said, oh, I know how to do this. I have a Dun and Bradstreet number, right, that's the largest credit bureau, like TransUnion is on our consumer side, Dun and Bradstreet is on the business credit side because there's business credit reporting agencies and there's personal credit reporting agencies, right? Well, personal credit reporting agencies nothing to do with your company. It's the business credit reporting agencies to have everything to do with your company. So that's another tip that I'll give your viewers out there and listeners today. Right, Okay, so, but with Randy as we were having the conversation, with Randy as we were having the conversation, David, he understood it, but he really didn't, because where he was going and putting his deposits in, he just thought this the way it was and he actually was doing pretty well. He had a credit line recommendation about 67,000 on his company. We ran his company credit report After four months and just getting his EIN fundable the same Chevy dealer that he's been buying his vehicles for the last eight years.
\n\nHe's been getting anywhere between a nine and 15% rate. Wow, After four months, with Jay Galdin focusing on his company EIN that tax number he would walk into the same Chevy dealer and got his lowest vehicle right About a $51,000 van for 1.9% interest rate. Wow, and that's impactful. He looked at me and he goes Jerry, I can buy five of these vans now instead of just one at a time, right, Because that interest rate is so impactful. So it's just about he's still going to pay interest, but 9% or 1 or 2%, which one's better for a company, right? So that's one success story.
\n\nAnd that was just after four months of it's all intentional work. It doesn't take a lot, by the way, just so if you're asking. It only takes two to three hours a month to do this. I didn't say a day or a week per month, but it's like going to the gym, David. I mean, you're a healthy guy, right? You can sign up for a membership just because we're paying for a membership to the gym. Do we get six pack abs and do we get a healthy heart just because we pay a membership for a gym?
\n\nDavid: Unfortunately not.
\n\nJerry: Or is there a thing you just take three pills a day and you can get physically healthy there?
\n\nDavid: you go, that's what I'm looking for. Yeah, that's what we're selling today.
\n\nJerry: We're living an immediate gratification world, right, we want food today. We got DoorDash. We want same day shipping. We want our stuff today, and that's the world we live in. But to get access to that it does take the hustle and muscle. It doesn't take a lot, but you're going to have to do the work. It's just like taking a walk every day for 30 minutes is so good for our health and our heart and it's hard for us to find time to schedule it. But just like this, you have to put in the work if you're going to get your company f*****g and funded right. So that's one story.
\n\nSecond story is we have a real estate investor guy down in Texas and he's been in business for over 20 years. I mean he's a Texan, I mean you know Texas, I mean it's the Republic of Texas, I mean it's his own country. I mean you know what I'm saying there, right? I do, I do. I know you have some clients down there as well. So when I look at Texas, this guy had really a big ego, been doing a great job, very successful. He has over 105 properties, okay. So he's a big deal, okay. I'm not going to mention his revenue because some of my taggamer I was just saying, here he is.
\n\nSo he came to us and he couldn't get funded and he thought our program was full of it. Right, he says this is just sounds too good to be true. I don't. I've been doing this. I've got bankers, I've got a fractional CFO, I've got this figured out. I don't see your help.
\n\nSo then we got into asking about personal credit and company credit as company's credit score and he thought he had a good company credit score. So we ran the report, went through it. Here's the thing he had some blemishes, but here was the big problem on fundability. He'd been in business for 20 years and moved to a lot of different locations and it filled out a lot of paperwork. We're all busy. When you're an entrepreneur and you've got a hundred and over a hundred properties, I mean you're busy. Sure, you've got a lot of stuff going on. So he would have filled out the Dunn and Bradstreet and he put WM period with the secretary of state. He was listed as William. Well, you and I know that WM, period and William mean the same thing as humans, right, right, your cross references WM period and William. What does it say? A mismatch and it's an automatic decline. He also didn't have his phone number. Listen to this, folks your phone number can't be a cell phone number. It has to be a landline or a VoIP service. Now, the VoIPs can be what.
\n\nIt can be transferred to your cell phone number David, let me ask you a question When's the last time you use 411 or your area code in 5551212 to look up a business number 30 years, do you know? If your business landline or void number is not registered with 411 National Directory, it's an automatic decline for corporate funding.
\n\nDavid: I did not know that.
\n\nJerry: So that's another secret rule. So this is some education that David and I are providing to just things like that Having a website or landing page, having a corporate email address. Your number has to be listed. You have to have a business bank account. There's just a little thing. And why is that, folks? Over 80% of small businesses fail in the first five years because of cashflow.
\n\nWell, if you don't look like a real company, you don't have a phone number, you don't have the business bank account, merchant services, you don't have a corporate email it's a PO box. You can't use a PO box. Well, I have a UPS store, david. It's a fancy PO box. It's still a place where you don't live and they can't access you. So a home address can be used, even though I don't recommend it, because now they'll know where your family lives and lives the whole entire world.
\n\nBut you can do things and get systems and processes put in place. It's all about fundability. On the company, no different than you are personally, it's just a lot easier to get personal credit because there's over 4 million people using it to finance their lifestyle. However, on businesses, they tell us that we can be protected from lawsuits as a limited liability corporation and we'll get funding. Here's the only problem. We never signed up for the credit bureaus that report our business payments so we can build fundability with the corporate vendors and vendors, right? No one told us that.
\n\nSo when you go to deposit your money in the bank, david, what happens? They try to get you money. They look at you and they just said, hey, here's a business credit card, we can get you a line of credit, but we just need you to do what with it personally. Gary, you got to get it fundable and you got to find lenders and vendors that report.
\n\nAnd this Texan okay that once we got his name right, got his phone number listed and he had a couple of blemishes that he wasn't aware of we were able to get him all of these commercial real estate loans with no guarantors, not leveraging his other properties. He was able to get corporate millions of dollars in corporate in less than a year, all on his company now, which is a couple of fundability rules and a couple of secrets that he wasn't available on how to turn his company in standing on his own two legs financially just by the fundability rules, the corporate credit bureaus and using vendors to report in the lining up so he can get access to the same things he was doing now, but he was personally guaranteeing everything leveraging his other properties or his name to continue to grow his real estate company.
\n\nDavid: Yeah, and I imagine does that also mean that in theory, if he wanted to, if each project if he wanted to have as a separate entity, he could avoid that cross collateralization issue. Yes, because that's the other problem I understand there is that all 105 of those properties are all cross collateralized. So if he has one project that somehow just goes belly up or property that it risks the other 104 properties Correct.
\n\nJerry: And if you get it on your company, then it doesn't put that into play, because when you're using personal credit, they're always going to leverage those. Because you are, you're putting those other properties as a the guarantee against the loan for that new property. If it does go belly up or doesn't do as well as you thought, that happens, right. When you're in real estate, I mean, most time you have wins but there are losses. You don't have to put your other properties in jeopardy. Do those things on corporate credit.
\n\nIt's no different than if you guys remember Donald Trump, right? He opened up that huge casino, used $3 billion of the bank's money and then after two years it failed. I don't think Donald Trump wants anything to fail. He doesn't invest in things that are going to fail Just didn't work out because of economy, location and where the world was at the time. Well, he was able to walk away from that. Did it affect his personal credit? Nope. Did he have to give up any of his personal assets in that deal? I doubt it. No. Two weeks later, he bought a golf resort in Doral, florida, right, sure? So, without affecting anything with that.
\n\nSo that's the power of corporations. No different than I'll tell you another story. Remember Home Depot and Lowe's and LA Fitness? Right, those are all Wall Street corporations, right? Stock L's stock owned, and all of that During the pandemic. They were able to be open. You can only have 50 people in the store right, they were able to do that. But what about the local hardware guy in town? They had to be shut down. The local mom and pop fitness place? They had to be shut down. So there's a difference and that's why we talk about this. Jay Galt, we're here to give the power and advantage back to the main street business owners by building fundability so their corporation has the cash flow, the access because this is all about getting ready access, cash and capital for you to take on those storms, to survive those storms and to grow and scale.
\n\nWalmart, sam Walton, would not have been the world's largest retailer if he didn't figure out corporate credit. He would still be in Benton, arkansas if that was the case. So now, obviously, then he went stock, went public as an IPO, so that made it a moral difference for him to get there. But he would have never got to that position if he wasn't able to scale that. Take advantage of the back in the 80s. Remember when he took down Kmart? Right, but it was through cash capital, corporate funding that allowed him to do the advertising and get belly up and take on the big giant. Now he's the big giant.
\n\nSo just consider that that just because you're labeled a small business owner doesn't mean you have to be small. What if you wanted to franchise? What if you wanted to grow and scale? What if you wanted to buy your own property and land and build your own manufacturing facility, get bigger into the corporate real estate market, be a truck driver and become a regional or national player? If those are things that you want to do and you just have an access, you're having problems accessing cash flow. The secret is building company credit on the tax number, that EIN number and getting out of the personal guarantee in the personal inquiry game.
\n\nDavid: No, it makes sense so well. Thank you for those several stories. That illustrates it. So how does Jay Galt come into the picture? What's your role in helping these companies other than education? I'm sure there's more to it than that. How does your service work?
\n\nJerry: We're a SaaS company, which stands for Software as a Service. We have a robust platform that has seven-step blueprint inside of it that walks you step by step. But, more importantly, we have a white glove concierge service, kind of a do-it-for-you. But there's certain things you have to do. We can't use your bank lines of credit, your credit cards, and you don't want me to do that in your business, but we help you fix blemishes where to go to fix them. So we provide a coaching service that goes behind the SaaS platform so you're successful in your journey. So imagine getting a dedicated coach. They're not out of the Philippines or India. That's great for customer service. I think All of our credit analysts and our finance analysts. We have a whole back office advising team that helps our members. So we are a membership. There's a one-time fee that you would pay and when you come into that you get lifetime support from Galt through our SaaS product, the Getting Business Credit. So you have access to all of the corporate lenders and vendors that actually report. And our secret sauce is we won't work with your Put-Em-In Our Business Finance Suite unless they report to the credit bureaus. That'll help you for a robot, mobile and credit and if they don't show us the underwriting guidelines, because it's important to know what boxes must be checked before you apply for a loan, because in the corporate vending and lending world, if you get denied, you have to wait six to 12 months before you can reapply and that can really slow down momentum when you try to grow a business. So you don't have. That's not how consumer credit works, but that's how corporate credit works. So we have that.
\n\nWe also help with cash flow management. We really define ourselves as cash flow management experts getting you access and leveraging banks money at better rates and terms, understanding cash flow so you don't get into what expense or debt trouble, and then giving you a business valuation. David, this is the power. 98% of small business owners have never had a business valuation or appraisal done. So they're in the head and heart. They know what their company's worth, but you'll know exactly what it's worth, how to ensure it properly and where to invest your time. You'll get clear, sound facts about your company so you can invest your dollars and your time in the right parts to continue to grow the asset that you're building and properly protecting it, allowing you to do what Plan for an exit strategy and those are typically $10,000 on average. We provide that every year to our members with JGault.
\n\nSo we're really here with our three columns of getting corporate financing, access to lenders and vendors that report, understanding your cash flow management as you grow in scale, and then having your business valuation so you know the value, where to invest in it and to plan and know exactly if you want to sell it, when is the time to restructure, when is the time to sell it or if you're passing it down to one of your kids to run. Eventually you want to make it a generational company. Now you'll have corporate credit belt where they can walk into the seat, you can ride off into your retirement years and know that the corporate funding is going to be there for generations to come. So the legacy you can leave behind by building that company we passed on to generations, your kids, the grandkids and so forth and so on.
\n\nDavid: No, it sounds great. So what should people do? Is their next step? If they're interested in learning more, Go to the website. What's kind of your first entry point for potential new customers?
\n\nJerry: I would highly recommend that you do that. David, I'm fine with you sharing my for your audience. It depends on how big that audience is my personal but I would go to jgaltio. That's J-G-A-L-T. No period, Just jgaltio and then you can check out our services and what we do and if there's more questions, there's a place where you can connect and have a private consultation if this is something you want to talk more about.
\n\nDavid: Okay, that sounds great and that's jgaltio.
\n\nJerry: Yes.
\n\nDavid: Okay, what is we're wrapping up here? Is there anything? I didn't ask you that you wish I had asked you?
\n\nJerry: Wow, that's a great question. You did a great job. I mean, obviously I can understand why you have a successful podcast out there, david. Well, you're too nice. Oh, no worries, I mean, you've been doing this a long time. The only thing that I would share with American entrepreneurs out there today is we're really passionate, and just me as an owner, my goal is not to sell something. I have four companies.
\n\nThe only reason why Cole and my partner and I started jgalt was to serve and educate. But there's more than education. It's all about impact. So if there's something where you're wanting to grow an asset and you want to get there, we're here to have an intelligent conversation, a consultation, if you will, about where you're at, where you're wanting to go, and about 80% you didn't ask this. So does everybody want jgalt? Of course we're going to think everybody needs jgalt right, it's our company. Same thing with yours, david. I'm sure you feel the same way. If you're exporting products, you will find a better guy right Outside the country. So we're really great at what we do.
\n\nBut only about 80% of the companies we talk to every week take advantage of jgalt services, because it's not for everyone. So there are depends on where you're at and what you're trying to accomplish. That's why we're kind of looking at ourselves as the doctors of business credit. It doesn't make sense for everyone. It may not make sense today, or it may not make sense at all If you're just have a side hustle or something in your house that you're just doing is just to make some additional income to pay off debt or something like that. We're truly looking at companies that are looking to grow and scale and really be disruptors, like us, in the product or the services that they're offering across the United States.
\n\nDavid: Well, thank you for adding to that. So, as we wrap up, that's Jerry Vaughn with jgaltio Jerry, this has really been fun and I think there's a lot of great value that your company provides for small to medium size privately held companies. So I really appreciate you taking time to come on the show and share some information.
\n\nJerry: Yeah, you're very welcome. It was a pleasure to be on it, david, so thank you so much again for having me on my pleasure.
","summary":"In today's episode of the IC-DISC Show, we chat with Jerry Vaughn, founder and president of J Gault, a company revolutionizing business financing. Jerry explains how J Gault enables Main Street businesses to reap corporate credit opportunities by leveraging their EINs and NOT having to provide a personal guarantee.\r\n\r\nHe shares insightful stories of entrepreneurs who, thanks to J Gault, secured lower interest rates and increased funding despite lacking revenue history or business plans. As Jerry describes, J Gault's approach prepares companies for economic uncertainty while ensuring they emerge stronger.\r\n\r\nWhether you're an entrepreneur looking to scale up or a small business owner pursuing growth, this discussion with Jerry Vaughn illuminates the transformative potential available by accessing business credit innovatively.","date_published":"2023-10-26T13:00:00.000-05:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/d61cedee-227d-47c8-8d74-3407972d4afc/76074da4-5e3d-42e4-8012-eafb290a423b.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":27142316,"duration_in_seconds":2253}]},{"id":"4e7ff8d5-c47b-4dd9-a3bf-403e7b56e391","title":"Ep047: Unlocking the Secrets of Financial Growth with Kirk McLaren","url":"https://www.ic-discshow.com/047","content_text":"\n\n\n\n\n\nIn today's illuminating episode, listen in as I chat with Kirk McLaren, founder of Foresight CFO, about thriving in finance and business. \n\nKirk lifts the veil on the strategic growth CFO role beyond tasks. Discover pivotal client habits and Kirk's innovative fractional model. An intriguing question prompts Kirk's life-shaping reflections.\n\nDive into Kirk's book exploring transformational practices. Thought-provoking topics include Tesla's budgeting, lean innovator Joe Justice, and the power of tales. I also share leadership lessons from my CEO collaborations. \n\nFinally, uncover a CFO's higher mission. Kirk illuminates the Growth CFO Certification, empowering professionals as strategic partners. If you seek financial stewardship strategies or a richer purpose, this episode presents a treasury of wisdom for cultivating sustainable growth in your organization and career.\n\n \n\nSHOW HIGHLIGHTS\n\n\nThis episode features Kirk McLaren, the founder of Foresight CFO, and we discuss his unique role as a growth CFO and the innovative tactics he uses to provide fractional CFO services.\nMcLaren shares his three key habits for growth, which are crucial for any manager to adapt for successful financial management.\nWe dive into McLaren's book 'The Growth CFO Void', which offers practical habits that can transform a manager's life and has been published in collaboration with Forbes.\nMcLaren and I discuss the intriguing idea of Tesla's non-existent budgeting process and its influence from lean manufacturing guru Joe Justice.\nWe also explores the importance of employees taking ownership of their numbers and the critical role of daily dashboard tools for effective financial management.\nMcLaren highlights the importance of CFOs becoming true allies of the CEO, stepping beyond tasks, and helping in decision-making processes.\nWe talk about the CR Growth CFO Certification, an initiative that empowers financial professionals to enhance their role as a CFO.\nWe explore the importance of meaningful connections in the financial growth and management sphere.\nHe touches upon how Foresight CFO uses a three-person team approach to provide fractional CFO services, and the importance of having a learning mindset for successful financial management.\nWe conclude with a discussion on the bigger purpose of a CFO in a company and how their role is not just limited to financial operations, but also involves strategic decision-making and navigating the company towards growth.\n\n\n\n\nLINKSShow Notes\nBe a Guest\nAbout IC-DISC Alliance\nAbout Foresight CFO\n\n\nGUEST\n\n\n\nKirk McLarenAbout Kirk\n\n\n\n\n\nTRANSCRIPT\n\n(AI transcript provided as supporting material and may contain errors)\n\n\nDavid Spray\nHi, my name is David Spray and welcome to another episode of the IC-DISC show. My guest today is Kirk McLaren, the founder of Foresight CFO. Foresight CFO describes themselves as a growth CFO, and we learn more about what Kirk means by this. During the interview, we also learn about the three habits that all of his clients utilize to help grow their companies. We also learn about Kirk's unique three-person team approach to providing fractional CFO services. \n\nAnd then Kirk also gave me an answer to a standard question. I ask of what do you wish you knew when you were 25 years old? And his answer is different than anyone else's I've heard. So Kirk brings a novel approach to outsource CFO and I really learned a lot about what's possible with a fractional CFO. So I hope you enjoyed this episode as much as I did. Kirk. Welcome to the podcast. \n\nKirk McLaren\nYeah, David, I'm so glad that you invited me here to talk to your guests and kind of explore backgrounds, that kind of stuff. \n\nDavid Spray\nWell, awesome, well, thank you for being on. So first off, I'd like to thank you for your service to our country. So, thank you for that. \n\nKirk McLaren\nYeah, that was a long time ago, back in 1991, and I was a long way from the bullets but literally left school, joined the army, became a behavioral scientist and that's how I ended up going from Houston, texas, you know, growing up as a young man there, and then dropped out of school, and that's how I ended up going from Houston to Washington DC and stayed here ever since. \n\nDavid Spray\nThat's awesome, so let's get right into it. Talk to me about your company. Yeah, oversight. Cfo. \n\nKirk McLaren\nYeah. So the company started I mean roughly 30 years building mostly private business. I did some nonprofits and some quasi government stuff with the telecom industry and then, 30 years into, I started to notice that business owners oftentimes I'm the finest guy, I can see a clear opportunity, but the business owners were hesitate, they'd hesitate on making decisions and sometimes the fall through wasn't strong. And so I came to learn that a lot of business owners, their business becomes the monster of their own making. Right, they got all these hats on, they go on vacation. They're actually working remotely versus enjoying other things in their life like their family. And meanwhile, most CFOs including me, you know we occupied ourselves with financial management, the accounting operations, maybe treasury. If it's a bigger business, there could be like import, export taxes, kind of the things where your expertise come into play. We focus on those kind of things instead of alleviating the CEO's pain. So around 2015, I mean I kept getting hit in the head with things in life where, hey, maybe there's a better way, right, yeah, yeah, maybe, right, you know, things keep coming in and maybe I should pay attention to something here. \n\nAnd so in 2015, it started to reimagine that the CFO's role as a true navigator with the CEO, and by this I mean you know, learning. You know, as a CFO, a navigator side by side with the CEO, learning how to help the CEO escape the owner's trap. Like you know, they were born. There's something that the CEO is really good at but they're oftentimes not doing. They're not focused on that area. So how do we help them focus on that area? \n\nAnd how does, as a CFO, how do I collaborate with subject matter experts across the company, like like the CMOs and the salespeople and delivery people to help them obliterate the obstacles to growth? Right? So it's a broader partner than just the financial operation. And then you know, at the same time, while doing that, it's definitely those financial habits or profitability that allow us to see okay, where are we coming from, where are we going to? That was really the birth of the foresight CFO. It just kept seeing that business owner or private companies they get hung up, they're trapped, you know, by their business and so maybe there's a better way. \n\nDavid Spray\nThat's where it all started, and so the foresight and the name means, I guess, looking forward instead of backwards no-transcript. \n\nKirk McLaren\nYeah, yeah, like, where do you want to? You got a business, you got into your business for a reason. What is your destination? Where do you want to end up? And a lot of times for me, I'm a big freedom guy. I mean, I want you know. I want freedom of time, freedom of money. I want freedom of purpose to do what I really care about, versus being tethered to some obligation that's not worthwhile. So that's the force. \n\nDavid Spray\nDon't forget the fourth. Don't forget the fourth freedom, freedom of relationship. \n\nKirk McLaren\nYeah, that's a big one right. So, dave, what does that mean to you? \n\nDavid Spray\nfreedom of relationship, what it means associating, you know, serving who I want to serve, work with who I want to serve. So the reason I knew the fourth freedom was because I've spent many years in strategic coach, which is probably where you learn the four freedoms as well, I'm guessing, or from Dan Sullivan. \n\nKirk McLaren\nYeah, dan Sullivan, strategic goals are brilliant and so, but that's a key point when you can actually choose who you work with, you're both inside and outside. You know that's liberation, it is. \n\nDavid Spray\nIt is, and so I know your tagline is that you're a growth CFO, and so I can appreciate that the looking forward has kind of one component. But then the growth CFO piece, you know, that strikes me as more unique, because that almost sounds like a blending of you know, being the chief revenue officer, if you will. So talk to me about how you are able to leverage that CFO role into you know, revenue growth. \n\nKirk McLaren\nYeah, and that's one of the five obstacles. It used to be the number one obstacle is how to help clients when new clients and closely behind that was the number two obstacle, which is keeping and growing existing clients. Now the number one obstacle is people. So we might want to talk about that in a moment. But, to answer your question, the growth CFOs are definitely CFOs. Right, we're not trying to become master, you know, with jack of all trades, master to none, but it's more if you have, doesn't matter about whatever the title. It is the chief sales people, the chief marketing officer, whatever title they have. In our world. The growth CFO works hand in hand and we have certain strengths. That doesn't numbers people, finance people, you know, are we minding the data? Like, oftentimes you have companies that are doing well and they think of all their customers as the same, like, hey, we need more, we have 14,000 customers. These are real examples, by the way. We have 14,000 customers. We need more of those. Really, you need more of those Because if you run the data, if you mind that data, using the skills that you know the CPAs and the finance people brings to the table, you actually find out. \n\nYou know the 80 20 rule plays out, where roughly 20% of your clients are producing 80% of that. You know the financial outcomes and those people love you. They love you, love work with them. You can do your best work with them. It's good synergies, you ring value. They want you to be paid well, it's great, right, all the way around. And likewise vice versa. The bottom 20% you're losing money. They don't like you, right? You don't get along. People don't want to go to work on that site. So when you mind the data kind of kind of coming in, you know how growth stuff will work with the CMO or the sales team. Hey, let's look at who can actually do our best work with using that data. Let's figure out who are these people. What is the voice of the client? Why do those people sign up with us? Why do they keep going with us and then align everything to that, like bundling services. Maybe there's cross sell ups, so maybe you can do even better work with them. \n\nPricing strategy you know a lot of times, you know, you know CEOs are private businesses. They're very risk adverse when it comes to pricing. But can we value price If you're making this kind of outcome for those best clients? Can you share that, that doing well by doing good and then aligning everything, aligning the the, you know lead generation, marketing, aligning the sales process to that best top 20%. And then maybe, once you get confident there you know this is not overnight do things step by step, crawl, walk, run, so that you're not betting the farm on any one decision, but you're making decisions with clarity, you're making phone calls with the clarity of the habits right, the financial habits, and then maybe the bottom 20%. That's you eating up everything you got. Maybe refer them to your competition, right, maybe you work with who you want to work with, that freedom of relationship. So that's kind of a picture. \n\nAn actual example would be a client that had had software as a service, kind of online platform 14,000 customers. Exact scenario you can't. I want more customers, do you? Really? Because we do the data and these people buy from you and keep coming back. These other people, man your calls, customer service, call centers loaded up with people who you will, customers, clients that you will never make happy. Yeah, how about right? \n\nDavid Spray\nSo yeah, in fact, I believe the official name of that 80 20 rule is called the Pareto principle, named after an Italian economist from a long time ago. But you know, the most interesting part of the Pareto principle is when you take it to a second level. So if you look at, you know 20% of your customers are accounting for 80% of your revenue. Well, if you take the 20% of your 20% and the 80% of the 80%, you'll find that 4% of your customers are accounting for 64% of the revenues yeah right. \n\nWhich is even more powerful. It's interesting, the book. There's a guy that wrote a book called the 80 20 principle and I cannot remember his name. I can picture the book and he had an exercise where you would take your clients and rank them in descending order by like revenue or profit, and then you'd have a cumulative column, right, so your first customer counts, you're for 5%, your next one accounts for 4%, so that's 9%. And he had this exercise. You'd go through there and you would just see how many customers down you'd have to go to. You got to, like you know, a significant amount of your revenue. And it was really interesting looking at centers of influence and, like I discovered when I did that, like 80% of my referrals came from five centers of influence. Is that right? \n\nAnd I realized I didn't even need to go into any more networking events. All I had to do is spend more time with those five people and you know these were the five people who I met with once a year. \n\nSo you're like wonder what happens if I met with them quarterly, just those five people. So anyway, so I'm always fascinated by that, the 80 20. And the other funny thing about that, I'm sure you know this it doesn't have to be 80 20, it doesn't have to add up to 100. It can be an 80 10 or a 70 20, or it's really just pointing out that there's these disproportionate outcome from you know, limited inputs, but anyway. So yeah, I always love talking to somebody about Pareto principle, but let's go deeper there. \n\nKirk McLaren\nI mean, look what it just did for you. Wow, five relationships produce most of my outcomes. \n\nSo now if I wanted to, I could definitely put more attention to those folks right, because that's your bread and butter, makes total sense. Probably more will come from that. If you more attention, more outcomes, that kind of stuff. So in addition you essentially could work half as much. Don't do the things that are complete ways. Focus on those five and actually produce more. So now you got freedom of time. You got that freedom of relationship. You work with people, you really get to know each other. \n\nDavid Spray\nThat's the irony, those five people were also some of my favorite five centers of influence too. \n\nKirk McLaren\nYeah, Beyond trust you really get to know each other. Your interest for each other becomes very sincere. They help each other to do well kind of stuff. But that's brilliant Liberation. \n\nDavid Spray\nYes, yeah, I know those dance solvents for freedoms are really powerful, because that's what. That's why we become entrepreneurs is for freedom, anyway, yeah. \n\nKirk McLaren\nIt's funny because Matt contacted me from strategic coach and I'm pretty sure I'm coming in. I've been reading his books like who, not how, that kind of stuff, and so it's funny that he's been a big influence, that community, big influence for you. \n\nDavid Spray\nYeah, I've been. I'm currently on sabbatical from strategic coach and, but I've been, I did a sabbatical before, but I guess I've got about 10 years total and just a wonderful. In fact, anytime I talk to somebody about strategic coach, I start thinking that my sabbatical should perhaps be over. \n\nKirk McLaren\nYeah, back years ago in previous life I worked for Richard Rossi, who's been a strategic coach. I remember when I was his finance guy questioning him on the investment time and money kind of stuff and it's not a big investment in money, but finance guy or someone questioning things. It may have learned a lot since then, yeah, but how important peer group and coaching is I mean night and day versus working in isolation for CEOs. \n\nDavid Spray\nFor sure. Yeah, I would strongly recommend strategic coach, because it gives you a chance to think about your thinking. That's one of Dan's lines, so let's switch gears. So you and I have something in common We've both authored a book. Yours was a best seller, mine was not. So talk to me about the book. What's the name of it? When was it published? What prompted you to publish it? \n\nKirk McLaren\nSo the book title is called the Growth CFO Void. So that missing team member, right that basically the missing navigator to the CEO who's a pilot at the plane, and there were a number of things that kind of prompted. Like what I teach at Georgetown School Continues Studies, kind of a fun thing. I'm big on developing people A lot of times go beyond their self-imposed limits, so I love teaching and the geez man, the textbooks and resources for what business owners and business people really need, like what are practical financial habits? There's really the three practical habits that can change any manager's life Right, just clarity and confidence on where we're at and engineering that path going forward. \n\nAnd the material on that was my book is not a textbook. There are more stories, that kind of stuff. I think that's how people learn and the material on that is like man, it's just overly loaded with jargon. Not everybody is designed to be a CPA. Most people are not designed to be a CPA and most people if you pull up a spreadsheet you literally put them into the checkout zone and so that kind of prompted I need something better. And then also telling our story, since we reimagine what a CFO is. There's plenty of CEO business owners who they know what a traditional CFO is. So this whole new role not redefining the existing role, I should say better, it's just a new concept. I needed a way of telling stories and case studies where they can start to see themselves oh that's what a better way might do. And that prompted it. And so, you know, teamed up with Forbes and they accepted my idea for the book and we published last September last year. Oh, that's great. \n\nDavid Spray\nSo what are the three habits that you mentioned? \n\nKirk McLaren\nYeah, the first one is, across the company managers use the monthly financials like a scoreboard, okay, and a lot of times that's very awkward for them, initially because it looks like hieroglyphics. The second one is getting your hands around cash, so positive cash for both, like 12 week cash forecast, but also how about measuring the cash conversion cycle and see it and then comparing that to benchmarks, because maybe there's something there. And then the third one is we call it engineering profitability with a rolling 12 month budget, okay, and we call it actually a flight plan 12 month flight plan and it then also the multi-year flight plan, like how do we get if you want to end up at a certain place or destination? This has some visibility on how we're going to do that year to year. But the detail work is that third habit the 12 month rolling budget. \n\nDavid Spray\nOkay, that's you know. I learned something interesting about Tesla. You know, supposedly they don't use any budgets. \n\nKirk McLaren\nReally yeah. \n\nDavid Spray\nWhat do they do they? They're all, apparently. As I understand it, they're all about innovation. Speed of innovation drives everything there, and I've heard they do like dozens of rolling improvements to their cars every week. Most car makers have annual changes. You know they save it up, but yeah, but supposedly they have no budgeting and every employee has, like, the authority to spend money to buy stuff that they think will, in will, improve the speed improvement, the speed of innovation. Anyway, that just happened to think of it, isn't that bizarre? One of the largest market cap companies in the world has no budgeting process, isn't that interesting? \n\nKirk McLaren\nIt really is interesting. I wonder how that plays out. So they're putting emphasis on that speed, to creativity and local ownership of outcomes Right, some? \n\nDavid Spray\nkind of way. That's what I thought. \n\nKirk McLaren\nI don't understand. I wonder if they have forecasts for the business overall. I wonder. That's something that I'm going to make a note of the dive into. I'm always interested if there's a better way. \n\nDavid Spray\nYeah, I wonder. So the guy to look up is a guy named Joe Justice, who's a lean manufacturing guru and he worked at Tesla for like four years, and he's who a lot of that data comes from. As far as no budgeting, yeah, it just sounds like a. In fact, I was so intrigued by when they opened their factory in Austin I live in Houston, I was. If they would have let me, I would have gone to work there for six months, just like for the hell of it. It just seemed like such an amazing place to work, but they probably wanted me there more than six months and I wasn't going to because I've got a buddy in Austin. \n\nyou know their kids are all grown. I probably could stay in a spare bedroom and but anyway, you're the first person I've shared my pipe dream of going to work in the Tesla factory in Austin. \n\nKirk McLaren\nIt'd be interesting in six months, right Because I'm sure there'd be learning not just beyond no budgets, I'm sure there'd be learning in mind, expanding somewhere. \n\nDavid Spray\nYeah, so. So let's get into the stories. This is my favorite part of the interview. You've mentioned you had stories in the book, so, and I agree, stories, I think, are the best way to learn, illustrate a point. So what are some success stories that come to mind? Either from the book, not from the book. If you're allowed to share who the name of the person or company is, feel free to if you, if that's not appropriate, and they just need to be anonymous. But let's talk about some stories. What's one that comes to mind? \n\nKirk McLaren\nWhat are my favorite ones? I'm going to keep the names anonymous because if I say something financial after I say a name, I want to respect confidentiality. And first I think back the last eight years with Foresight. You know the CEOs. I mean, these are remarkable people, right, they have an idea. Sometimes they have circumstances that force them into entrepreneurship. Sometimes they're inspired by an idea, sometimes they're just not corporate people and they want to do the same. And the conversation for nominal I've been humbled because they I knew they were smart. I mean, I've been around for a few days but you know, behind closed doors they really care about their teams and you know, capitalism gets a bad rap. But you talk to business owners, they do want to do well, they do want their team members to do well. Sometimes they're up to their neck and you know, can't even make payroll. Right, they're doing, they're putting payroll on its credit card, their credit card, right and emulsion in their house. \n\nThat's what they're doing and they really do. There's a just a decency that goes beyond what I would. I don't know people like it. Credit for mainstream. \n\nSo there's a CEO of a technology company when Amazon Web Service was coming out and moving companies from their internal structure, like you know, the financial industry, there's insurance industry and everybody else going to the cloud for all the benefits, and cool little company, I mean it started out. You know a bunch of software engineers and they're really good at what they do and you know we started out on the small side for us at the end of the point of two and a half million and quickly grew to five, seven and a half, 10 million and in way, imagine these engineers I mean there were times like, like early on, the engineers are getting ready for the big, you know, industry event and you know engineers want to do a good job. So they take everybody off billable projects and put them into prepared. I say everybody. They took like 20% of their top people off billable projects, put them into doing this event, which, okay, that makes sense until you find out what happened to the cash, right, you just man, right, and yeah, so, so, so that's where we came in like, oh, you know they're not making decisions, knowing that you got to. \n\nYeah, you want to fly the plane and at the same time, make sure there's enough fuel in the tank and you got to see options you know going forward. You know what if we do a versus B and be able to see, you know, profit cash to value the business, kind of stuff. So, coming in on that, what happened to cash situation where the owners literally put money back into the business to to make payroll because bill Bowers went down with no visibility into it. So how do you put those instruments in the place where you know? Teach engineers how to take ownership of their numbers. You know where they're at, like multi financials going forward, teaching them understand right if they go below a certain place and how to get them to a point where daily dashboard where they get where every employee across the company come in, log in in red, green, yellow, based on what they control, they know where to lean in that day and if something's not working they can speak up. So that's a better way of flying the plane versus, oh, no cash right. \n\nDavid Spray\nSo what was you know kind of the outcome of that then? Did their you know amount of cash increase? Did their you know days, you know receivables outstanding improve? Did they recall some of the objective outcomes? \n\nKirk McLaren\nYeah, we literally put in those controls right, the daily dashboard, using the monthly financials. They took ownership of their 12-month rolling budgets. They control the historical plus, the forward. But by month three they're getting comfortable with the financial. At first, nobody wants to look at the financials You're keeping me from doing my job, that kind of stuff. You know we call it financial scoreboard, but it's financials. And then by month six, like man, I can't make a decision. Hey, I'm not making a decision on that event. So I see my financials, where I stand in regards to budget. What do I have? And so by month six, they're really. \n\nYou know, engineers tend to be better than most with numbers and for most people about three, they're kind of getting used to the habit. Month six is like, hey, I need to see my numbers before I can decide about that event and who I dedicate to it. And so the outcome overall is the company grew right, more visibility, profit was strong and this lot of tech companies are kind of built to sell mindset. They don't want to be the best versus the biggest. You know these kind of entrepreneurs and they want to at some point pass the torch. So that's on the flight plan. In this case that space, amazon Web Service became a hot property and it roughly two and a half years ahead of expectations. The business owner was getting multiple offers, competitive offers to sell at a price point above his target and that the valuation is that second payday. So now you got financial freedom. You know, beyond that day to day work. So that was the outcome. \n\nWe've become friends and last Saturday we were bike riding in Washington DC on the hill there. Yeah, you do something like that. That's that brotherhood. Right when you got the CEO, who's a pilot, and then the growth CFOs and navigator and man, you create some good friends. \n\nDavid Spray\nYeah, now, that's some of my favorite people are my clients. So, speaking of that, so describe to us what the elements are of a perfect fit, or a strategic coach calls it a right fit client for you. \n\nKirk McLaren\nThe two, two things one mindset right, if a person has a learning mindset, like some of the things you and I are talking about here, that's going to be fun, that's going to be a good outcome because there is a better way and that will always be true. And you have smart team members with different expertise. And so learning mindset to be able to see something, make a decision, follow through, make adjustments, sometimes on version one of the rollout. Yeah, you know, okay, let's evolve to version two, but not changing some of the tactics, but not losing sight of the division, the mission and the purpose of the organization. So something that learning mindset is critical, both inside foresight and external. Like imagine, you know CFOs coming in who want to be a growth CFO. They have a fixed mindset, want to do status quo. There's nothing I can do to help them Ever Sure, and roughly one out of 17 financial talent can actually do this work. So it's similar internal and external. And we work in three person teams, right, so three minds are better than one and that's how we get beyond status quo and comfort zones and stuff. So it's a very it's a very confident way of working. And then the other thing is some level of revenue, like the, you know, for the full three person team doing work weekly at five million, it starts to make sense right? \n\nWe have clients going up, you know, from one million to two, 119 million in revenue. We do certain things for each of them. At below five million more of a. We kind of have a hybrid hands on and advisory. It's once a month where we look at the financial scoreboard and work on the business together. But a smaller business capacity is so limited For all the right reasons. There is owner trap issues because at a smaller business each team member is going to do more things and so. But we can help them even at a million dollars of revenue we can help them get. We have a clearer path, you know, by working on the business together and establishing a good financial habits early on. That's adjusted to the size that they're at. Like you know, one million dollar company is going to do financial practices very different than a 15-month dollar company or 25 million dollar company. \n\nDavid Spray\nSo what would you say is like your sweet spot, you know revenue-wise, where you just really feel like you really can gel. \n\nKirk McLaren\nSomebody coming in at that five to 20 million level and if they want to double or triple outcomes and maybe it's top line, maybe it's bottom line, but they want to double or triple outcomes that's a good bet, okay that is helpful. \n\nDavid Spray\nAnd talk to me about the three-person team. Is everybody on the team the same or do they have different skills that you're trying to bring together to serve your client? \n\nKirk McLaren\nYeah the team consists of. There's a growth CFO which is the front stage weekly interaction and collaboration and action with the client and their team. Then, somewhat behind the scene, there's a growth CFO partner we call leads, who's making sure that we're not stuck or seeing things. They're working somewhat behind the scenes. They come in maybe quarterly with the client, you know, just to make sure that it's broader. And then the third person is an analyst or a accountant, right depending on kind of what the business needs, and they're doing lots of legwork. Like, for example, we come in to a client, we do a financial health check to make sure we don't miss something useful, including looking at, you know, tax incentives like export and R&D and stuff. We're not the expert on that by any means, but we'll look. \n\nLevel one. You know what is there a possibility that's being done by the analysts and accounting team roughly 20 to 40 hours of laywork all backstage. We're not trying to put any more burden on the client. You know the CFO and their team, so that they have a case. We work, we have a multi-year view to your destination and then we plan in detail and follow through in 90 day sprints where your project may be level what we over or under you know on a day to basis and that's kind of the cadence, but it's a very you can imagine an account and accountant or analyst is going to see some things differently than a CFO and a CFO partner to say, huh, we're status quo, there's a bigger opportunity. This is the kink in the hose for this CEO. \n\nWe do the diagnostics in the areas of new client acquisition, people capacity. We've seen a lot of best practices, so we kind of have these. Let's look at from recruiting to onboarding, to that performance management. What's what could help these be even better for that to create a remarkable people environment that they want. Okay, so the team members sometimes it's the part of guy saying, hi, it's not here, it's here. \n\nDavid Spray\nYeah, and then you said the front stage person another strategic coach term front stage backstage. So you've you've just absorbed all this. It's second nature to you. So what's the cadence that I hear you say weekly? Is that the typical meeting cadence, or is it twice a month? \n\nKirk McLaren\nYeah, it's for for the full service. You know companies doing five million plus where it's good fit. Every week we're doing a huddle at least 25 minutes is the calibrate and then the growth ceo is working with whoever the right person is in that in the client's company. Okay, get the outcomes they're looking for and that clue is developing the managers to use the numbers, and but that it's a weekly cadence for internally we're dedicated one full day. The growth ceo is one full day to each client, totally blocked off, dedicated in the zone, and there's roughly over the course of a year there's roughly a full second day with the other two members of the team. \n\nYou know that kind of thing, there's certain periods of the year that have more work and other periods that have, like the diagnostics, or there's more work for the backstage team members. \n\nDavid Spray\nOkay, no, that's that's really helpful and that's it. I've met other fractional CFO type companies, but the three person team seems seems like a unique concept. Well, I can't believe how quickly the time has gone by. A couple more questions. What do you wish? What do you wish you knew when you were 25? \n\nKirk McLaren\nI wish I was kind of guy, very task-oriented, tell her to the desk driving outcomes. I wish that myself now could have said hey, Kirk, that's great, but you also get out there and meet remarkable people and develop beyond trust, develop a relationship with them, because that's how you're going to unlock the bigger purpose, the bigger impact. \n\nDavid Spray\nI really like that. I ask that question to most of my guests and some of the answers have a constant theme, but that's really a unique answer. Get away from the desk and go meet remarkable people, yeah. \n\nKirk McLaren\nI mean even next week I've been working with a person by the name of Janet Hogan and she's in Australia. So just by the accent alone she's worth working with. And come to learn that this is recent right. I come to learn that the way I do vacation, I like freedom, so I go any place. I went to Venezuela years ago when I was in my twenties nothing better backpack lived there for a year. \n\nI had no agenda, that kind of submit people, things, great things came out of including my wife, 26 years, married two boys, that kind of stuff. Never expected that going in, but I was there. So that's how I do vacation and I work with Janet Hogan. I come to realize wait a minute, janet, do you mean I can just travel places like next week I'm going to Florida. All week I have a few meetings that have no agenda. These are clients, prospects, partners. I just want to get to know them and you see me get excited. You mean that's work because it feels like vacation. You mean I can actually do that. So I've got lined up now one week per month I'm just going to no agenda line up meetings, meet people, kind of see where they are and what's going on. \n\nDavid Spray\nI'm more freedom involved in that, isn't it. I love the Australian accent. My iPhone Siri is an Australian woman. \n\nKirk McLaren\nYeah, so that's how the wisdom goes by, you can see with the Australian actor. \n\nDavid Spray\nOh, you mean wait a minute, yeah, so yeah in fact it seems like if all the people from, I guess, the English Commonwealth the Australian seemed to me just to be the most freedom focused. I mean they just seem all about walk about. I think is their term to just kind of go wandering. \n\nKirk McLaren\nYeah, yeah, they do seem to value, like there's a level of individualism but also consideration for others that you need uniquely Australian, and I remember we had team members there in Australia and they would have. Yeah, I think they're agreeing, but they're not agreeing, they're just being friendly, they're just being wild, say wait a minute. \n\nDavid Spray\nHow about that? So, kirk, what else? What did I not ask you that you wish I would have, as we're wrapping up, A good question. \n\nKirk McLaren\nSo I'm really excited. Like for me, the bigger here's one, the bigger purpose, right? Okay, yeah, I have a business. What's coming out of from the? From launching the book, I'm becoming the freedom guy. So you know, beyond reimagining the CFOs, actually going out and coaching people how they gain freedom, but more from a speaking, so speaking is becoming big. Right, I'm going out talk to groups of all sizes. The bigger purpose is like, like CPAs, you know, accountants have the CPA certified public accountant exam. So I would love the CR growth, cfo certification which every employee who comes into the business goes through that and they re certify every year. I would love to see that catch on. \n\nAnd you know the bigger impact for financial people to go beyond tasks, how to become that beyond trust, that true navigator with the CEO. Because with the rise of the machine, with the machines doing more of the labor, more of the analytics, more of the tasks, like I think machines will do easily 80, 90% of what normal accountants, normal CPAs, do. So the best financial people, the ones who succeed, are going to have a great life or the ones who can take that last, the last mile of work and able to help other people across the organization and external use that information. Wow, you mean these are the customers. And then you brought up in more focus than that. That is the financial professional who's going to have an awesome life, the ones that are holding on to the past trying to compete with AI. Good, luck. \n\nDavid Spray\nYeah, great, I agree. Well, that is awesome. So we talked about the bigger purpose, we talked about the history, talked about the three person team, talked about what a growth CFO is, talked about the book. I think we've really packed a lot of information into a little over a half an hour. Well, I really appreciate your time, Kirk. This has really been fun and I've enjoyed getting to know you a bit more. Discover the cradle principle commonality, the strategic coach commonality. This has been fun. I think we should continue this conversation offline in the future. What do you say? \n\nKirk McLaren\nI would love to do that and I'm going to be in Houston soon. My son moved down there, the Army officer teaching at the University of all things. So, accident, that's not an Army duty either, but so I'll be in your neighborhood often. \n\nDavid Spray\nThat sounds great. Well, we definitely need to get together. Well, hey, kirk, again, I really appreciate the time, and best of luck is you're helping these companies reimagine their future. \n\nKirk McLaren\nYeah, and David, thank you for inviting me to tell my story, because I don't get many opportunities to do this, so I thank you really so much. \n\nDavid Spray\nOh, hey, my pleasure. Have a great day, Kirk. Thank you, see you. Special Guest: Kirk McLaren.","content_html":"In today's illuminating episode, listen in as I chat with Kirk McLaren, founder of Foresight CFO, about thriving in finance and business.
\n\nKirk lifts the veil on the strategic growth CFO role beyond tasks. Discover pivotal client habits and Kirk's innovative fractional model. An intriguing question prompts Kirk's life-shaping reflections.
\n\nDive into Kirk's book exploring transformational practices. Thought-provoking topics include Tesla's budgeting, lean innovator Joe Justice, and the power of tales. I also share leadership lessons from my CEO collaborations.
\n\nFinally, uncover a CFO's higher mission. Kirk illuminates the Growth CFO Certification, empowering professionals as strategic partners. If you seek financial stewardship strategies or a richer purpose, this episode presents a treasury of wisdom for cultivating sustainable growth in your organization and career.
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SHOW HIGHLIGHTS
\n\n| Kirk McLaren | \n
(AI transcript provided as supporting material and may contain errors)
\n\nAnd then Kirk also gave me an answer to a standard question. I ask of what do you wish you knew when you were 25 years old? And his answer is different than anyone else's I've heard. So Kirk brings a novel approach to outsource CFO and I really learned a lot about what's possible with a fractional CFO. So I hope you enjoyed this episode as much as I did. Kirk. Welcome to the podcast.
\n\nKirk McLaren
\nYeah, David, I'm so glad that you invited me here to talk to your guests and kind of explore backgrounds, that kind of stuff.
David Spray
\nWell, awesome, well, thank you for being on. So first off, I'd like to thank you for your service to our country. So, thank you for that.
Kirk McLaren
\nYeah, that was a long time ago, back in 1991, and I was a long way from the bullets but literally left school, joined the army, became a behavioral scientist and that's how I ended up going from Houston, texas, you know, growing up as a young man there, and then dropped out of school, and that's how I ended up going from Houston to Washington DC and stayed here ever since.
David Spray
\nThat's awesome, so let's get right into it. Talk to me about your company. Yeah, oversight. Cfo.
Kirk McLaren
\nYeah. So the company started I mean roughly 30 years building mostly private business. I did some nonprofits and some quasi government stuff with the telecom industry and then, 30 years into, I started to notice that business owners oftentimes I'm the finest guy, I can see a clear opportunity, but the business owners were hesitate, they'd hesitate on making decisions and sometimes the fall through wasn't strong. And so I came to learn that a lot of business owners, their business becomes the monster of their own making. Right, they got all these hats on, they go on vacation. They're actually working remotely versus enjoying other things in their life like their family. And meanwhile, most CFOs including me, you know we occupied ourselves with financial management, the accounting operations, maybe treasury. If it's a bigger business, there could be like import, export taxes, kind of the things where your expertise come into play. We focus on those kind of things instead of alleviating the CEO's pain. So around 2015, I mean I kept getting hit in the head with things in life where, hey, maybe there's a better way, right, yeah, yeah, maybe, right, you know, things keep coming in and maybe I should pay attention to something here.
And so in 2015, it started to reimagine that the CFO's role as a true navigator with the CEO, and by this I mean you know, learning. You know, as a CFO, a navigator side by side with the CEO, learning how to help the CEO escape the owner's trap. Like you know, they were born. There's something that the CEO is really good at but they're oftentimes not doing. They're not focused on that area. So how do we help them focus on that area?
\n\nAnd how does, as a CFO, how do I collaborate with subject matter experts across the company, like like the CMOs and the salespeople and delivery people to help them obliterate the obstacles to growth? Right? So it's a broader partner than just the financial operation. And then you know, at the same time, while doing that, it's definitely those financial habits or profitability that allow us to see okay, where are we coming from, where are we going to? That was really the birth of the foresight CFO. It just kept seeing that business owner or private companies they get hung up, they're trapped, you know, by their business and so maybe there's a better way.
\n\nDavid Spray
\nThat's where it all started, and so the foresight and the name means, I guess, looking forward instead of backwards no-transcript.
Kirk McLaren
\nYeah, yeah, like, where do you want to? You got a business, you got into your business for a reason. What is your destination? Where do you want to end up? And a lot of times for me, I'm a big freedom guy. I mean, I want you know. I want freedom of time, freedom of money. I want freedom of purpose to do what I really care about, versus being tethered to some obligation that's not worthwhile. So that's the force.
David Spray
\nDon't forget the fourth. Don't forget the fourth freedom, freedom of relationship.
Kirk McLaren
\nYeah, that's a big one right. So, dave, what does that mean to you?
David Spray
\nfreedom of relationship, what it means associating, you know, serving who I want to serve, work with who I want to serve. So the reason I knew the fourth freedom was because I've spent many years in strategic coach, which is probably where you learn the four freedoms as well, I'm guessing, or from Dan Sullivan.
Kirk McLaren
\nYeah, dan Sullivan, strategic goals are brilliant and so, but that's a key point when you can actually choose who you work with, you're both inside and outside. You know that's liberation, it is.
David Spray
\nIt is, and so I know your tagline is that you're a growth CFO, and so I can appreciate that the looking forward has kind of one component. But then the growth CFO piece, you know, that strikes me as more unique, because that almost sounds like a blending of you know, being the chief revenue officer, if you will. So talk to me about how you are able to leverage that CFO role into you know, revenue growth.
Kirk McLaren
\nYeah, and that's one of the five obstacles. It used to be the number one obstacle is how to help clients when new clients and closely behind that was the number two obstacle, which is keeping and growing existing clients. Now the number one obstacle is people. So we might want to talk about that in a moment. But, to answer your question, the growth CFOs are definitely CFOs. Right, we're not trying to become master, you know, with jack of all trades, master to none, but it's more if you have, doesn't matter about whatever the title. It is the chief sales people, the chief marketing officer, whatever title they have. In our world. The growth CFO works hand in hand and we have certain strengths. That doesn't numbers people, finance people, you know, are we minding the data? Like, oftentimes you have companies that are doing well and they think of all their customers as the same, like, hey, we need more, we have 14,000 customers. These are real examples, by the way. We have 14,000 customers. We need more of those. Really, you need more of those Because if you run the data, if you mind that data, using the skills that you know the CPAs and the finance people brings to the table, you actually find out.
You know the 80 20 rule plays out, where roughly 20% of your clients are producing 80% of that. You know the financial outcomes and those people love you. They love you, love work with them. You can do your best work with them. It's good synergies, you ring value. They want you to be paid well, it's great, right, all the way around. And likewise vice versa. The bottom 20% you're losing money. They don't like you, right? You don't get along. People don't want to go to work on that site. So when you mind the data kind of kind of coming in, you know how growth stuff will work with the CMO or the sales team. Hey, let's look at who can actually do our best work with using that data. Let's figure out who are these people. What is the voice of the client? Why do those people sign up with us? Why do they keep going with us and then align everything to that, like bundling services. Maybe there's cross sell ups, so maybe you can do even better work with them.
\n\nPricing strategy you know a lot of times, you know, you know CEOs are private businesses. They're very risk adverse when it comes to pricing. But can we value price If you're making this kind of outcome for those best clients? Can you share that, that doing well by doing good and then aligning everything, aligning the the, you know lead generation, marketing, aligning the sales process to that best top 20%. And then maybe, once you get confident there you know this is not overnight do things step by step, crawl, walk, run, so that you're not betting the farm on any one decision, but you're making decisions with clarity, you're making phone calls with the clarity of the habits right, the financial habits, and then maybe the bottom 20%. That's you eating up everything you got. Maybe refer them to your competition, right, maybe you work with who you want to work with, that freedom of relationship. So that's kind of a picture.
\n\nAn actual example would be a client that had had software as a service, kind of online platform 14,000 customers. Exact scenario you can't. I want more customers, do you? Really? Because we do the data and these people buy from you and keep coming back. These other people, man your calls, customer service, call centers loaded up with people who you will, customers, clients that you will never make happy. Yeah, how about right?
\n\nDavid Spray
\nSo yeah, in fact, I believe the official name of that 80 20 rule is called the Pareto principle, named after an Italian economist from a long time ago. But you know, the most interesting part of the Pareto principle is when you take it to a second level. So if you look at, you know 20% of your customers are accounting for 80% of your revenue. Well, if you take the 20% of your 20% and the 80% of the 80%, you'll find that 4% of your customers are accounting for 64% of the revenues yeah right.
Which is even more powerful. It's interesting, the book. There's a guy that wrote a book called the 80 20 principle and I cannot remember his name. I can picture the book and he had an exercise where you would take your clients and rank them in descending order by like revenue or profit, and then you'd have a cumulative column, right, so your first customer counts, you're for 5%, your next one accounts for 4%, so that's 9%. And he had this exercise. You'd go through there and you would just see how many customers down you'd have to go to. You got to, like you know, a significant amount of your revenue. And it was really interesting looking at centers of influence and, like I discovered when I did that, like 80% of my referrals came from five centers of influence. Is that right?
\n\nAnd I realized I didn't even need to go into any more networking events. All I had to do is spend more time with those five people and you know these were the five people who I met with once a year.
\n\nSo you're like wonder what happens if I met with them quarterly, just those five people. So anyway, so I'm always fascinated by that, the 80 20. And the other funny thing about that, I'm sure you know this it doesn't have to be 80 20, it doesn't have to add up to 100. It can be an 80 10 or a 70 20, or it's really just pointing out that there's these disproportionate outcome from you know, limited inputs, but anyway. So yeah, I always love talking to somebody about Pareto principle, but let's go deeper there.
\n\nKirk McLaren
\nI mean, look what it just did for you. Wow, five relationships produce most of my outcomes.
So now if I wanted to, I could definitely put more attention to those folks right, because that's your bread and butter, makes total sense. Probably more will come from that. If you more attention, more outcomes, that kind of stuff. So in addition you essentially could work half as much. Don't do the things that are complete ways. Focus on those five and actually produce more. So now you got freedom of time. You got that freedom of relationship. You work with people, you really get to know each other.
\n\nDavid Spray
\nThat's the irony, those five people were also some of my favorite five centers of influence too.
Kirk McLaren
\nYeah, Beyond trust you really get to know each other. Your interest for each other becomes very sincere. They help each other to do well kind of stuff. But that's brilliant Liberation.
David Spray
\nYes, yeah, I know those dance solvents for freedoms are really powerful, because that's what. That's why we become entrepreneurs is for freedom, anyway, yeah.
Kirk McLaren
\nIt's funny because Matt contacted me from strategic coach and I'm pretty sure I'm coming in. I've been reading his books like who, not how, that kind of stuff, and so it's funny that he's been a big influence, that community, big influence for you.
David Spray
\nYeah, I've been. I'm currently on sabbatical from strategic coach and, but I've been, I did a sabbatical before, but I guess I've got about 10 years total and just a wonderful. In fact, anytime I talk to somebody about strategic coach, I start thinking that my sabbatical should perhaps be over.
Kirk McLaren
\nYeah, back years ago in previous life I worked for Richard Rossi, who's been a strategic coach. I remember when I was his finance guy questioning him on the investment time and money kind of stuff and it's not a big investment in money, but finance guy or someone questioning things. It may have learned a lot since then, yeah, but how important peer group and coaching is I mean night and day versus working in isolation for CEOs.
David Spray
\nFor sure. Yeah, I would strongly recommend strategic coach, because it gives you a chance to think about your thinking. That's one of Dan's lines, so let's switch gears. So you and I have something in common We've both authored a book. Yours was a best seller, mine was not. So talk to me about the book. What's the name of it? When was it published? What prompted you to publish it?
Kirk McLaren
\nSo the book title is called the Growth CFO Void. So that missing team member, right that basically the missing navigator to the CEO who's a pilot at the plane, and there were a number of things that kind of prompted. Like what I teach at Georgetown School Continues Studies, kind of a fun thing. I'm big on developing people A lot of times go beyond their self-imposed limits, so I love teaching and the geez man, the textbooks and resources for what business owners and business people really need, like what are practical financial habits? There's really the three practical habits that can change any manager's life Right, just clarity and confidence on where we're at and engineering that path going forward.
And the material on that was my book is not a textbook. There are more stories, that kind of stuff. I think that's how people learn and the material on that is like man, it's just overly loaded with jargon. Not everybody is designed to be a CPA. Most people are not designed to be a CPA and most people if you pull up a spreadsheet you literally put them into the checkout zone and so that kind of prompted I need something better. And then also telling our story, since we reimagine what a CFO is. There's plenty of CEO business owners who they know what a traditional CFO is. So this whole new role not redefining the existing role, I should say better, it's just a new concept. I needed a way of telling stories and case studies where they can start to see themselves oh that's what a better way might do. And that prompted it. And so, you know, teamed up with Forbes and they accepted my idea for the book and we published last September last year. Oh, that's great.
\n\nDavid Spray
\nSo what are the three habits that you mentioned?
Kirk McLaren
\nYeah, the first one is, across the company managers use the monthly financials like a scoreboard, okay, and a lot of times that's very awkward for them, initially because it looks like hieroglyphics. The second one is getting your hands around cash, so positive cash for both, like 12 week cash forecast, but also how about measuring the cash conversion cycle and see it and then comparing that to benchmarks, because maybe there's something there. And then the third one is we call it engineering profitability with a rolling 12 month budget, okay, and we call it actually a flight plan 12 month flight plan and it then also the multi-year flight plan, like how do we get if you want to end up at a certain place or destination? This has some visibility on how we're going to do that year to year. But the detail work is that third habit the 12 month rolling budget.
David Spray
\nOkay, that's you know. I learned something interesting about Tesla. You know, supposedly they don't use any budgets.
Kirk McLaren
\nReally yeah.
David Spray
\nWhat do they do they? They're all, apparently. As I understand it, they're all about innovation. Speed of innovation drives everything there, and I've heard they do like dozens of rolling improvements to their cars every week. Most car makers have annual changes. You know they save it up, but yeah, but supposedly they have no budgeting and every employee has, like, the authority to spend money to buy stuff that they think will, in will, improve the speed improvement, the speed of innovation. Anyway, that just happened to think of it, isn't that bizarre? One of the largest market cap companies in the world has no budgeting process, isn't that interesting?
Kirk McLaren
\nIt really is interesting. I wonder how that plays out. So they're putting emphasis on that speed, to creativity and local ownership of outcomes Right, some?
David Spray
\nkind of way. That's what I thought.
Kirk McLaren
\nI don't understand. I wonder if they have forecasts for the business overall. I wonder. That's something that I'm going to make a note of the dive into. I'm always interested if there's a better way.
David Spray
\nYeah, I wonder. So the guy to look up is a guy named Joe Justice, who's a lean manufacturing guru and he worked at Tesla for like four years, and he's who a lot of that data comes from. As far as no budgeting, yeah, it just sounds like a. In fact, I was so intrigued by when they opened their factory in Austin I live in Houston, I was. If they would have let me, I would have gone to work there for six months, just like for the hell of it. It just seemed like such an amazing place to work, but they probably wanted me there more than six months and I wasn't going to because I've got a buddy in Austin.
you know their kids are all grown. I probably could stay in a spare bedroom and but anyway, you're the first person I've shared my pipe dream of going to work in the Tesla factory in Austin.
\n\nKirk McLaren
\nIt'd be interesting in six months, right Because I'm sure there'd be learning not just beyond no budgets, I'm sure there'd be learning in mind, expanding somewhere.
David Spray
\nYeah, so. So let's get into the stories. This is my favorite part of the interview. You've mentioned you had stories in the book, so, and I agree, stories, I think, are the best way to learn, illustrate a point. So what are some success stories that come to mind? Either from the book, not from the book. If you're allowed to share who the name of the person or company is, feel free to if you, if that's not appropriate, and they just need to be anonymous. But let's talk about some stories. What's one that comes to mind?
Kirk McLaren
\nWhat are my favorite ones? I'm going to keep the names anonymous because if I say something financial after I say a name, I want to respect confidentiality. And first I think back the last eight years with Foresight. You know the CEOs. I mean, these are remarkable people, right, they have an idea. Sometimes they have circumstances that force them into entrepreneurship. Sometimes they're inspired by an idea, sometimes they're just not corporate people and they want to do the same. And the conversation for nominal I've been humbled because they I knew they were smart. I mean, I've been around for a few days but you know, behind closed doors they really care about their teams and you know, capitalism gets a bad rap. But you talk to business owners, they do want to do well, they do want their team members to do well. Sometimes they're up to their neck and you know, can't even make payroll. Right, they're doing, they're putting payroll on its credit card, their credit card, right and emulsion in their house.
That's what they're doing and they really do. There's a just a decency that goes beyond what I would. I don't know people like it. Credit for mainstream.
\n\nSo there's a CEO of a technology company when Amazon Web Service was coming out and moving companies from their internal structure, like you know, the financial industry, there's insurance industry and everybody else going to the cloud for all the benefits, and cool little company, I mean it started out. You know a bunch of software engineers and they're really good at what they do and you know we started out on the small side for us at the end of the point of two and a half million and quickly grew to five, seven and a half, 10 million and in way, imagine these engineers I mean there were times like, like early on, the engineers are getting ready for the big, you know, industry event and you know engineers want to do a good job. So they take everybody off billable projects and put them into prepared. I say everybody. They took like 20% of their top people off billable projects, put them into doing this event, which, okay, that makes sense until you find out what happened to the cash, right, you just man, right, and yeah, so, so, so that's where we came in like, oh, you know they're not making decisions, knowing that you got to.
\n\nYeah, you want to fly the plane and at the same time, make sure there's enough fuel in the tank and you got to see options you know going forward. You know what if we do a versus B and be able to see, you know, profit cash to value the business, kind of stuff. So, coming in on that, what happened to cash situation where the owners literally put money back into the business to to make payroll because bill Bowers went down with no visibility into it. So how do you put those instruments in the place where you know? Teach engineers how to take ownership of their numbers. You know where they're at, like multi financials going forward, teaching them understand right if they go below a certain place and how to get them to a point where daily dashboard where they get where every employee across the company come in, log in in red, green, yellow, based on what they control, they know where to lean in that day and if something's not working they can speak up. So that's a better way of flying the plane versus, oh, no cash right.
\n\nDavid Spray
\nSo what was you know kind of the outcome of that then? Did their you know amount of cash increase? Did their you know days, you know receivables outstanding improve? Did they recall some of the objective outcomes?
Kirk McLaren
\nYeah, we literally put in those controls right, the daily dashboard, using the monthly financials. They took ownership of their 12-month rolling budgets. They control the historical plus, the forward. But by month three they're getting comfortable with the financial. At first, nobody wants to look at the financials You're keeping me from doing my job, that kind of stuff. You know we call it financial scoreboard, but it's financials. And then by month six, like man, I can't make a decision. Hey, I'm not making a decision on that event. So I see my financials, where I stand in regards to budget. What do I have? And so by month six, they're really.
You know, engineers tend to be better than most with numbers and for most people about three, they're kind of getting used to the habit. Month six is like, hey, I need to see my numbers before I can decide about that event and who I dedicate to it. And so the outcome overall is the company grew right, more visibility, profit was strong and this lot of tech companies are kind of built to sell mindset. They don't want to be the best versus the biggest. You know these kind of entrepreneurs and they want to at some point pass the torch. So that's on the flight plan. In this case that space, amazon Web Service became a hot property and it roughly two and a half years ahead of expectations. The business owner was getting multiple offers, competitive offers to sell at a price point above his target and that the valuation is that second payday. So now you got financial freedom. You know, beyond that day to day work. So that was the outcome.
\n\nWe've become friends and last Saturday we were bike riding in Washington DC on the hill there. Yeah, you do something like that. That's that brotherhood. Right when you got the CEO, who's a pilot, and then the growth CFOs and navigator and man, you create some good friends.
\n\nDavid Spray
\nYeah, now, that's some of my favorite people are my clients. So, speaking of that, so describe to us what the elements are of a perfect fit, or a strategic coach calls it a right fit client for you.
Kirk McLaren
\nThe two, two things one mindset right, if a person has a learning mindset, like some of the things you and I are talking about here, that's going to be fun, that's going to be a good outcome because there is a better way and that will always be true. And you have smart team members with different expertise. And so learning mindset to be able to see something, make a decision, follow through, make adjustments, sometimes on version one of the rollout. Yeah, you know, okay, let's evolve to version two, but not changing some of the tactics, but not losing sight of the division, the mission and the purpose of the organization. So something that learning mindset is critical, both inside foresight and external. Like imagine, you know CFOs coming in who want to be a growth CFO. They have a fixed mindset, want to do status quo. There's nothing I can do to help them Ever Sure, and roughly one out of 17 financial talent can actually do this work. So it's similar internal and external. And we work in three person teams, right, so three minds are better than one and that's how we get beyond status quo and comfort zones and stuff. So it's a very it's a very confident way of working. And then the other thing is some level of revenue, like the, you know, for the full three person team doing work weekly at five million, it starts to make sense right?
We have clients going up, you know, from one million to two, 119 million in revenue. We do certain things for each of them. At below five million more of a. We kind of have a hybrid hands on and advisory. It's once a month where we look at the financial scoreboard and work on the business together. But a smaller business capacity is so limited For all the right reasons. There is owner trap issues because at a smaller business each team member is going to do more things and so. But we can help them even at a million dollars of revenue we can help them get. We have a clearer path, you know, by working on the business together and establishing a good financial habits early on. That's adjusted to the size that they're at. Like you know, one million dollar company is going to do financial practices very different than a 15-month dollar company or 25 million dollar company.
\n\nDavid Spray
\nSo what would you say is like your sweet spot, you know revenue-wise, where you just really feel like you really can gel.
Kirk McLaren
\nSomebody coming in at that five to 20 million level and if they want to double or triple outcomes and maybe it's top line, maybe it's bottom line, but they want to double or triple outcomes that's a good bet, okay that is helpful.
David Spray
\nAnd talk to me about the three-person team. Is everybody on the team the same or do they have different skills that you're trying to bring together to serve your client?
Kirk McLaren
\nYeah the team consists of. There's a growth CFO which is the front stage weekly interaction and collaboration and action with the client and their team. Then, somewhat behind the scene, there's a growth CFO partner we call leads, who's making sure that we're not stuck or seeing things. They're working somewhat behind the scenes. They come in maybe quarterly with the client, you know, just to make sure that it's broader. And then the third person is an analyst or a accountant, right depending on kind of what the business needs, and they're doing lots of legwork. Like, for example, we come in to a client, we do a financial health check to make sure we don't miss something useful, including looking at, you know, tax incentives like export and R&D and stuff. We're not the expert on that by any means, but we'll look.
Level one. You know what is there a possibility that's being done by the analysts and accounting team roughly 20 to 40 hours of laywork all backstage. We're not trying to put any more burden on the client. You know the CFO and their team, so that they have a case. We work, we have a multi-year view to your destination and then we plan in detail and follow through in 90 day sprints where your project may be level what we over or under you know on a day to basis and that's kind of the cadence, but it's a very you can imagine an account and accountant or analyst is going to see some things differently than a CFO and a CFO partner to say, huh, we're status quo, there's a bigger opportunity. This is the kink in the hose for this CEO.
\n\nWe do the diagnostics in the areas of new client acquisition, people capacity. We've seen a lot of best practices, so we kind of have these. Let's look at from recruiting to onboarding, to that performance management. What's what could help these be even better for that to create a remarkable people environment that they want. Okay, so the team members sometimes it's the part of guy saying, hi, it's not here, it's here.
\n\nDavid Spray
\nYeah, and then you said the front stage person another strategic coach term front stage backstage. So you've you've just absorbed all this. It's second nature to you. So what's the cadence that I hear you say weekly? Is that the typical meeting cadence, or is it twice a month?
Kirk McLaren
\nYeah, it's for for the full service. You know companies doing five million plus where it's good fit. Every week we're doing a huddle at least 25 minutes is the calibrate and then the growth ceo is working with whoever the right person is in that in the client's company. Okay, get the outcomes they're looking for and that clue is developing the managers to use the numbers, and but that it's a weekly cadence for internally we're dedicated one full day. The growth ceo is one full day to each client, totally blocked off, dedicated in the zone, and there's roughly over the course of a year there's roughly a full second day with the other two members of the team.
You know that kind of thing, there's certain periods of the year that have more work and other periods that have, like the diagnostics, or there's more work for the backstage team members.
\n\nDavid Spray
\nOkay, no, that's that's really helpful and that's it. I've met other fractional CFO type companies, but the three person team seems seems like a unique concept. Well, I can't believe how quickly the time has gone by. A couple more questions. What do you wish? What do you wish you knew when you were 25?
Kirk McLaren
\nI wish I was kind of guy, very task-oriented, tell her to the desk driving outcomes. I wish that myself now could have said hey, Kirk, that's great, but you also get out there and meet remarkable people and develop beyond trust, develop a relationship with them, because that's how you're going to unlock the bigger purpose, the bigger impact.
David Spray
\nI really like that. I ask that question to most of my guests and some of the answers have a constant theme, but that's really a unique answer. Get away from the desk and go meet remarkable people, yeah.
Kirk McLaren
\nI mean even next week I've been working with a person by the name of Janet Hogan and she's in Australia. So just by the accent alone she's worth working with. And come to learn that this is recent right. I come to learn that the way I do vacation, I like freedom, so I go any place. I went to Venezuela years ago when I was in my twenties nothing better backpack lived there for a year.
I had no agenda, that kind of submit people, things, great things came out of including my wife, 26 years, married two boys, that kind of stuff. Never expected that going in, but I was there. So that's how I do vacation and I work with Janet Hogan. I come to realize wait a minute, janet, do you mean I can just travel places like next week I'm going to Florida. All week I have a few meetings that have no agenda. These are clients, prospects, partners. I just want to get to know them and you see me get excited. You mean that's work because it feels like vacation. You mean I can actually do that. So I've got lined up now one week per month I'm just going to no agenda line up meetings, meet people, kind of see where they are and what's going on.
\n\nDavid Spray
\nI'm more freedom involved in that, isn't it. I love the Australian accent. My iPhone Siri is an Australian woman.
Kirk McLaren
\nYeah, so that's how the wisdom goes by, you can see with the Australian actor.
David Spray
\nOh, you mean wait a minute, yeah, so yeah in fact it seems like if all the people from, I guess, the English Commonwealth the Australian seemed to me just to be the most freedom focused. I mean they just seem all about walk about. I think is their term to just kind of go wandering.
Kirk McLaren
\nYeah, yeah, they do seem to value, like there's a level of individualism but also consideration for others that you need uniquely Australian, and I remember we had team members there in Australia and they would have. Yeah, I think they're agreeing, but they're not agreeing, they're just being friendly, they're just being wild, say wait a minute.
David Spray
\nHow about that? So, kirk, what else? What did I not ask you that you wish I would have, as we're wrapping up, A good question.
Kirk McLaren
\nSo I'm really excited. Like for me, the bigger here's one, the bigger purpose, right? Okay, yeah, I have a business. What's coming out of from the? From launching the book, I'm becoming the freedom guy. So you know, beyond reimagining the CFOs, actually going out and coaching people how they gain freedom, but more from a speaking, so speaking is becoming big. Right, I'm going out talk to groups of all sizes. The bigger purpose is like, like CPAs, you know, accountants have the CPA certified public accountant exam. So I would love the CR growth, cfo certification which every employee who comes into the business goes through that and they re certify every year. I would love to see that catch on.
And you know the bigger impact for financial people to go beyond tasks, how to become that beyond trust, that true navigator with the CEO. Because with the rise of the machine, with the machines doing more of the labor, more of the analytics, more of the tasks, like I think machines will do easily 80, 90% of what normal accountants, normal CPAs, do. So the best financial people, the ones who succeed, are going to have a great life or the ones who can take that last, the last mile of work and able to help other people across the organization and external use that information. Wow, you mean these are the customers. And then you brought up in more focus than that. That is the financial professional who's going to have an awesome life, the ones that are holding on to the past trying to compete with AI. Good, luck.
\n\nDavid Spray
\nYeah, great, I agree. Well, that is awesome. So we talked about the bigger purpose, we talked about the history, talked about the three person team, talked about what a growth CFO is, talked about the book. I think we've really packed a lot of information into a little over a half an hour. Well, I really appreciate your time, Kirk. This has really been fun and I've enjoyed getting to know you a bit more. Discover the cradle principle commonality, the strategic coach commonality. This has been fun. I think we should continue this conversation offline in the future. What do you say?
Kirk McLaren
\nI would love to do that and I'm going to be in Houston soon. My son moved down there, the Army officer teaching at the University of all things. So, accident, that's not an Army duty either, but so I'll be in your neighborhood often.
David Spray
\nThat sounds great. Well, we definitely need to get together. Well, hey, kirk, again, I really appreciate the time, and best of luck is you're helping these companies reimagine their future.
Kirk McLaren
\nYeah, and David, thank you for inviting me to tell my story, because I don't get many opportunities to do this, so I thank you really so much.
David Spray
\nOh, hey, my pleasure. Have a great day, Kirk. Thank you, see you.
Special Guest: Kirk McLaren.
","summary":"In today's illuminating episode, listen in as I chat with Kirk McLaren, founder of Foresight CFO, about thriving in finance and business. \r\n\r\nKirk lifts the veil on the strategic growth CFO role beyond tasks. Discover pivotal client habits and Kirk's innovative fractional model. An intriguing question prompts Kirk's life-shaping reflections.\r\n\r\nDive into Kirk's book exploring transformational practices. Thought-provoking topics include Tesla's budgeting, lean innovator Joe Justice, and the power of tales. I also share leadership lessons from my CEO collaborations. \r\n\r\n\r\nFinally, uncover a CFO's higher mission. Kirk illuminates the Growth CFO Certification, empowering professionals as strategic partners. If you seek financial stewardship strategies or a richer purpose, this episode presents a treasury of wisdom for cultivating sustainable growth in your organization and career.","date_published":"2023-09-22T09:00:00.000-05:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/d61cedee-227d-47c8-8d74-3407972d4afc/4e7ff8d5-c47b-4dd9-a3bf-403e7b56e391.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":26578142,"duration_in_seconds":2163}]},{"id":"0ffb53d6-be4a-4f69-9a94-f7f2ad9c8aff","title":"Ep046: Exit Planning and Succession with Mike Silverman and Matt Clark","url":"https://www.ic-discshow.com/046","content_text":"\n\n\n\n\n\nToday on the IC-DISC Podcast, I spoke with Mike Silverman and Matt Clark, two attorneys specializing in exit planning and succession planning for business owners. They explained that exit planning is all about planning when an owner wants to leave the company, while succession planning identifies future leaders within the business. Both are crucial since you need a strategy for expected and unexpected departures. \n\nMike and Matt stressed meeting regularly so these plans stay on track and don't cause disruption. They also talked about having a whole team involved beyond just lawyers, with experts in different fields all working together towards long-term goals. \n\nThe overall message I got from listening was planning early, working with professionals with experience like Matt and Mike, and sticking with the process to ensure that transitions go smoothly for everyone.\n\n \n\nSHOW HIGHLIGHTS\n\n\n Many business owners tend to push exit and succession planning to the bottom of their to-do list, focusing instead on day-to-day operations.\nSudden exits without a succession plan can leave the business leaderless and destroy its value. By recognizing the need for succession planning early on, you can protect and maximize the value of your business.\nPlanning helps align goals and increase value for employees, family, and the owner. Clear vision and goals for all stakeholders are necessary for a successful succession plan. \nWithout planning, a sudden exit can result in a dramatic reduction in the value of the business.\nHaving the right people in place and a solid succession plan increases the value of the business to potential buyers.\nA turnkey business that can generate income without the owner's presence is of premium value.\nThey emphasize the importance of working with a team of experts, including estate planning attorneys, CPAs, and wealth advisors. These professionals can provide valuable insights and ensure a comprehensive plan is in place.\nThey also mention that M&A lawyers often push for third-party sales because it's what they know and are experienced in.\nPlanning is not a one-time event but an ongoing process that requires regular meetings and adjustments. Embrace the process, and you'll be well on your way to a successful exit and a bright future for your business.\nThe conversation touches on the indirect acquisition structure and ESOPs as potential strategies.\n\n\n\n\nLINKSShow Notes\nBe a Guest\nAbout IC-DISC Alliance\nAbout Dentons\n\n\nGUEST\n\n\n\nMike SilvermanAbout Mike\n\n\n\n\n\n\nMatthew ClarkAbout Matthew\n\n\n\n\n\nTRANSCRIPT\n\n(AI transcript provided as supporting material and may contain errors)\n\n\n\nDavid Spray\nHi, my name is David Spray, and welcome to another episode of The Icdisc Show. I have a really unique episode today because I have two guests on simultaneously. That's Matt Clark and Mike Silverman. They are both attorneys at the law firm of Denton's, and they're both in the Pittsburgh office. And they have a unique practice around exit planning and succession planning. But it has very much a planning focus rather than a traditional M, a practice that seems to have more of a transactional focus. We talk about all kinds of things around planning, the need for regular meetings to implement succession and exit planning. And we also talk about how ESOPs employee stock ownership plans are one of the best deals in the tax code. That's incredibly underutilized for exit planning. Mike talks in great detail about some of the benefits of ESOP. So this is a great episode for any business owner or key executive at a privately held company to consider. So I hope you enjoy this episode as much as I did. Good morning, gentlemen. How are you all doing today? Good morning.\n\nDavid Spray\nVery well.\n\nDavid Spray\nGood morning.\n\nMike Silverman\nFantastic.\nHow are you doing, David?\n\nDavid Spray\n I am doing great, thank you. Well, I've really been looking forward to this interview because you guys really have some great experience that I think will really benefit clients of mine, as well as just listeners to the podcast. So why don't we just kick off with a little background. Matt, why don't we start with you? Oh, by the way, you guys are calling from Pittsburgh today. Both of you, correct? \nThat's correct. \n\nOkay, so, Matt, let's start off with you. Are you a Pittsburgh native?\n\nMatt Clark\nNo, I'm actually a native outside of I grew up outside of Philadelphia and made my way to Pittsburgh 30 plus years ago. And I call Pittsburgh home now. I went to Duquesne University for undergrad and then law school. My practice is corporate practice. I work with entrepreneurs and business owners and various areas, but a big part of it is part of their exit planning, and succession planning is a big part of our practice. And so I get to work with fantastic colleagues like Mike, who is certified, but in exit planning and succession planning. And so we just have a fantastic team based in Pittsburgh. But I'm with Denton's. We're the largest law firm in the world, and so we have the ability to work with clients on a truly a global basis to make sure that we're meeting and fulfilling all of their legal needs.\n\nDavid Spray\nGreat. That's great. Well, thank you for that quick background. Now. What about you, Mike? Are you a native Pittsburgh bergonian what's the term?\n\nMike Silverman\nI think they call them Pittsburgh.\n\nDavid Spray\nOkay.\n\nMike Silverman\nBut yes, I'm born and bred, have always lived here in Pittsburgh. I grew up in the eastern suburbs. I went to college in Baltimore at Johns Hopkins University. I got my law degree at University of Pittsburgh, and then I got a master's in tax law after law school at New York University Law School. And like Matt, I'm a business attorney and I represent middle market companies throughout the lifecycle of a business, and succession planning isn't a very significant part of my legal practice.\n\nDavid Spray\nOkay, that's great. And do you have an accounting undergrad graduate degree?\n\nMike Silverman\n No, undergrad. Odly, enough. I was an engineering major undergrad. I thought I was going to become my patent lawyer, but I fell in love with my tax courses in law school, so I went a different route.\n\nDavid Spray\nOkay, well, sounds good. So one of the things that is I've gotten to know you guys that I've learned is I had a misconception that exit planning and succession planning were basically the same thing. But as I've learned more about this, there appears to really be a significant difference. Mike, why don't you share with the audience how you delineate between exit planning and succession planning?\n\nMike Silverman\nWell, ever y new corporate client that I get, I ask them the rhetorical question of whether they've done their exit planning and succession planning, and the answer invariably is no. And they also have this misconception that you referred to that exit planning and succession planning are redundant with one another. And that is a misconception because they're totally discreet. Exit planning is the planning exercise we go through to identify the structure under which a business owner is going to exit from his or her business. And there's a lot involved with developing that structure. We'll talk about it during the course of the podcast, but we want to do a deep dive into your business to figure out what your goals are personal goals, financial goals, business goals, and then figure out what kind of exit structure facilitates those goals and enables you to achieve those goals. Succession planning is very different. Succession planning, what we're going to do there is to identify who are the key employees in the operation of a business. And then once we've identified those individuals, we have to identify who their successors are going to be. Are there people that are coming up through the ranks in the company, or do we have to go out and recruit people laterally so that we don't have a drop off if an employee leaves or gets hit by a bus, et cetera. But regardless of how business owner is going to exit from his or her business, we want to make sure we have very seamless and tax efficient structures in place for both the exit plan as well as the succession plan.\n\nDavid Spray\nIs succession planning a subset of exit planning, or is exit planning a subset of succession planning, or are they parallel tracks?\n\nMike Silverman\nThey're parallel tracks. They're totally distinct from one another, and they're not linked together at all.\nIt's important you do both. You can't do one without the other, in my view.\n\nDavid Spray\nWhen you do come across folks who have done some planning, are they usually more focused on the exit planning than the succession planning they are because they.\n\nMike Silverman\nHave their eye on the prize. And so they're most interested in finding out how could they can maximize the value they can attain on their exit. But it's every bit as important to a third party buyer and to you as a business owner that you have in place in the operation of your business a seamless succession plan, because we don't know when that succession plan is going to kick in and it could kick in well in advance of an exit.\n\nDavid Spray\nOkay, thank you for that. Delineation so the next question I think I'm going to direct Matt's Way, do your business owner clients, do they tend to be very proactive on their succession in exit planning or is it something that tends to fall to the bottom of the stack?\n\nMatt Clark\nMatt it tends to fall to the bottom of the stack. I mean, these are people who are very busy. They're trying to drive the business forward. And in many cases the last thing they're thinking about is exit planning or succession planning. They're thinking about kind of daily plans. And so you can think about that in our own lives, very few of us have a five year plan that we kind of put out there, much less 1020 kind of thinking, worst case scenario and best case scenario, but you don't know the date of your exit. And so it's really important to develop a plan, one to protect and maximize the value of the business. Everybody, every business owner is going to exit his or her business, whether it's voluntarily or know that great offer comes along and you weren't prepared or mike and I have had, unfortunately, the situation where a business owner had a sudden health issue and they were no longer there. And so now their family is left with the family members no longer there and the business is left without a leader and without a plan. And what that does is it really destroys the value of the business because there's no planning. The employees are left wondering what's going on and they haven't been included within it. So you need to eliminate or at least minimize the risks and liabilities associated with the business. You need to create a clear vision and goal for the owner, for the family, for those key employees that are part of the succession plan as to the direction of the business both before and after the owner's career has ended, whether again, if that's voluntarily or involuntarily. And you really need to make sure that this planning is creating an effective and efficient transition of the business upon the exit. So we'll tie on or tie into this later on. But one of the challenges for a business owner, particularly someone a founder, is they've invested or they view that business as an extension of themselves. And in many ways this actually harms the value of the Business. And that's where the really succession planning and saying, who can help you run this business if you're not here? And how do you move in that direction as part of your exit? It actually Helps once they Understand that and Realize that actually creates value in the business, it Aligns Their goals with the business Goals. And really, it helps increase everybody's value. Employees, the family, the owner.\n\nDavid Spray\nYeah. So you raise a really good point that without planning, a sudden exit can result in a dramatic reduction in the value of the business.\n\nMatt Clark\nMike and I had a client where we had been pushing to have a plan put in place. And the founder, owner, Healthy, was really driving the business. Hard didn't see a need for it and unfortunately had a heart attack and passed. And so the wife became the business owner, had no real interest in the business, had no experience with it, and there was no succession plan. And so we come in, and we're trying to help lead that through the process, whether it's identifying okay, now, after the fact, you're identifying who is the employee. Is there an employee that can lead this business at least through an exit where you haven't destroyed the value? So those are the sort of things with and we recognize and appreciate that the process itself can be time consuming in that you go through effectively. And we'll get into this due diligence on your own company, identifying where your weaknesses are, how you can approve those. Do you have somebody who can take over the business? If you don't? How do you bring that person in? Or what do you do to decouple yourself as the business owner from the operation of the business so that a buyer can look at it and say, there's real value here without this person being in the business? 24 7365 because That's Part of your exit Plan. You're Looking To actually move away from the day to day operation of The Business once You Sell?\n\nDavid Spray\nNo, that makes sense. So I know my clients tend to try to bottom line things. So would It Be inappropriate to Say to somebody who hasn't done Planning to say to Them, well, hey, if you Don't Want to do planning, that's okay. But realize that your ultimate value of the business at the exit is probably going to be half what it could have been or substantially less than it could have been. Is that any?\n\nMatt Clark\nThat's a fair mean. So mike and represent. We do a lot of exit and succession planning, but we also on acquisitions represent both buyers and sellers. And when a buyer is looking for a business, particularly if it's a financial buyer, they're saying, if I purchase this business, am I going to have to once the owner leaves, am I going to have to put in somebody who's the new CEO, president, whatever it might be? And that's an additional cost. And that person doesn't have the relationships, doesn't have the experience. And so you're now discounting the value because that all left with the owner. Even if there's a transition plan, what we recommend, and this is part of the succession and exit planning is making sure that you have the right people in place, that you can continue to have those relationships. And you can say to a buyer, hey, this is basically running on its own. This is so easy for you. I've set it up. Here's the plan, the succession, this person, when they leave or retire, I have three other people that I've been training and qualified. None of my relationships with my key vendors or customers are tied to one employee. They're not tied just to me. And so it really allows you to say, this is a turnkey business just waiting to generate income for you, just like it's done for me. And that's really of premium value.\n\nDavid Spray\nOkay.\n\nMike Silverman\nThe one thing, David, that I would augment, what Matt just said is that a lot of times we have an exit planning structure that we call an exit without an exit. And that means you have to have a perfect succession plan because once we get into the succession planning with a client, we explain to them this business has to run on automatic pilot whether you're there or not, because then a buyer has no issues with regard to your business. They know it can run whether you're on vacation for six months or not. So a lot of our clients, once they realize that when we've gone through a really well conceived succession plan with them and the owner has delegated all the control and the reins of the business to key employees and the owner can go away for six months. The owner says to himself or herself, wow. I can augment my purchase price by just hanging around for a while. So I'm not going to exit. I'm just going to collect coupons and distributions from my company, let these people run it. I'll bump up their salaries a little bit, but I'll just passively collect distributions and cash flow over the years that increase my purchase price when I eventually exit. So that just shows that how important the succession planning is and how important it is that we have a business that's transferable, that it's not dependent on the owner. The owner has delegated all those control elements of the business to key employees.\n\nDavid Spray\nYeah, I have a general sense of this because I don't know if you know who John Warlow is, the built to sell guy, but I actually went through his program a couple of years to become a certified value builder and it was so eye opening. I mean, the other big takeaway is a business that can run without you is a more fun business to own. So, I mean, when you look at it, there's really no reason to not have a business to not have the goal of having a business that runs without you. It's more valuable, it's more fun. If you have some unexpected change, it's better. Mike, when should a business owner start exiting succession planning? I guess it depends on if you have a crystal ball, right? If you have a crystal ball and you know exactly what the future holds, then you can tell them exactly when to start their planning, I guess. Right.\n\nMike Silverman\nI tell every client, and this is typically new clients because all my existing clients have done their exit and succession planning. That as Matt alluded to before. Every business owner exits from his or her business, either voluntarily or involuntarily. And as you said a minute ago, we don't have a crystal ball and we've had plenty as to whether an involuntary event like death or disability is going to occur. Involuntary events also include key employees leaving the business or key employee dying, et cetera. You can go into a free fall for things that might happen to the business owner or key employee. So I tell every new client, you can push back and delay doing the exit succession planning, but it's critical you do it today. You've spent a better part of your lifetime, significant part of your lifetime, building a very unique and valuable business, the value of which probably represents 80 or 90% of your net worth. And you need to protect that business and also ensure that whether we have an involuntary or voluntary exit, we're getting 100 cents on the dollar. We have a tax efficient exit, we have a succession plan that is seamless, that kicks in, and that all your planning is in place so that whether there's an involuntary event or a buyer comes knocking on the door tomorrow, we're ready for it. So I tell every client, we need to do this right now.\n\nDavid Spray\nYeah, that makes so, Matt, if I'm hearing you guys correctly, that everybody needs some type of an estate plan, arguably, and those with substantial assets, it's even more critical. But what I think I'm hearing you saying is that a business owner, their exit and succession plan is just as critical as their estate plan.\n\nMatt Clark\nWell, I don't want to say it's more important, but they kind of all go together. And so when you're thinking about your estate plan, you have to think about the value of your assets that are part of your estate. And so if you're saying, well, my business, I think this is my exit plan, this is what I'm going to live on, this is kind of all part of the process. You're going to maximize that value by successful and well thought out exit planning and succession planning. And so again, we would say the estate plan is part of that. But before, when you value your estate, you'd say, okay, well, what is the value of my business? So there's also a group of people and advisors that we work with, whether it's your estates and trust lawyer, the accountant, the financial planner, again, the owner and their insurance, they're all tied together for really kind of a holistic approach of exit planning, succession planning and estate planning. And they are tied together. So again, they all have to be working in conjunction and the business owner has to be realistic about all of them, but thoughtful.\n\nDavid Spray\nYeah. So I'm starting to get it that really, you could kind of say it falls under the umbrella of being financially successful in one's life. In a way, the price of that is the more financially successful one is, the more planning that's required to ensure the maximum capture of value that they've created both on the estate tax side and on the business side. And I guess the difference is somebody who's just a corporate executive, their state plan is really the heart of their issue. They don't really need the exit plan, the succession plan, because they're an employee. Okay, that makes sense. So let's talk a bit about the planning process itself. Let's get into some of the nuts and bolts, if we could, because it sounds like it's really a holistic approach. What are the different components of that planning, Matt, that comes into that? I mean, we've talked about the estate planning, the exit planning, the succession planning. Are those really the three legs of the stool or are there additional planning components beyond that that are subsets of that?\n\nMatt Clark\nThose are our key components. I'm going to throw this one over to Mike. I know this is his area on the tax planning and that is his specialty.\n\nMike Silverman\nYeah, I would say, David, that it's a very holistic effort that we go through a lot of steps. The initial step in the planning process is we want to hear from the business owner what his or her goals are. And those are personal goals, business goals and financial goals. Once we've identified that, then we can structure our planning around those goals to ensure that we achieve those goals through the succession plan and the exit plan.\n\nSo our first step once we've identified those goals is as Matt alluded to earlier, we go through a due diligence process with the business. We want to make sure the business is airtight and squeaky clean. So we literally go through with the business owner. The due diligence checklist we use when we represent a company and buying another business, because we want to go through all facets of your business, not just legal issues, but every other issue. Insurance, benefit plans, et cetera. Just everything that you would go through if your business was being acquired. We want you to look at your business from the outside in and think about what areas of your business need protection, what the value drivers are in your business that make your business unique and give you barriers to competition.\n\nWhat things we need to protect through an employment agreement, for example, that has non compete, non solicitation and confidentiality to getting a trademark on your name and logo, et cetera. We want to make sure we've identified any issues that need to be cleaned up and get you to the point where your business is airtight and squeaky clean.\n\nSo a buyer would have the shortest due diligence exercise with your business ever. Once we've gone through that, then we move on to financial planning because we want to accomplish your financial goals. So we want to get a back of the envelope number, first of all from your financial planner as to the liquid net worth that you need to have to retire under the circumstances and terms you want to retire. And so that gives us a reference point. So the second reference point, in light of the fact that a high percentage of your net worth is the value of your business, is we have your accountant do a back of the envelope net proceeds analysis of what you would get if you sold your business today after fees to professionals and investment bankers and after taxes, et cetera. And so once we know what you could net, what you could realize if you sold your business today, we compare that number to the liquid net worth number your financial planner has given us.\n\nThere's usually a huge delta between those two numbers and it puts in the bright lights for the client how much they need to increase the value of their company. So that's the first element of planning, really. The second element of planning is really growth planning. We need to work in concert with your professional advisors to develop a growth plan where we can increase the revenues, the profits and the cash flow and the value of your business so that over time we can eliminate that delta that exists between that net proceeds number that you could get today and the liquid net worth number you need.\n\nAfter we've completed the growth planning. We also put in place a contingency plan because what could interrupt the time frame for completing your growth plan is if there's an intervening event, death or disability. So we typically go about securing an appropriate amount of life insurance and sometimes disability insurance to ensure that we've insured against that contingency. After we've gone through those planning exercises, we're ready to now design the structure of your exit plan. And typically in connection with designing that structure, we're going to go through a lot of different structures with you, but we're going to also make sure what Matt alluded to earlier, we don't have barriers.\n\nThings are going to be in the way to your achieving 100 cents on the dollar right off the bat on the sale of your business. And the biggest one is typically if a high percentage of your customers are coming of your revenue is coming from one customer or your business is dependent on the owner because the owner is responsible for 70% of the revenue with the client relationships. If there's a dependency, if there's a concentration issue, we want to eliminate that. And so the structure we're designing will work seamlessly. And so we go through the different structures for the exit plan and we figure out what's the most tax efficient structure from both an income tax standpoint and then a state and gift tax standpoint. And also simultaneously is achieving all the goals that you have set out for us. And then lastly, we're creating a succession plan. What we talked about earlier for.\n\nDavid Spray\nSo thank you for that. But one thing I was thinking about is this concept. You've got the advisors, right, the estate planning attorney, the CPA, the wealth advisor, that who should be the quarterback on that. And I know a lot of wealth advisors end up taking that role because they find that they seem to have more frequent contact with the client. So they end up kind of taking that quarterback and proactive role. But as I listen to you, I wonder if you all should actually be in that quarterback role. And here's why I say that. Because if 80% of the client's net worth is in the business, then that's really what's driving everything, right? That's the biggest asset in the estate plan. That's the biggest asset from the financial planning. So I'm guessing that you don't just do this exit and succession planning, kind of wash your hands of it, give it to them and say, hey, if something changes, call me. Or if you're ready to sell your business, give me a call. Are you all more involved on an ongoing basis than what I might first have imagined? Matt, what are your thoughts there? I asked several questions at once.\n\nMatt Clark\nThere no I think let me step back. I was going to say after Mike talked about the planning process and the Holistic approach, I think the answer is mean. These are clients that we work with on a regular basis and so we understand their needs and issues and risks. There is a regular check in. The only way these plans are successful is if you're checking in against them to make sure that the client is moving forward correctly or that you have to reevaluate if something comes up. That's all part of it. Maybe their goals have changed, their needs have changed. There has to be a discussion on that. We work and I wouldn't say while we take the lead on that, on the planning, we are working with each of these areas, whether it's these experts, whether it's the accountant, the financial planner, insurance. We want to have a collegial relationship where it's viewed as truly a team that we're all there on behalf of the owner to make sure that their plans and their needs are met. And so you're right. I think if 80% of the value of the company or excuse me, the owner's assets are driven by the company, and we're working with that company day in and day out, whether it's on their commercial agreements, their benefit plans, just general advice and guidance. We're there for our clients. We will help them dealing with their financial planner, the accountant insurance. It's across the board. But we're mindful that it does take a team approach so that the clients needs are met.\n\nMike Silverman\nOkay, David, I would augment that by saying that one thing that falls through the cracks is that a typical business owner has excellent advisors, but excellent advisors. And getting a really well conceived exit plan and succession plan done are two different things, in my experience at least. I think that the advisors, number one, are not proactive with getting the exit and succession planning done. And secondarily, they don't coordinate with each other on this topic. And then lastly, they don't necessarily have the experience. I mean, you need to have done many dozens, if not over 100 exit plans so that you're really well versed in all the particulars of a client's fact situation and you can design the exactly right exit plan. So having a great team of advisors and getting a great exit plan done are two different concepts. So I think it's good to have as your quarterback somebody who's done a lot of exit plans and succession plans in their career.\n\nDavid Spray\nNow that makes sense. And I wasn't thinking about the ongoing commercial aspects of the business that they can reach out to you on contracts and other stuff. So help me understand what would be, from your perspective, a textbook client engagement where you all can really add maximum value. Let's say we have a business that's got a $20 million enterprise value, single shareholder gentleman in his 40s. What would kind of the ideal situation look like? Are you proactively meeting annually, quarterly? And then what other aspects of the commercial legal situation are you guys set up to handle? I'm guessing all the transactional contract type stuff that you all can be a resource, is that correct?\n\nMike Silverman\nYeah, I'd like Matt to weigh in on it as well. But from my vantage point, once we've designed the exit plan and the succession plan, it takes a long time to implement it. The growth plan takes quite a long time to implement. So we're in contact on a monthly basis, sometimes more frequently than that because we want to stay on the client because these things can drift if you're not in contact with the client, things don't get done necessarily. So we can build the engine, but then we got to fuel it. And so we're in contact with them on the implementation until it's done, and then we're working with them on all the things I talked about before with the due diligence effort, we want to make sure that you're building on once we've done that. So we want to keep you airtight and squeaky clean and help you. To grow.\n\nDavid Spray\nAnd Matt, what else might you add to that?\n\nMatt Clark\nYeah, I think we become part of the generally, these clients, they don't have in house counsel, and so we become their general counsel for their business. We're there for daily advice and guidance, whatever they need. And it's really all aspects of their business we're able to assist them with and try to give them advice and guidance. Understand now that we have a clear understanding of kind of their vision, their plan, where they want to be, our goal is really to help them to get there in every aspect, whether that's, again, even on the hiring of employees, if they want our advice. I know that Mike and I have sat in on interviews when they're interviewing key employees for their business because that's part of our role, if that owner wants us to be involved in that. So we really become part of the management team and we're tied at the hip with the owner. Our goals are aligned with theirs.\n\nDavid Spray\nYeah. And you're helping me kind of better understand this because of the due diligence you're doing on the front end, you have a better understanding of their business than if they just say, hey, I need to have a contract drafted, and they ask their golfing buddy, who should I call? They call up the attorney. Like, I need a contract. An attorney. In that isolated basis, it would be much more difficult for them to provide contextual advice right. Without understanding the whole situation. Yeah.\n\nMatt Clark\nYou don't know if that client is going to be the key client or if it's just kind of a one off or what their risk tolerance is, where they are in the process. Kind of the lifespan of the company. Are they looking to have an exit in two years, five years, ten years? It's just kind of in the abstract. And so, again, we're happy we work with clients in that way, but what we really enjoy is helping them plan for their future success of the company and then helping them drive that success.\n\nDavid Spray\nYeah, that makes sense. And it sounds like you guys frequently work as a team serving your clients. Could you help me understand the roles you all play in that teamwork? And I guess the other benefit is there's a lot of overlap too. Right. So from the client's perspective, they're also reducing their key attorney risk right. By having two of you that know their situation. So, Matt, when a client asks you, hey, why do I need two of you? Isn't it cheaper for me just to have one of you? How do you answer that question as far as how you guys work together and the expertise you bring?\n\nMatt Clark\nWell, first off, I'd say we complement each other. My practice is a corporate general practice and an M and a practice. I did work eleven years in house at a variety of companies, and I've worked with early stage companies all the way up to publicly traded companies. And so I think I have a really good vision of what it looks like for a company to grow the day in, day out needs of a company. I can be the client's in house counsel, but I'm their outside advisor as so, you know, the one thing I'd say is the client is never going to pay for Mike and I at the same time. We have this arrangement where we're both on a call with the client. One of us is not going to bill. They just don't experience that we understand the needs of the client and what I really call value based billing, they understand and have to feel like they're getting value for what we provide. And we think we really do provide value to our clients both short term and really with the planning long term. And that's our goal. We want clients that are going to be, that will be their counsel, not just for the review of one contract, but to help them grow their business and really look back and say, that was really great working with you. Let me give you the name of I'm going to tell one of my friends, my colleagues, somebody I know, they should work with Mike Silverman or Matt Clark. And so that's ultimately and with denton's.\n\nDavid Spray\nAnd so that's what we look, you know, I thought I've got a pretty good understanding know, the roles that all the advisors play, but you guys kind of just keep throwing me for a loop here, because when I think of an M A advisor, I think of a very transactionally focused advisor, where a substantial portion of the lifetime value of that client comes from that single transaction. And thus, by necessity, it seems like they need to really maximize the value of that client. But what I hear you guys saying is you take a different approach. You take a long term approach to the relationship, and because you're taking that long term approach, you don't have to bill for both of your time every time you're on a call. And so in the long run, if you think about it from like an hourly cost, the client's actually paying less in the long run because so it's like a two way street, right? If the client says, hey, I want you guys to be part of my long term team, in exchange for that kind of long term commitment, you're able to be able to take a long term perspective and not be hyper focused on how much revenue that client delivered this month. Does that sound right, Mike? Yeah.\n\nMike Silverman\nAnother example of that, too, is most clients think that a sale to a third party buyer, a strategic buyer, whatever, is nirvana. That's the best possible exit structure for them. And it's a great exit structure for a law firm and an accounting firm and an investment banker because it generates enormous fees for all of those professionals. I can tell you that only a small percentage of the exit plans that Matt and I do involve a third party buyer. Most of them are a different structure where the revenue that is paid to the professional advisors is a fraction of what they'd paid if they did a third party sale. So we do what's best for the client, and there's a parade of horribles that the client isn't aware of until you delineate it for them associated with a third party sale. And we can get you typically 100 cents on the dollar with a different structure, whereas with a third party sale, there's a lot of different results that might be obtained.\n\nDavid Spray\nYeah, and I want to talk a bit more about that because when I heard you on Lori's podcast a year and a half ago, that really intrigued me. But back to the question as far as what roles you and Matt serve when working together as a team. So it sounds like like it sounds like he has more buy side experience from large Acquisitive companies. Is that accurate? And you've got more of a focus on the tax consequences or help me understand the delineation.\n\nMike Silverman\nMatt is very strong as a corporate lawyer, and he's got a significant buy side and sell side practice on the M A front. I have no M A component to my practice. My practice is strictly general corporate tax and exit succession planning. And so but we complement each other, as Matt mentioned earlier.\n\nDavid Spray\nI see. No, thank you for that clarification. Now that makes even more sense to me. So what I would like to do is I'd like to kind of shift gears and talk about the whole concept of internal sales ESOPs. And again, from your interview with Lori, it just really resonated with me that of all of the benefits of an internal sale and quite frankly, I really rarely hear M A attorneys talking about. So just talk to me a bit more about why do you never hear about internal sales? It's like the thing you always hear is there's a financial buyer or there's a strategic buyer. You always want the strategic because they'll pay a premium. And that's kind of the end of the story. And due diligence is going to be horrible, and the buyer will retrade at the last minute and a lot of a significant portion of the deals never close after months of painful due diligence. But there's a third way. So why don't you talk to us, Mike, about some of the benefits of, I guess what I'd call the third way.\n\nMike Silverman\nOkay, well, as a preface to describing the indirect acquisition or internal transaction, I think that the reason you hear about it so little is that M A lawyers, corporate lawyers, they're driven. I mean, it's almost automatic pilot for them to drive you to a third party sale because that's what they know that's where their experience lies. Their experience lies with working with an investment banker and getting the highest amount and as many cents on the dollar closing as they can and so forth. And unless you're a pretty experienced exit planner, you're not going to be at all familiar with an internal transaction.\nAnd so what I say to every client to dissuade them, to get them to look at an internal transaction is I said, here's the pros and cons of a sale to a third party buyer. If you sell to a third party buyer, the big pro to me is an investment banker is going to find you a strategic buyer that's going to pay you more than the fair market value of your business. So that's a big pro. The cons that I have with a third party sale and as I referred to them before, it's kind of the parade of horribles is number one, you're going to pay large professional fees to a law firm, an accounting firm, and a very big fee to an investment banker. I mean, you're talking high six figures, maybe seven figures in fees for those items. Number two, you're going to have a purchase agreement that has 25 representations and warranties about your business that you have liability for.\nAnd you're going to hit in that agreement an indemnification section that makes you liable for up to 100% of the purchase price. So when you close on the sale of your business, you're not sleeping all that well at night with those two factors at work.\n\nDavid Spray\nAnd the third one that bothers me a lot is you typically don't get 100 cents on the dollar. There's typically a promissory note or there's contingent purchase price, which we call an earn out that's dependent on the business achieving certain milestones down the road, and someone else is running your business relative to those milestones now. So I don't like any of those dynamics. I want to come up with a structure. I like to implement a structure that eliminates all those things, the fees, the earn out payments, the deferred purchase price, et cetera. So the structure that I use that I refer to as an indirect acquisition is a lot of my business owners are very loyal to their key employees.\n\nDavid Spray\nAnd what they tell me is, in a perfect world, I'd like to transition this business to the management team, to the key employees who have gotten me to where I am right now. And I want to incent them to facilitate my exit from this company. They don't have the wherewithal to take out a loan, guarantee a loan. They don't have the cash in their pockets to buy me out. So how can we do this? What my structure is, it's three simple steps.\n\nDavid Spray\nI have the business owner exchange his or her shares of stock in the company, which I call a recapitalization for shares, for a small number of voting shares and a large number of non voting shares. So after that step, the shareholder or the business owner might have three voting shares and 997 non voting shares. Step one. Step two is we identify in the succession plan who are the key employees of the business who drive it right now and who we want to incent to drive it in the future, drive the value and the cash flow in the future.\n\nDavid Spray\nAnd we're going to grant to them a small percentage of the non voting stock in the company, maybe 3-4-5 something like that. And we're going to tie to that a very long vesting schedule so that they won't vest in it for maybe a ten year period. And I tend to use a cliff vesting schedule. So unless and until you've given us ten years of sweat equity, you don't vest in this stock we've granted to you, you own it, but it's subject to forfeiture if you leave in the next ten years.\n\nDavid Spray\nLet me just be clear. So a cliff is opposed to like a pro rada where exactly? If it's a ten year schedule, say they earn 10% because of the cliff, that gives the employer more ultimate power, I guess, over that. Yeah.\n\nDavid Spray\nThe two problems I have with the prorata vesting are number one, the key employee could walk out the door after four years and they're 40% vested and that doesn't sync up with the exit schedule for the owner. So that's not helpful to me. I want the timeline for that vesting schedule to sync up so the owner can be fully bought out by the time you're vested. So you're either all in with your sweat equity or you're not. And this is also a tremendous incentive tool with the key employees because the third step is we enter into a shareholder agreement between the business owner and the key employees who got that 3% of the stock. And that agreement says that the business owner has a right, a put right, meaning he or she has the right to require the company to buy a certain percentage of his shares over time. And so as those shares are purchased by the company through the cash flow that these key employees are generating, little by little, the owner's percentage is going down and the key employees are rising from three and 5% to 20% and ultimately to 100%. So the structure, if you think about it, creates a win win environment. It's a huge win for the business owner because that owner stays in control of the company with the voting shares till the bitter end, until all of his or her non voting shares have been purchased by the company. Number two, they don't have any of the cost downside risks associated with a third party sale. They're going to get 100 cents on the dollar and oftentimes the fair market. We have the purchase price equal to a floor value or the then current fair market value. So they may get in excess of 100 cents on the dollar. And the owner also gets to achieve his or her goal of transitioning the business to his management, his or her management team. On the flip side, it's a win for the key employees because they're not paying for the business. The cash flow of the business is buying out the business owner and they gradually, just by contributing their sweat equity, are going from 5% to owning the business in total over time. So the structure creates a huge win for both sides and we eliminate all the prey to horribles I talked about with a third party sale.\n\nDavid Spray\nYeah. And this is usually what you're describing. Is it usually using an ESOP structure?\n\nDavid Spray\nSometimes it's an ESOP, sometimes not. I'm a big fan of ESOPs, ESOPs as a tax lawyer, it's the last safe haven I have in the Internal Revenue Code, frankly. And so an ESOP I use in my exit planning quite a bit. My 1st 25 years of practice, I did very few ESOPs the last few years of my practice. I mean, we're working on three ESOPs right now. The acronym just stands for Employee Stock Ownership Plan. And that's a qualified retirement plan. And so we can set up a qualified retirement plan to buy some or all of the shares in a company from the business owner. And there's enormous benefits to doing that. The typical business owner owns a flow through entity for tax purposes, an S corporation or an LLC tax as a partnership. And so if we have an ESOP buying an ownership interest in a flow through entity, let's just say that the ESOP buys 50% of the stock in an S corporation from a business owner. Now, all of a sudden, 50% of the income of that entity is tax exempt. We don't have to pay taxes on.\n\nDavid Spray\nIt anymore because the ESOP owns that 50%.\n\nDavid Spray\nYeah, and the ESOP is a tax exempt qualified plan. And so the ESOP gives us a lot of benefits in the exit planning sphere because number one, the cash flow of the business is going to go up significantly because tax dollars are no longer being paid ever again to the state or federal governments. Number two, the owners of the beneficiaries of that ESOP are the employees of the company. So now, all of a sudden, you've created an incredible incentive compensation tool to retain your current employees and incent them to grow the value of the business as well as a recruitment tool, because you can tell every new employee that comes aboard. You're going to be a beneficiary of this ESOP, and you're going to be an indirect owner of the company. That's why Anderson Window Company, for example, says they're employee owned, they're owned by an ESOP. And so their employees are very proud and very happy to be owners of Anderson Window Company, which is a big valuable company that obviously was owned by a business owner one day, and it got sold to an ESOP. So ESOPs are a big part of our practice as well.\n\nDavid Spray\nIsn't there another benefit to an ESOP that's like, similar to a 1031 exchange?\n\nDavid Spray\nYeah, there's another code, section 1042, that says if you sell stock in a C corporation to an ESOP, then you can take the proceeds and redeploy them in the stock market, and you don't have to pay tax on those proceeds. You can defer your gain recognition as long as you hold those publicly traded securities in which you've invested the sale proceeds. Once you ultimately sell those publicly traded securities, then you pay your gains, but you could hold those securities for a long time. You could hold them till death and get a basis, step up in them and never pay tax. So 1042 gives you an advantage. If you're a C corporation, you sell stock to an ESOP.\n\nDavid Spray\nSo, ma'am, this has been so much fun, and I still have a bunch of questions. We may have to just have a round two, but I always love some success stories. And so help me understand kind of what kind of an ideal client looks like for you all. I'm guessing a half million dollar revenue solopreneur is probably not the right fit. Or maybe the other way to look at it is maybe each of you give an anonymous client sort of success story. And maybe through that we can kind of illustrate what the kind of typical clients like. Matt, why don't you go first? When people say, hey, what's the perfect company for you guys? What are the attributes that you think you can really add a lot of value to a company?\n\nMatt Clark\nSo I have a client that I helped form the client and again, very early stage in a somewhat niche market and set up the company. Asked him what his kind of went through the exit and succession planning to make sure that as he grew his business and he literally started with four employees and within five years had 30 employees was in a really attractive market. But part of his goal was he wanted to truly exit the business and didn't want to be in it any longer. And he was looking to just truly maximize his value, understanding he might be willing to stay on for six months at the most. And so we went through, we helped him set up his benefit plans. We made sure that his IP was protected. It's really important, both trademark and here. He had some patents he was selling us and internationally. We made sure that he was complying on his export compliance. We made sure since he was selling both at his location in Pennsylvania, but he was also selling outside of Pennsylvania, that his tax regiment, that he wasn't going to be hit with sales and use tax and failure to pay that in all of the jurisdictions in which he was supposed to. And so we look at clients and say, we're going to help you grow your business from two or three employees to an exit that is upper seven figures. I mean, it was a great within a short time period. And then this is somebody who is, to be candid, young enough that once his non compete runs out, he will be back to us. We've set up his estate planning and so he's coming back to us already and saying, what if I want to invest in real estate? What if I want to invest? And so we're coordinating with his financial planner, with his accountant, with his insurance, and we continue to do that post exit. And so it's really a case of the plan worked and then are we continuing to help him plan moving forward, as he says? Although I left that business, we found that entrepreneurs are entrepreneurs and founders are founders and they might take some time off, but they're going to come back. And so, again, that's the long term where Mike and I work with these clients. And it's not just I'll call it transactional one transaction. It's really looking at kind of the long term and working. He has a family. We've set up the family trust for him. And so it's a relationship that I expect that will last for ten to 20 years.\n\nDavid Spray\nThat's great. I love examples. Mike, do you have an example, a client success story example, that you could just tell us a bit about the company?\n\nMike Silverman\nYeah, I can give you, actually two very different ones that I can describe very quickly. Actually. One was an exit plan where I used that very internal transaction that I just spoke about. This was way back in 2007, where basically we put in place the structure I described and the husband and wife who owned the business, they cashed out way back in 2007, maybe at $6 million, by gradually having the company buy their shares. So the management team succeeded back then to the ownership of the company. And fast forward to today. The management team is going to sell the business for, I think, about 23 million. So the business has gone way up in value. That management team didn't pay a nickel. They just contributed their sweat equity all along and stuck with the plan. So it was a good exit for the husband and wife. They were very happy with getting 100 cents on the dollar way back when. And the management team is thrilled to be selling the business today.\n\nDavid Spray\nFor four times what they paid for it.\n\nMike Silverman\nBasically, yeah, four times. So they grew. I mean, the number of employees and the revenue and everything just skyrocketed. So that's part of the explanation for the soaring in value. A very different transaction was I got referred to a seller who owned a C corporation, and I represented him in selling his stock. This is back in 2014 to an ESOP, and ESOP was buying all the stock in the company. And I didn't represent the company or the ESOP, so I represented the seller. And the purchase price was not that large. It was only $4 million, I think. And the company took on debt of, I think, 3 million and used cash on the balance sheet to fund the other million. After the transaction was completed, the company came to me and said they'd like me to be their counsel. And so I immediately told them, we got to convert you from a C Corp. To an S Corporation. So you're a flow through entity, and all your income will flow into a tax exempt vehicle. That factor alone has caused the company to I mean, the company is still in place. It's owned by an ESOP, and all the employees are beneficiaries of that ESOP, and the employee ranks have grown quite a bit since 14. But the value of that company today, because the ESOP has to go through an annual valuation, it's like $21 million. So the company has grown fivefold since 2014, and the biggest factor in that is 40% of their cash flow is being retained. It's not going to the tax authorities anymore. So that, to me, is a real success story just by making an S election in that structure.\n\nDavid Spray\nWow, this has been such a content rich show. Like I said, I may want to have you guys come back in a few months and go into some other things. But with that we're approaching an hour. Why don't I just let you guys kind of each give any parting advice you may have for business owners as it relates to exit and succession planning? And Matt, why don't we let you go first? And Mike, why don't we let you take us down the home stretch?\n\nMatt Clark\nI think exit and succession planning is I think there's a saying, the best time to plant a tree was 20 years ago. The second best time is today. And I think exit and succession planning is the same way. The best time was when you first started the business, but the next best time is today. And so to the extent you haven't started, now is the time. It's never going to get easier if you look forward and say, well, give me six months. Give me twelve months. And Mike and I have heard that, and we really encourage our clients today is that six months. You don't know what the future holds, but why don't we put some contingency planning around it and help you build the value of your business and be that kind of crutch for you that you can count on and rely on to execute on that? So we're here for our clients, and ultimately, we're here to make sure that they meet their goals. And the best time to do that is today.\n\nDavid Spray\nAnd how do they start that process? Just give you a call or send you an email.\n\nMatt Clark\nYeah, it's just reaching out. And then we set up a series of meetings and kind of walk through. It's a time consuming the first item is the diligence. Well, I think, Michael, the first thing is understanding what their needs are, their goals are, and then understanding about the business, if it's an existing business going through and doing diligence on it to make sure that we understand where the issues are and then have a very candid conversation of what they think the issues and risks are to their business. Most business owners know. I mean, they really do understand what the weaknesses are and what they need to do. It's hard sometimes to kind of open up on that.\n\nDavid Spray\nHow does that work in terms of the cost? Do you guys do a preliminary phone call at no cost just to kind of get to know one another?\n\nMatt Clark\nHow do you all absolutely in the beginning for those the initial meeting and call, and there's no expense for that. We don't charge for that. Again, we look at things long term. It's a marathon, it's not a sprint. And so we're not looking to make our fees on those calls. The ultimate is we want to build a long term relationship with the business owner and the company and really build that relationship for 510, 20 years. Whether they sell that business and they look to enter into a new business or their future endeavors, we want to be there with them.\n\nDavid Spray\nOkay, now that sounds good. Mike, what's your parting advice?\n\nMike Silverman\nWell, at the risk of bombarding you with trite expressions, I'm a big fan of the expression yesterday is history, tomorrow is a mystery, and today is a gift. And that's why it's called the present. So there's no time like the present for getting your exit and succession plan done. It's imperative because you don't know what the future holds. And the thing that I noticed about all the exit and succession plans that we do is the business owner starts out by saying, this is something I have to do, just like an estate plan. But as they do it, they really enjoy it. They learn a lot about their business. They're looking at their business from the outside in and they get enthralled and engrossed with it, and they enjoy the process. And when we get the process completed, they have a sense of comfort and they have a sense of accomplishment. So it's something that initially you say, it's something I got to do, but it's actually not a burden. It's something that you should embrace and then enjoy. It's an opportunity, it's not a burden.\n\nDavid Spray\nThat's a really good point. Yeah, because you said it well, I don't really have anything more to add. Well, guys, this has really been fun. And this is only the second time I've had two guests at the same time. And the last time. Was a law firm as well. It was two attorneys who had substantial IC disc experience, so well, again, I really appreciate your time. I'll have your contact info in the show notes if anyone wants to reach out to you and any parting words from you guys before we wrap up.\n\nDavid Spray\nWhat was that, Matt?\n\nMatt Clark\nThanks, David, for having us.\n\nDavid Spray\nOh, sure. It was my pleasure. There's a lot of great stuff here, so let's go ahead and wrap it up. I'm not sure why my recording is not stopped. Let me just.Special Guests: Matthew Clark and Mike Silverman.","content_html":"Today on the IC-DISC Podcast, I spoke with Mike Silverman and Matt Clark, two attorneys specializing in exit planning and succession planning for business owners. They explained that exit planning is all about planning when an owner wants to leave the company, while succession planning identifies future leaders within the business. Both are crucial since you need a strategy for expected and unexpected departures.
\n\nMike and Matt stressed meeting regularly so these plans stay on track and don't cause disruption. They also talked about having a whole team involved beyond just lawyers, with experts in different fields all working together towards long-term goals.
\n\nThe overall message I got from listening was planning early, working with professionals with experience like Matt and Mike, and sticking with the process to ensure that transitions go smoothly for everyone.
\n\n\n\n
SHOW HIGHLIGHTS
\n\n![](\"https://assets.fireside.fm/file/fireside-images/podcasts/images/d/d61cedee-227d-47c8-8d74-3407972d4afc/guests/f/faaa2405-4c44-47ad-95c0-80ea8534699d/avatar_small.jpg?v=2\"){kind=avatar} | \nMike Silverman | \n
![](\"https://assets.fireside.fm/file/fireside-images/podcasts/images/d/d61cedee-227d-47c8-8d74-3407972d4afc/guests/9/9cae1efa-ae3d-4bbe-bb43-257178e2c2fb/avatar_small.jpg?v=2\"){kind=avatar} | \nMatthew Clark | \n
(AI transcript provided as supporting material and may contain errors)
\n\nDavid Spray
\nHi, my name is David Spray, and welcome to another episode of The Icdisc Show. I have a really unique episode today because I have two guests on simultaneously. That's Matt Clark and Mike Silverman. They are both attorneys at the law firm of Denton's, and they're both in the Pittsburgh office. And they have a unique practice around exit planning and succession planning. But it has very much a planning focus rather than a traditional M, a practice that seems to have more of a transactional focus. We talk about all kinds of things around planning, the need for regular meetings to implement succession and exit planning. And we also talk about how ESOPs employee stock ownership plans are one of the best deals in the tax code. That's incredibly underutilized for exit planning. Mike talks in great detail about some of the benefits of ESOP. So this is a great episode for any business owner or key executive at a privately held company to consider. So I hope you enjoy this episode as much as I did. Good morning, gentlemen. How are you all doing today? Good morning.
David Spray
\nVery well.
David Spray
\nGood morning.
Mike Silverman
\nFantastic.
\nHow are you doing, David?
David Spray
\n I am doing great, thank you. Well, I've really been looking forward to this interview because you guys really have some great experience that I think will really benefit clients of mine, as well as just listeners to the podcast. So why don't we just kick off with a little background. Matt, why don't we start with you? Oh, by the way, you guys are calling from Pittsburgh today. Both of you, correct?
\nThat's correct.
Okay, so, Matt, let's start off with you. Are you a Pittsburgh native?
\n\nMatt Clark
\nNo, I'm actually a native outside of I grew up outside of Philadelphia and made my way to Pittsburgh 30 plus years ago. And I call Pittsburgh home now. I went to Duquesne University for undergrad and then law school. My practice is corporate practice. I work with entrepreneurs and business owners and various areas, but a big part of it is part of their exit planning, and succession planning is a big part of our practice. And so I get to work with fantastic colleagues like Mike, who is certified, but in exit planning and succession planning. And so we just have a fantastic team based in Pittsburgh. But I'm with Denton's. We're the largest law firm in the world, and so we have the ability to work with clients on a truly a global basis to make sure that we're meeting and fulfilling all of their legal needs.
David Spray
\nGreat. That's great. Well, thank you for that quick background. Now. What about you, Mike? Are you a native Pittsburgh bergonian what's the term?
Mike Silverman
\nI think they call them Pittsburgh.
David Spray
\nOkay.
Mike Silverman
\nBut yes, I'm born and bred, have always lived here in Pittsburgh. I grew up in the eastern suburbs. I went to college in Baltimore at Johns Hopkins University. I got my law degree at University of Pittsburgh, and then I got a master's in tax law after law school at New York University Law School. And like Matt, I'm a business attorney and I represent middle market companies throughout the lifecycle of a business, and succession planning isn't a very significant part of my legal practice.
David Spray
\nOkay, that's great. And do you have an accounting undergrad graduate degree?
Mike Silverman
\n No, undergrad. Odly, enough. I was an engineering major undergrad. I thought I was going to become my patent lawyer, but I fell in love with my tax courses in law school, so I went a different route.
David Spray
\nOkay, well, sounds good. So one of the things that is I've gotten to know you guys that I've learned is I had a misconception that exit planning and succession planning were basically the same thing. But as I've learned more about this, there appears to really be a significant difference. Mike, why don't you share with the audience how you delineate between exit planning and succession planning?
Mike Silverman
\nWell, ever y new corporate client that I get, I ask them the rhetorical question of whether they've done their exit planning and succession planning, and the answer invariably is no. And they also have this misconception that you referred to that exit planning and succession planning are redundant with one another. And that is a misconception because they're totally discreet. Exit planning is the planning exercise we go through to identify the structure under which a business owner is going to exit from his or her business. And there's a lot involved with developing that structure. We'll talk about it during the course of the podcast, but we want to do a deep dive into your business to figure out what your goals are personal goals, financial goals, business goals, and then figure out what kind of exit structure facilitates those goals and enables you to achieve those goals. Succession planning is very different. Succession planning, what we're going to do there is to identify who are the key employees in the operation of a business. And then once we've identified those individuals, we have to identify who their successors are going to be. Are there people that are coming up through the ranks in the company, or do we have to go out and recruit people laterally so that we don't have a drop off if an employee leaves or gets hit by a bus, et cetera. But regardless of how business owner is going to exit from his or her business, we want to make sure we have very seamless and tax efficient structures in place for both the exit plan as well as the succession plan.
David Spray
\nIs succession planning a subset of exit planning, or is exit planning a subset of succession planning, or are they parallel tracks?
Mike Silverman
\nThey're parallel tracks. They're totally distinct from one another, and they're not linked together at all.
\nIt's important you do both. You can't do one without the other, in my view.
David Spray
\nWhen you do come across folks who have done some planning, are they usually more focused on the exit planning than the succession planning they are because they.
Mike Silverman
\nHave their eye on the prize. And so they're most interested in finding out how could they can maximize the value they can attain on their exit. But it's every bit as important to a third party buyer and to you as a business owner that you have in place in the operation of your business a seamless succession plan, because we don't know when that succession plan is going to kick in and it could kick in well in advance of an exit.
David Spray
\nOkay, thank you for that. Delineation so the next question I think I'm going to direct Matt's Way, do your business owner clients, do they tend to be very proactive on their succession in exit planning or is it something that tends to fall to the bottom of the stack?
Matt Clark
\nMatt it tends to fall to the bottom of the stack. I mean, these are people who are very busy. They're trying to drive the business forward. And in many cases the last thing they're thinking about is exit planning or succession planning. They're thinking about kind of daily plans. And so you can think about that in our own lives, very few of us have a five year plan that we kind of put out there, much less 1020 kind of thinking, worst case scenario and best case scenario, but you don't know the date of your exit. And so it's really important to develop a plan, one to protect and maximize the value of the business. Everybody, every business owner is going to exit his or her business, whether it's voluntarily or know that great offer comes along and you weren't prepared or mike and I have had, unfortunately, the situation where a business owner had a sudden health issue and they were no longer there. And so now their family is left with the family members no longer there and the business is left without a leader and without a plan. And what that does is it really destroys the value of the business because there's no planning. The employees are left wondering what's going on and they haven't been included within it. So you need to eliminate or at least minimize the risks and liabilities associated with the business. You need to create a clear vision and goal for the owner, for the family, for those key employees that are part of the succession plan as to the direction of the business both before and after the owner's career has ended, whether again, if that's voluntarily or involuntarily. And you really need to make sure that this planning is creating an effective and efficient transition of the business upon the exit. So we'll tie on or tie into this later on. But one of the challenges for a business owner, particularly someone a founder, is they've invested or they view that business as an extension of themselves. And in many ways this actually harms the value of the Business. And that's where the really succession planning and saying, who can help you run this business if you're not here? And how do you move in that direction as part of your exit? It actually Helps once they Understand that and Realize that actually creates value in the business, it Aligns Their goals with the business Goals. And really, it helps increase everybody's value. Employees, the family, the owner.
David Spray
\nYeah. So you raise a really good point that without planning, a sudden exit can result in a dramatic reduction in the value of the business.
Matt Clark
\nMike and I had a client where we had been pushing to have a plan put in place. And the founder, owner, Healthy, was really driving the business. Hard didn't see a need for it and unfortunately had a heart attack and passed. And so the wife became the business owner, had no real interest in the business, had no experience with it, and there was no succession plan. And so we come in, and we're trying to help lead that through the process, whether it's identifying okay, now, after the fact, you're identifying who is the employee. Is there an employee that can lead this business at least through an exit where you haven't destroyed the value? So those are the sort of things with and we recognize and appreciate that the process itself can be time consuming in that you go through effectively. And we'll get into this due diligence on your own company, identifying where your weaknesses are, how you can approve those. Do you have somebody who can take over the business? If you don't? How do you bring that person in? Or what do you do to decouple yourself as the business owner from the operation of the business so that a buyer can look at it and say, there's real value here without this person being in the business? 24 7365 because That's Part of your exit Plan. You're Looking To actually move away from the day to day operation of The Business once You Sell?
David Spray
\nNo, that makes sense. So I know my clients tend to try to bottom line things. So would It Be inappropriate to Say to somebody who hasn't done Planning to say to Them, well, hey, if you Don't Want to do planning, that's okay. But realize that your ultimate value of the business at the exit is probably going to be half what it could have been or substantially less than it could have been. Is that any?
Matt Clark
\nThat's a fair mean. So mike and represent. We do a lot of exit and succession planning, but we also on acquisitions represent both buyers and sellers. And when a buyer is looking for a business, particularly if it's a financial buyer, they're saying, if I purchase this business, am I going to have to once the owner leaves, am I going to have to put in somebody who's the new CEO, president, whatever it might be? And that's an additional cost. And that person doesn't have the relationships, doesn't have the experience. And so you're now discounting the value because that all left with the owner. Even if there's a transition plan, what we recommend, and this is part of the succession and exit planning is making sure that you have the right people in place, that you can continue to have those relationships. And you can say to a buyer, hey, this is basically running on its own. This is so easy for you. I've set it up. Here's the plan, the succession, this person, when they leave or retire, I have three other people that I've been training and qualified. None of my relationships with my key vendors or customers are tied to one employee. They're not tied just to me. And so it really allows you to say, this is a turnkey business just waiting to generate income for you, just like it's done for me. And that's really of premium value.
David Spray
\nOkay.
Mike Silverman
\nThe one thing, David, that I would augment, what Matt just said is that a lot of times we have an exit planning structure that we call an exit without an exit. And that means you have to have a perfect succession plan because once we get into the succession planning with a client, we explain to them this business has to run on automatic pilot whether you're there or not, because then a buyer has no issues with regard to your business. They know it can run whether you're on vacation for six months or not. So a lot of our clients, once they realize that when we've gone through a really well conceived succession plan with them and the owner has delegated all the control and the reins of the business to key employees and the owner can go away for six months. The owner says to himself or herself, wow. I can augment my purchase price by just hanging around for a while. So I'm not going to exit. I'm just going to collect coupons and distributions from my company, let these people run it. I'll bump up their salaries a little bit, but I'll just passively collect distributions and cash flow over the years that increase my purchase price when I eventually exit. So that just shows that how important the succession planning is and how important it is that we have a business that's transferable, that it's not dependent on the owner. The owner has delegated all those control elements of the business to key employees.
David Spray
\nYeah, I have a general sense of this because I don't know if you know who John Warlow is, the built to sell guy, but I actually went through his program a couple of years to become a certified value builder and it was so eye opening. I mean, the other big takeaway is a business that can run without you is a more fun business to own. So, I mean, when you look at it, there's really no reason to not have a business to not have the goal of having a business that runs without you. It's more valuable, it's more fun. If you have some unexpected change, it's better. Mike, when should a business owner start exiting succession planning? I guess it depends on if you have a crystal ball, right? If you have a crystal ball and you know exactly what the future holds, then you can tell them exactly when to start their planning, I guess. Right.
Mike Silverman
\nI tell every client, and this is typically new clients because all my existing clients have done their exit and succession planning. That as Matt alluded to before. Every business owner exits from his or her business, either voluntarily or involuntarily. And as you said a minute ago, we don't have a crystal ball and we've had plenty as to whether an involuntary event like death or disability is going to occur. Involuntary events also include key employees leaving the business or key employee dying, et cetera. You can go into a free fall for things that might happen to the business owner or key employee. So I tell every new client, you can push back and delay doing the exit succession planning, but it's critical you do it today. You've spent a better part of your lifetime, significant part of your lifetime, building a very unique and valuable business, the value of which probably represents 80 or 90% of your net worth. And you need to protect that business and also ensure that whether we have an involuntary or voluntary exit, we're getting 100 cents on the dollar. We have a tax efficient exit, we have a succession plan that is seamless, that kicks in, and that all your planning is in place so that whether there's an involuntary event or a buyer comes knocking on the door tomorrow, we're ready for it. So I tell every client, we need to do this right now.
David Spray
\nYeah, that makes so, Matt, if I'm hearing you guys correctly, that everybody needs some type of an estate plan, arguably, and those with substantial assets, it's even more critical. But what I think I'm hearing you saying is that a business owner, their exit and succession plan is just as critical as their estate plan.
Matt Clark
\nWell, I don't want to say it's more important, but they kind of all go together. And so when you're thinking about your estate plan, you have to think about the value of your assets that are part of your estate. And so if you're saying, well, my business, I think this is my exit plan, this is what I'm going to live on, this is kind of all part of the process. You're going to maximize that value by successful and well thought out exit planning and succession planning. And so again, we would say the estate plan is part of that. But before, when you value your estate, you'd say, okay, well, what is the value of my business? So there's also a group of people and advisors that we work with, whether it's your estates and trust lawyer, the accountant, the financial planner, again, the owner and their insurance, they're all tied together for really kind of a holistic approach of exit planning, succession planning and estate planning. And they are tied together. So again, they all have to be working in conjunction and the business owner has to be realistic about all of them, but thoughtful.
David Spray
\nYeah. So I'm starting to get it that really, you could kind of say it falls under the umbrella of being financially successful in one's life. In a way, the price of that is the more financially successful one is, the more planning that's required to ensure the maximum capture of value that they've created both on the estate tax side and on the business side. And I guess the difference is somebody who's just a corporate executive, their state plan is really the heart of their issue. They don't really need the exit plan, the succession plan, because they're an employee. Okay, that makes sense. So let's talk a bit about the planning process itself. Let's get into some of the nuts and bolts, if we could, because it sounds like it's really a holistic approach. What are the different components of that planning, Matt, that comes into that? I mean, we've talked about the estate planning, the exit planning, the succession planning. Are those really the three legs of the stool or are there additional planning components beyond that that are subsets of that?
Matt Clark
\nThose are our key components. I'm going to throw this one over to Mike. I know this is his area on the tax planning and that is his specialty.
Mike Silverman
\nYeah, I would say, David, that it's a very holistic effort that we go through a lot of steps. The initial step in the planning process is we want to hear from the business owner what his or her goals are. And those are personal goals, business goals and financial goals. Once we've identified that, then we can structure our planning around those goals to ensure that we achieve those goals through the succession plan and the exit plan.
So our first step once we've identified those goals is as Matt alluded to earlier, we go through a due diligence process with the business. We want to make sure the business is airtight and squeaky clean. So we literally go through with the business owner. The due diligence checklist we use when we represent a company and buying another business, because we want to go through all facets of your business, not just legal issues, but every other issue. Insurance, benefit plans, et cetera. Just everything that you would go through if your business was being acquired. We want you to look at your business from the outside in and think about what areas of your business need protection, what the value drivers are in your business that make your business unique and give you barriers to competition.
\n\nWhat things we need to protect through an employment agreement, for example, that has non compete, non solicitation and confidentiality to getting a trademark on your name and logo, et cetera. We want to make sure we've identified any issues that need to be cleaned up and get you to the point where your business is airtight and squeaky clean.
\n\nSo a buyer would have the shortest due diligence exercise with your business ever. Once we've gone through that, then we move on to financial planning because we want to accomplish your financial goals. So we want to get a back of the envelope number, first of all from your financial planner as to the liquid net worth that you need to have to retire under the circumstances and terms you want to retire. And so that gives us a reference point. So the second reference point, in light of the fact that a high percentage of your net worth is the value of your business, is we have your accountant do a back of the envelope net proceeds analysis of what you would get if you sold your business today after fees to professionals and investment bankers and after taxes, et cetera. And so once we know what you could net, what you could realize if you sold your business today, we compare that number to the liquid net worth number your financial planner has given us.
\n\nThere's usually a huge delta between those two numbers and it puts in the bright lights for the client how much they need to increase the value of their company. So that's the first element of planning, really. The second element of planning is really growth planning. We need to work in concert with your professional advisors to develop a growth plan where we can increase the revenues, the profits and the cash flow and the value of your business so that over time we can eliminate that delta that exists between that net proceeds number that you could get today and the liquid net worth number you need.
\n\nAfter we've completed the growth planning. We also put in place a contingency plan because what could interrupt the time frame for completing your growth plan is if there's an intervening event, death or disability. So we typically go about securing an appropriate amount of life insurance and sometimes disability insurance to ensure that we've insured against that contingency. After we've gone through those planning exercises, we're ready to now design the structure of your exit plan. And typically in connection with designing that structure, we're going to go through a lot of different structures with you, but we're going to also make sure what Matt alluded to earlier, we don't have barriers.
\n\nThings are going to be in the way to your achieving 100 cents on the dollar right off the bat on the sale of your business. And the biggest one is typically if a high percentage of your customers are coming of your revenue is coming from one customer or your business is dependent on the owner because the owner is responsible for 70% of the revenue with the client relationships. If there's a dependency, if there's a concentration issue, we want to eliminate that. And so the structure we're designing will work seamlessly. And so we go through the different structures for the exit plan and we figure out what's the most tax efficient structure from both an income tax standpoint and then a state and gift tax standpoint. And also simultaneously is achieving all the goals that you have set out for us. And then lastly, we're creating a succession plan. What we talked about earlier for.
\n\nDavid Spray
\nSo thank you for that. But one thing I was thinking about is this concept. You've got the advisors, right, the estate planning attorney, the CPA, the wealth advisor, that who should be the quarterback on that. And I know a lot of wealth advisors end up taking that role because they find that they seem to have more frequent contact with the client. So they end up kind of taking that quarterback and proactive role. But as I listen to you, I wonder if you all should actually be in that quarterback role. And here's why I say that. Because if 80% of the client's net worth is in the business, then that's really what's driving everything, right? That's the biggest asset in the estate plan. That's the biggest asset from the financial planning. So I'm guessing that you don't just do this exit and succession planning, kind of wash your hands of it, give it to them and say, hey, if something changes, call me. Or if you're ready to sell your business, give me a call. Are you all more involved on an ongoing basis than what I might first have imagined? Matt, what are your thoughts there? I asked several questions at once.
Matt Clark
\nThere no I think let me step back. I was going to say after Mike talked about the planning process and the Holistic approach, I think the answer is mean. These are clients that we work with on a regular basis and so we understand their needs and issues and risks. There is a regular check in. The only way these plans are successful is if you're checking in against them to make sure that the client is moving forward correctly or that you have to reevaluate if something comes up. That's all part of it. Maybe their goals have changed, their needs have changed. There has to be a discussion on that. We work and I wouldn't say while we take the lead on that, on the planning, we are working with each of these areas, whether it's these experts, whether it's the accountant, the financial planner, insurance. We want to have a collegial relationship where it's viewed as truly a team that we're all there on behalf of the owner to make sure that their plans and their needs are met. And so you're right. I think if 80% of the value of the company or excuse me, the owner's assets are driven by the company, and we're working with that company day in and day out, whether it's on their commercial agreements, their benefit plans, just general advice and guidance. We're there for our clients. We will help them dealing with their financial planner, the accountant insurance. It's across the board. But we're mindful that it does take a team approach so that the clients needs are met.
Mike Silverman
\nOkay, David, I would augment that by saying that one thing that falls through the cracks is that a typical business owner has excellent advisors, but excellent advisors. And getting a really well conceived exit plan and succession plan done are two different things, in my experience at least. I think that the advisors, number one, are not proactive with getting the exit and succession planning done. And secondarily, they don't coordinate with each other on this topic. And then lastly, they don't necessarily have the experience. I mean, you need to have done many dozens, if not over 100 exit plans so that you're really well versed in all the particulars of a client's fact situation and you can design the exactly right exit plan. So having a great team of advisors and getting a great exit plan done are two different concepts. So I think it's good to have as your quarterback somebody who's done a lot of exit plans and succession plans in their career.
David Spray
\nNow that makes sense. And I wasn't thinking about the ongoing commercial aspects of the business that they can reach out to you on contracts and other stuff. So help me understand what would be, from your perspective, a textbook client engagement where you all can really add maximum value. Let's say we have a business that's got a $20 million enterprise value, single shareholder gentleman in his 40s. What would kind of the ideal situation look like? Are you proactively meeting annually, quarterly? And then what other aspects of the commercial legal situation are you guys set up to handle? I'm guessing all the transactional contract type stuff that you all can be a resource, is that correct?
Mike Silverman
\nYeah, I'd like Matt to weigh in on it as well. But from my vantage point, once we've designed the exit plan and the succession plan, it takes a long time to implement it. The growth plan takes quite a long time to implement. So we're in contact on a monthly basis, sometimes more frequently than that because we want to stay on the client because these things can drift if you're not in contact with the client, things don't get done necessarily. So we can build the engine, but then we got to fuel it. And so we're in contact with them on the implementation until it's done, and then we're working with them on all the things I talked about before with the due diligence effort, we want to make sure that you're building on once we've done that. So we want to keep you airtight and squeaky clean and help you. To grow.
David Spray
\nAnd Matt, what else might you add to that?
Matt Clark
\nYeah, I think we become part of the generally, these clients, they don't have in house counsel, and so we become their general counsel for their business. We're there for daily advice and guidance, whatever they need. And it's really all aspects of their business we're able to assist them with and try to give them advice and guidance. Understand now that we have a clear understanding of kind of their vision, their plan, where they want to be, our goal is really to help them to get there in every aspect, whether that's, again, even on the hiring of employees, if they want our advice. I know that Mike and I have sat in on interviews when they're interviewing key employees for their business because that's part of our role, if that owner wants us to be involved in that. So we really become part of the management team and we're tied at the hip with the owner. Our goals are aligned with theirs.
David Spray
\nYeah. And you're helping me kind of better understand this because of the due diligence you're doing on the front end, you have a better understanding of their business than if they just say, hey, I need to have a contract drafted, and they ask their golfing buddy, who should I call? They call up the attorney. Like, I need a contract. An attorney. In that isolated basis, it would be much more difficult for them to provide contextual advice right. Without understanding the whole situation. Yeah.
Matt Clark
\nYou don't know if that client is going to be the key client or if it's just kind of a one off or what their risk tolerance is, where they are in the process. Kind of the lifespan of the company. Are they looking to have an exit in two years, five years, ten years? It's just kind of in the abstract. And so, again, we're happy we work with clients in that way, but what we really enjoy is helping them plan for their future success of the company and then helping them drive that success.
David Spray
\nYeah, that makes sense. And it sounds like you guys frequently work as a team serving your clients. Could you help me understand the roles you all play in that teamwork? And I guess the other benefit is there's a lot of overlap too. Right. So from the client's perspective, they're also reducing their key attorney risk right. By having two of you that know their situation. So, Matt, when a client asks you, hey, why do I need two of you? Isn't it cheaper for me just to have one of you? How do you answer that question as far as how you guys work together and the expertise you bring?
Matt Clark
\nWell, first off, I'd say we complement each other. My practice is a corporate general practice and an M and a practice. I did work eleven years in house at a variety of companies, and I've worked with early stage companies all the way up to publicly traded companies. And so I think I have a really good vision of what it looks like for a company to grow the day in, day out needs of a company. I can be the client's in house counsel, but I'm their outside advisor as so, you know, the one thing I'd say is the client is never going to pay for Mike and I at the same time. We have this arrangement where we're both on a call with the client. One of us is not going to bill. They just don't experience that we understand the needs of the client and what I really call value based billing, they understand and have to feel like they're getting value for what we provide. And we think we really do provide value to our clients both short term and really with the planning long term. And that's our goal. We want clients that are going to be, that will be their counsel, not just for the review of one contract, but to help them grow their business and really look back and say, that was really great working with you. Let me give you the name of I'm going to tell one of my friends, my colleagues, somebody I know, they should work with Mike Silverman or Matt Clark. And so that's ultimately and with denton's.
David Spray
\nAnd so that's what we look, you know, I thought I've got a pretty good understanding know, the roles that all the advisors play, but you guys kind of just keep throwing me for a loop here, because when I think of an M A advisor, I think of a very transactionally focused advisor, where a substantial portion of the lifetime value of that client comes from that single transaction. And thus, by necessity, it seems like they need to really maximize the value of that client. But what I hear you guys saying is you take a different approach. You take a long term approach to the relationship, and because you're taking that long term approach, you don't have to bill for both of your time every time you're on a call. And so in the long run, if you think about it from like an hourly cost, the client's actually paying less in the long run because so it's like a two way street, right? If the client says, hey, I want you guys to be part of my long term team, in exchange for that kind of long term commitment, you're able to be able to take a long term perspective and not be hyper focused on how much revenue that client delivered this month. Does that sound right, Mike? Yeah.
Mike Silverman
\nAnother example of that, too, is most clients think that a sale to a third party buyer, a strategic buyer, whatever, is nirvana. That's the best possible exit structure for them. And it's a great exit structure for a law firm and an accounting firm and an investment banker because it generates enormous fees for all of those professionals. I can tell you that only a small percentage of the exit plans that Matt and I do involve a third party buyer. Most of them are a different structure where the revenue that is paid to the professional advisors is a fraction of what they'd paid if they did a third party sale. So we do what's best for the client, and there's a parade of horribles that the client isn't aware of until you delineate it for them associated with a third party sale. And we can get you typically 100 cents on the dollar with a different structure, whereas with a third party sale, there's a lot of different results that might be obtained.
David Spray
\nYeah, and I want to talk a bit more about that because when I heard you on Lori's podcast a year and a half ago, that really intrigued me. But back to the question as far as what roles you and Matt serve when working together as a team. So it sounds like like it sounds like he has more buy side experience from large Acquisitive companies. Is that accurate? And you've got more of a focus on the tax consequences or help me understand the delineation.
Mike Silverman
\nMatt is very strong as a corporate lawyer, and he's got a significant buy side and sell side practice on the M A front. I have no M A component to my practice. My practice is strictly general corporate tax and exit succession planning. And so but we complement each other, as Matt mentioned earlier.
David Spray
\nI see. No, thank you for that clarification. Now that makes even more sense to me. So what I would like to do is I'd like to kind of shift gears and talk about the whole concept of internal sales ESOPs. And again, from your interview with Lori, it just really resonated with me that of all of the benefits of an internal sale and quite frankly, I really rarely hear M A attorneys talking about. So just talk to me a bit more about why do you never hear about internal sales? It's like the thing you always hear is there's a financial buyer or there's a strategic buyer. You always want the strategic because they'll pay a premium. And that's kind of the end of the story. And due diligence is going to be horrible, and the buyer will retrade at the last minute and a lot of a significant portion of the deals never close after months of painful due diligence. But there's a third way. So why don't you talk to us, Mike, about some of the benefits of, I guess what I'd call the third way.
Mike Silverman
\nOkay, well, as a preface to describing the indirect acquisition or internal transaction, I think that the reason you hear about it so little is that M A lawyers, corporate lawyers, they're driven. I mean, it's almost automatic pilot for them to drive you to a third party sale because that's what they know that's where their experience lies. Their experience lies with working with an investment banker and getting the highest amount and as many cents on the dollar closing as they can and so forth. And unless you're a pretty experienced exit planner, you're not going to be at all familiar with an internal transaction.
\nAnd so what I say to every client to dissuade them, to get them to look at an internal transaction is I said, here's the pros and cons of a sale to a third party buyer. If you sell to a third party buyer, the big pro to me is an investment banker is going to find you a strategic buyer that's going to pay you more than the fair market value of your business. So that's a big pro. The cons that I have with a third party sale and as I referred to them before, it's kind of the parade of horribles is number one, you're going to pay large professional fees to a law firm, an accounting firm, and a very big fee to an investment banker. I mean, you're talking high six figures, maybe seven figures in fees for those items. Number two, you're going to have a purchase agreement that has 25 representations and warranties about your business that you have liability for.
\nAnd you're going to hit in that agreement an indemnification section that makes you liable for up to 100% of the purchase price. So when you close on the sale of your business, you're not sleeping all that well at night with those two factors at work.
David Spray
\nAnd the third one that bothers me a lot is you typically don't get 100 cents on the dollar. There's typically a promissory note or there's contingent purchase price, which we call an earn out that's dependent on the business achieving certain milestones down the road, and someone else is running your business relative to those milestones now. So I don't like any of those dynamics. I want to come up with a structure. I like to implement a structure that eliminates all those things, the fees, the earn out payments, the deferred purchase price, et cetera. So the structure that I use that I refer to as an indirect acquisition is a lot of my business owners are very loyal to their key employees.
David Spray
\nAnd what they tell me is, in a perfect world, I'd like to transition this business to the management team, to the key employees who have gotten me to where I am right now. And I want to incent them to facilitate my exit from this company. They don't have the wherewithal to take out a loan, guarantee a loan. They don't have the cash in their pockets to buy me out. So how can we do this? What my structure is, it's three simple steps.
David Spray
\nI have the business owner exchange his or her shares of stock in the company, which I call a recapitalization for shares, for a small number of voting shares and a large number of non voting shares. So after that step, the shareholder or the business owner might have three voting shares and 997 non voting shares. Step one. Step two is we identify in the succession plan who are the key employees of the business who drive it right now and who we want to incent to drive it in the future, drive the value and the cash flow in the future.
David Spray
\nAnd we're going to grant to them a small percentage of the non voting stock in the company, maybe 3-4-5 something like that. And we're going to tie to that a very long vesting schedule so that they won't vest in it for maybe a ten year period. And I tend to use a cliff vesting schedule. So unless and until you've given us ten years of sweat equity, you don't vest in this stock we've granted to you, you own it, but it's subject to forfeiture if you leave in the next ten years.
David Spray
\nLet me just be clear. So a cliff is opposed to like a pro rada where exactly? If it's a ten year schedule, say they earn 10% because of the cliff, that gives the employer more ultimate power, I guess, over that. Yeah.
David Spray
\nThe two problems I have with the prorata vesting are number one, the key employee could walk out the door after four years and they're 40% vested and that doesn't sync up with the exit schedule for the owner. So that's not helpful to me. I want the timeline for that vesting schedule to sync up so the owner can be fully bought out by the time you're vested. So you're either all in with your sweat equity or you're not. And this is also a tremendous incentive tool with the key employees because the third step is we enter into a shareholder agreement between the business owner and the key employees who got that 3% of the stock. And that agreement says that the business owner has a right, a put right, meaning he or she has the right to require the company to buy a certain percentage of his shares over time. And so as those shares are purchased by the company through the cash flow that these key employees are generating, little by little, the owner's percentage is going down and the key employees are rising from three and 5% to 20% and ultimately to 100%. So the structure, if you think about it, creates a win win environment. It's a huge win for the business owner because that owner stays in control of the company with the voting shares till the bitter end, until all of his or her non voting shares have been purchased by the company. Number two, they don't have any of the cost downside risks associated with a third party sale. They're going to get 100 cents on the dollar and oftentimes the fair market. We have the purchase price equal to a floor value or the then current fair market value. So they may get in excess of 100 cents on the dollar. And the owner also gets to achieve his or her goal of transitioning the business to his management, his or her management team. On the flip side, it's a win for the key employees because they're not paying for the business. The cash flow of the business is buying out the business owner and they gradually, just by contributing their sweat equity, are going from 5% to owning the business in total over time. So the structure creates a huge win for both sides and we eliminate all the prey to horribles I talked about with a third party sale.
David Spray
\nYeah. And this is usually what you're describing. Is it usually using an ESOP structure?
David Spray
\nSometimes it's an ESOP, sometimes not. I'm a big fan of ESOPs, ESOPs as a tax lawyer, it's the last safe haven I have in the Internal Revenue Code, frankly. And so an ESOP I use in my exit planning quite a bit. My 1st 25 years of practice, I did very few ESOPs the last few years of my practice. I mean, we're working on three ESOPs right now. The acronym just stands for Employee Stock Ownership Plan. And that's a qualified retirement plan. And so we can set up a qualified retirement plan to buy some or all of the shares in a company from the business owner. And there's enormous benefits to doing that. The typical business owner owns a flow through entity for tax purposes, an S corporation or an LLC tax as a partnership. And so if we have an ESOP buying an ownership interest in a flow through entity, let's just say that the ESOP buys 50% of the stock in an S corporation from a business owner. Now, all of a sudden, 50% of the income of that entity is tax exempt. We don't have to pay taxes on.
David Spray
\nIt anymore because the ESOP owns that 50%.
David Spray
\nYeah, and the ESOP is a tax exempt qualified plan. And so the ESOP gives us a lot of benefits in the exit planning sphere because number one, the cash flow of the business is going to go up significantly because tax dollars are no longer being paid ever again to the state or federal governments. Number two, the owners of the beneficiaries of that ESOP are the employees of the company. So now, all of a sudden, you've created an incredible incentive compensation tool to retain your current employees and incent them to grow the value of the business as well as a recruitment tool, because you can tell every new employee that comes aboard. You're going to be a beneficiary of this ESOP, and you're going to be an indirect owner of the company. That's why Anderson Window Company, for example, says they're employee owned, they're owned by an ESOP. And so their employees are very proud and very happy to be owners of Anderson Window Company, which is a big valuable company that obviously was owned by a business owner one day, and it got sold to an ESOP. So ESOPs are a big part of our practice as well.
David Spray
\nIsn't there another benefit to an ESOP that's like, similar to a 1031 exchange?
David Spray
\nYeah, there's another code, section 1042, that says if you sell stock in a C corporation to an ESOP, then you can take the proceeds and redeploy them in the stock market, and you don't have to pay tax on those proceeds. You can defer your gain recognition as long as you hold those publicly traded securities in which you've invested the sale proceeds. Once you ultimately sell those publicly traded securities, then you pay your gains, but you could hold those securities for a long time. You could hold them till death and get a basis, step up in them and never pay tax. So 1042 gives you an advantage. If you're a C corporation, you sell stock to an ESOP.
David Spray
\nSo, ma'am, this has been so much fun, and I still have a bunch of questions. We may have to just have a round two, but I always love some success stories. And so help me understand kind of what kind of an ideal client looks like for you all. I'm guessing a half million dollar revenue solopreneur is probably not the right fit. Or maybe the other way to look at it is maybe each of you give an anonymous client sort of success story. And maybe through that we can kind of illustrate what the kind of typical clients like. Matt, why don't you go first? When people say, hey, what's the perfect company for you guys? What are the attributes that you think you can really add a lot of value to a company?
Matt Clark
\nSo I have a client that I helped form the client and again, very early stage in a somewhat niche market and set up the company. Asked him what his kind of went through the exit and succession planning to make sure that as he grew his business and he literally started with four employees and within five years had 30 employees was in a really attractive market. But part of his goal was he wanted to truly exit the business and didn't want to be in it any longer. And he was looking to just truly maximize his value, understanding he might be willing to stay on for six months at the most. And so we went through, we helped him set up his benefit plans. We made sure that his IP was protected. It's really important, both trademark and here. He had some patents he was selling us and internationally. We made sure that he was complying on his export compliance. We made sure since he was selling both at his location in Pennsylvania, but he was also selling outside of Pennsylvania, that his tax regiment, that he wasn't going to be hit with sales and use tax and failure to pay that in all of the jurisdictions in which he was supposed to. And so we look at clients and say, we're going to help you grow your business from two or three employees to an exit that is upper seven figures. I mean, it was a great within a short time period. And then this is somebody who is, to be candid, young enough that once his non compete runs out, he will be back to us. We've set up his estate planning and so he's coming back to us already and saying, what if I want to invest in real estate? What if I want to invest? And so we're coordinating with his financial planner, with his accountant, with his insurance, and we continue to do that post exit. And so it's really a case of the plan worked and then are we continuing to help him plan moving forward, as he says? Although I left that business, we found that entrepreneurs are entrepreneurs and founders are founders and they might take some time off, but they're going to come back. And so, again, that's the long term where Mike and I work with these clients. And it's not just I'll call it transactional one transaction. It's really looking at kind of the long term and working. He has a family. We've set up the family trust for him. And so it's a relationship that I expect that will last for ten to 20 years.
David Spray
\nThat's great. I love examples. Mike, do you have an example, a client success story example, that you could just tell us a bit about the company?
Mike Silverman
\nYeah, I can give you, actually two very different ones that I can describe very quickly. Actually. One was an exit plan where I used that very internal transaction that I just spoke about. This was way back in 2007, where basically we put in place the structure I described and the husband and wife who owned the business, they cashed out way back in 2007, maybe at $6 million, by gradually having the company buy their shares. So the management team succeeded back then to the ownership of the company. And fast forward to today. The management team is going to sell the business for, I think, about 23 million. So the business has gone way up in value. That management team didn't pay a nickel. They just contributed their sweat equity all along and stuck with the plan. So it was a good exit for the husband and wife. They were very happy with getting 100 cents on the dollar way back when. And the management team is thrilled to be selling the business today.
David Spray
\nFor four times what they paid for it.
Mike Silverman
\nBasically, yeah, four times. So they grew. I mean, the number of employees and the revenue and everything just skyrocketed. So that's part of the explanation for the soaring in value. A very different transaction was I got referred to a seller who owned a C corporation, and I represented him in selling his stock. This is back in 2014 to an ESOP, and ESOP was buying all the stock in the company. And I didn't represent the company or the ESOP, so I represented the seller. And the purchase price was not that large. It was only $4 million, I think. And the company took on debt of, I think, 3 million and used cash on the balance sheet to fund the other million. After the transaction was completed, the company came to me and said they'd like me to be their counsel. And so I immediately told them, we got to convert you from a C Corp. To an S Corporation. So you're a flow through entity, and all your income will flow into a tax exempt vehicle. That factor alone has caused the company to I mean, the company is still in place. It's owned by an ESOP, and all the employees are beneficiaries of that ESOP, and the employee ranks have grown quite a bit since 14. But the value of that company today, because the ESOP has to go through an annual valuation, it's like $21 million. So the company has grown fivefold since 2014, and the biggest factor in that is 40% of their cash flow is being retained. It's not going to the tax authorities anymore. So that, to me, is a real success story just by making an S election in that structure.
David Spray
\nWow, this has been such a content rich show. Like I said, I may want to have you guys come back in a few months and go into some other things. But with that we're approaching an hour. Why don't I just let you guys kind of each give any parting advice you may have for business owners as it relates to exit and succession planning? And Matt, why don't we let you go first? And Mike, why don't we let you take us down the home stretch?
Matt Clark
\nI think exit and succession planning is I think there's a saying, the best time to plant a tree was 20 years ago. The second best time is today. And I think exit and succession planning is the same way. The best time was when you first started the business, but the next best time is today. And so to the extent you haven't started, now is the time. It's never going to get easier if you look forward and say, well, give me six months. Give me twelve months. And Mike and I have heard that, and we really encourage our clients today is that six months. You don't know what the future holds, but why don't we put some contingency planning around it and help you build the value of your business and be that kind of crutch for you that you can count on and rely on to execute on that? So we're here for our clients, and ultimately, we're here to make sure that they meet their goals. And the best time to do that is today.
David Spray
\nAnd how do they start that process? Just give you a call or send you an email.
Matt Clark
\nYeah, it's just reaching out. And then we set up a series of meetings and kind of walk through. It's a time consuming the first item is the diligence. Well, I think, Michael, the first thing is understanding what their needs are, their goals are, and then understanding about the business, if it's an existing business going through and doing diligence on it to make sure that we understand where the issues are and then have a very candid conversation of what they think the issues and risks are to their business. Most business owners know. I mean, they really do understand what the weaknesses are and what they need to do. It's hard sometimes to kind of open up on that.
David Spray
\nHow does that work in terms of the cost? Do you guys do a preliminary phone call at no cost just to kind of get to know one another?
Matt Clark
\nHow do you all absolutely in the beginning for those the initial meeting and call, and there's no expense for that. We don't charge for that. Again, we look at things long term. It's a marathon, it's not a sprint. And so we're not looking to make our fees on those calls. The ultimate is we want to build a long term relationship with the business owner and the company and really build that relationship for 510, 20 years. Whether they sell that business and they look to enter into a new business or their future endeavors, we want to be there with them.
David Spray
\nOkay, now that sounds good. Mike, what's your parting advice?
Mike Silverman
\nWell, at the risk of bombarding you with trite expressions, I'm a big fan of the expression yesterday is history, tomorrow is a mystery, and today is a gift. And that's why it's called the present. So there's no time like the present for getting your exit and succession plan done. It's imperative because you don't know what the future holds. And the thing that I noticed about all the exit and succession plans that we do is the business owner starts out by saying, this is something I have to do, just like an estate plan. But as they do it, they really enjoy it. They learn a lot about their business. They're looking at their business from the outside in and they get enthralled and engrossed with it, and they enjoy the process. And when we get the process completed, they have a sense of comfort and they have a sense of accomplishment. So it's something that initially you say, it's something I got to do, but it's actually not a burden. It's something that you should embrace and then enjoy. It's an opportunity, it's not a burden.
David Spray
\nThat's a really good point. Yeah, because you said it well, I don't really have anything more to add. Well, guys, this has really been fun. And this is only the second time I've had two guests at the same time. And the last time. Was a law firm as well. It was two attorneys who had substantial IC disc experience, so well, again, I really appreciate your time. I'll have your contact info in the show notes if anyone wants to reach out to you and any parting words from you guys before we wrap up.
David Spray
\nWhat was that, Matt?
Matt Clark
\nThanks, David, for having us.
David Spray
\nOh, sure. It was my pleasure. There's a lot of great stuff here, so let's go ahead and wrap it up. I'm not sure why my recording is not stopped. Let me just.
Special Guests: Matthew Clark and Mike Silverman.
","summary":"\r\nToday on the IC-DISC Podcast, I spoke with Mike Silverman and Matt Clark, two attorneys specializing in exit planning and succession planning for business owners. They explained that exit planning is all about planning when an owner wants to leave the company, while succession planning identifies future leaders within the business. Both are crucial since you need a strategy for expected and unexpected departures. \r\n\r\nMike and Matt stressed meeting regularly so these plans stay on track and don't cause disruption. They also talked about having a whole team involved beyond just lawyers, with experts in different fields all working together towards long-term goals. \r\n\r\nThe overall message I got from listening was planning early, working with professionals with experience like Matt and Mike, and sticking with the process to ensure that transitions go smoothly for everyone.","date_published":"2023-08-18T12:30:00.000-05:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/d61cedee-227d-47c8-8d74-3407972d4afc/0ffb53d6-be4a-4f69-9a94-f7f2ad9c8aff.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":57132872,"duration_in_seconds":3547}]},{"id":"f43ff1d2-f19e-4bb9-a8aa-51bdee515159","title":"Ep045: Mastering The Art of Financial Planning with Jackie Campbell","url":"https://www.ic-discshow.com/045","content_text":"\n\n\n\n\n\nIn today’s episode of the IC-DISC podcast, we sit down with Jackie Campbell, a savvy CPA, founding partner of a thriving firm in Tampa, and the engaging host of her own radio show and podcast, Beyond the Money. Jackie generously shares her firm's unique 360-degree approach to financial planning, propelling clients towards a secure future.\n\nWe dig deep into the importance of believing in oneself, the necessity of having succession plans, and how to stay connected with clients. Jackie highlights the importance of strategic planning, building generational wealth, and her passion for helping those in the \"retirement red zone\" and first responders.\n\n \n\nSHOW HIGHLIGHTS\n\n\nJackie, a CPA and founding partner at a firm in Tampa, Florida, shares her firm's unique approach to financial planning. They take a 360-degree view of their clients' financial history and patterns, and use these insights to strategically plan for the future.\nHer firm has created the 'hero package', a document storage system designed to prepare clients for unexpected life events. This has proven to be an extremely beneficial tool for clients and their families.\nJackie also runs a radio show, Beyond the Money, where she promotes financial literacy. She shares her clients' successes and educates listeners on various financial topics.\nShe transitioned from radio to podcasting to delve deeper into financial topics. This medium allows her to explore complex subjects in greater detail and share her wealth of knowledge with a broader audience.\nJackie believes in the importance of self-trust and confidence. She encourages listeners to believe in their capabilities and not be overly concerned with others' opinions.\nShe emphasizes the importance of having a succession plan for businesses. Having a plan in place can prevent confusion and complications in the event of unforeseen circumstances.\nJackie's firm serves clients all over the United States and Europe, focusing particularly on those in the retirement 'red zone' and first responders. Her unique timeline process helps clients plan for upcoming life milestones.\nShe advocates for progress over perfection. She believes that being organized and having all important documents and passwords in one place can make a significant difference.\nJackie's firm is considered a full-service planning firm. They collaborate with attorneys and other professionals to provide a comprehensive 360-degree view of their clients' lives.\nThrough her radio show and podcast, Jackie has been able to interview celebrities and share their personal financial planning stories. These interviews provide listeners with a unique perspective on financial planning and management.\n\n\n\n\nLINKSShow Notes\nBe a Guest\nAbout IC-DISC Alliance\nAbout Campbell & Co\n\nGUEST\n\n\n\nJackie CampbellAbout Jackie\n\n\n\n\n\nTRANSCRIPT\n\n(AI transcript provided as supporting material and may contain errors)\n\n\nDavid Spray\nGood morning, jackie, how good morning. \n\nJackie Campbell\nI'm doing ve past the summer storms, he will be doing good yeah. \n\nDavid Spray\na native of Houston, texas, the Gulf Coast, summer sto part of florida, are you? \n\nJackie Campbell\nI'm right, just north abo right there in the center, the west coast. \n\nDavid Spray\nOkay, and that part of the state. \n\nJackie Campbell\nI but I'm originally from t florida panhandle, where t beaches are up near Fort nice, and what brought yo part of florida. Wow, my and he was in law enforci with the state of florida here for his very first s of Tampa and we've been h 10 years now. \n\nDavid Spray\nAnd I guess in your career it was z started there as anywhere up here at University of in Tampa and you know it working. \n\nJackie Campbell\nThe next thing y firm one of the youngest state of florida having m have kids and they start history. \n\nDavid Spray\nOh, that is awes before you. You, you struck. \n\nJackie Campbell\nWell, I started with the. Even knew what a CPA was high school. I kind of fou job when I was in college sort of kind of all, came bit of experience in diff and public accounting be had my college sugary, so a few different things p and decided that public a more my line and kind of head of schedule of havin a lot of ideas and you kn it your way, I guess is t any specific event that the move or well, having t had this great idea, you think we're smarter than two toddlers and I thought more time with my kids. \n\nDavid Spray\nI and you know that lasti and you know three employ to get an office locatiin and just kept going from would imagine, because I m started our career probab, back when we started our weren't as kind of family are now, or they that that will train you very well. \n\nJackie Campbell\nLarger firms, the regional, expect you know a lot f. \n\nDavid Spray\nOkay, so you started your. Why don't we just kind of the firm? What would you, your clients say, make your than just the average CPA? \n\nJackie Campbell\nthink just experience has right. I think that is on is different. One thing t clients is just the trust and you know you would t really easy to earn or to, but you know that's not, and we've been in busines over 30 years so that's working with not only one. We go into the second and whether it's a small busi or whether it's just an, I already been retired and so I would say that pretty, we are a planning, firm th thing that we do a little. We don't just look at hist, our historians looking at happen. \n\nI think we have an unique ability is to be a going on now what the pa and what that pattern is, be moved forward and plan strategic, being tactical along the way as those ma come along the planned on. So I think that you know the 360 degree lens is re became duly licensed as f. We were allowed so back the first time a CPA acti than one license because a responsibility and the know been regarded as a. So just looking at that f with attorneys, collabori, make sure that we get tha and what the advisors are, the strategy, what that' does take place. \n\nDavid Spray\nYeah, I I've always thought that presented themselves that for CPA firms because you know the trusted advisere communicating with your cl annually just because of compliance and it just se for whatever reason it j of CPA firms have maybe d but really weren't able t practices very well. So y life from your client's p to have kind of this one. Obviously the legal is st with somebody else for th three legs of that stool, the planning and financia, the legal you're covering. That sounds great and th guys end up typically bei, would you say, because yo at like a state planning in the attorneys for that many plans are created. B would do you all have you that, or is that pretty much and the attorney to to imp. \n\nJackie Campbell\nI would say it depends on. Some people are really n always looking and learni what options or oppurtunit for them, so they will su ideas. Sometimes it's jus conversations. You know a plan, it's just very we isn't sure. But yeah, we role. Quite often I had s through the years where s an attorney, they would h, they would have a trust a be titled in the trust, a advisor or the insurance having a certain plan or ramifications of their t legally can't talk about, I can't talk, I can't dis to talk to your accountso prepare and then as the C kind of cleaning everything. Wait, you have a trust W all your financial account. It's just about pulling t and making sure that is t in direction that you're that road mount together. The other day, the one th it's in the water is the. The same story. It's hard. Professional advisors you advice and see a lot of p challenges and the oppurt when it comes to yourself, to the scenario. \n\nDavid Spray\nYeah th the shoes situation right, you all are. You also set, in addition to the planin, the implementation, as far you know, insurance prode funding vehicles in that. \n\nJackie Campbell\nYeah, we're considered a firm. So you know, pretty with money we're able to with someone and find a s, someone who actually spea either tax law or that str, to look at it as products. It that way we look at I trying to get to and to a best, most economical way that makes a lot of sense. \n\nDavid Spray\nYou have all those capabil umbrella because I have s a heavy planning focus b on the independence that actually implement the pro. You have to rely on you, commission, you know dr person let's say to do t, then that can be kind of know, you don't necessarily client over to somebody h a more aggressive style th. I think that's great that to really do it all. And to that that, what do you? The 360? \n\nJackie Campbell\nYeah, the 360 planning. \n\nDavid Spray\nOkay, yeah, no, like a great, a great dis you do so talk to. So w now shift gears. I'm rea you do. In the media world you have a radio show y which came first, the rad the book the radio show been doing that for about. \n\nJackie Campbell\nI think it's a little over radio in the Tampa Bay area, as someone who was really mom would always say oh, her from behind my skirt looking for a place to h. Funny how the thing that most when you're younger develop and that's your s to be and you know I th there. You're always tryi a little bit but I love that I work with and they and really I think help for radio because I come a lot of things to say S so many individuals and f family and the hard one w. It just makes it so natu. Able to actually pull multiple professions together and pull that full Three sixty together for someone is just it. To me that's so rewarding because not everybody can see multi dimensional aspects. \n\nRadio was first. We called our radio show beyond the money. That's because it's really beyond the money. It's about what are you trying to get the freedom to do with your life or your business? What are you trying to grow into? Multiply and freedom of relationships, freedom of purpose those are things that we hear from Dan Sullivan, the founder and strategic coach and it. And when you just really focus on you, what are you trying to get the freedom to do, not just the freedom from doing. I think it's a totally different mindset. \n\nDavid Spray\nSure is your radio show like the weekly show. \n\nJackie Campbell\nYeah, we have. We do air the same show on Saturday and on Sunday as well, and then we have podcast that came as a result a few years later, and that's the beyond the money podcast. \n\nDavid Spray\nOkay, so as far as the radio show. So what station is it on and what time is it come? On? Saturday and Sunday. \n\nJackie Campbell\nYeah, it's W X, j B, it's a local station and ninety nine point nine here in the Tampa Bay area. But you can I mean these days you can access everything all over. \n\nDavid Spray\nAnd then do you have calls callers that call in with questions. Is that kind of the format? \n\nJackie Campbell\nWe do not take live calls because highly count compliance, regulated industry. Oh sure, we don't do that. But sometimes they will call the radio station and they will leave a question for me to talk about. And I do a live conversation on Wednesday mornings with the morning DJ just to talk about what's going on in our area and if there's any changes in law changes and sort of just kind of finger on the polls. \n\nDavid Spray\nWow, that's so, that's great. So that that ended up leading to the podcast. And so how do you view the podcast differently than the radio show? What are the kind of pros and cons of the podcast versus the radio show? Or is the podcast just a rebroadcast of the radio show? \n\nJackie Campbell\nIt's kind of a combination. We have a little over 250 episodes on our podcast and it's a little bit of combination. Sometimes I have what we call on tour interviews. I've had the pleasure to interview Reba McIntyre, yeah, in Nevada, and we talked about mama and the rope and pen and she's he's great she's just who you see on TV. \n\nWho you see on stage is exactly who she is in person Martina McBride. You know quite a few others get the pleasure to go to Nashville here in a few weeks and interview a few as well. So we do take some celebrity interviews and those are just more on a personal level, and then it could be some professionals that we work with, we collaborate with here in our area and we have them on as guests as well. We have a licensed mental health counselor, because you know emotions and is certainly all about your financial picture for individuals and business owners, and we have a quite a few other professionals that will have on from time to time. \n\nDavid Spray\nOkay, that really sounds great, and then it sounds like the last piece of the media stool was the book. Is that right? \n\nJackie Campbell\nYeah, this is something that I've been thinking about for a while. You know what it's. There's a concept called the 90 minute book and I said it took me nine years to actually hit 100%. But you know, sometimes things just happen when they're meant to be and this is just something. It's some of that really hard one wisdom that I was talking about. \n\nYou know, you don't really know how challenging it is to go through cleaning up Financial records from someone until you experience it up close and personal. \n\nAnd I've seen many families do things right and I've seen the outcome of that and I've seen them Just have a total mess. Nobody knows where the keys are, literally and for figuratively, you know, for their financial life, and it's just such a stressful time both you know, emotionally, physically and mentally, and then Figure out and put the puzzle together. I came up with a book I have a what we call a hero package and my wind file came first. That came about eight years ago and that's a document storage system For how to gather all of your important documents and your passwords and you know who are your professional advisors and really what are the succession plan steps that would need to take place. So sort of giving, like an owner's manual. You know how to run my life without me if I'm not able to or not here. So just a real gift for your loved ones and your next to can and your family members. \n\nDavid Spray\nSo I'm curious about that. Talk to me a little bit more. So you talk about the hero file, and then you talked about something else when my wind file W H E N. You, having my southern accents, sounds not sure which way to say it but it's my wind file when the time comes right. \n\nJackie Campbell\nIt's just a really go to book. We never know what's going to happen, doesn't matter how old you are, how young you are sometimes life just happens, and it's just a really great way to collect all those things, and that was the very start of it. The book that I just released was be prepared, creating peace of mind for you and your loved ones, and it sort of ties it all together ideation behind it, my why, my personal why, and also just some highlights of you know what to have in your black book or your lock box, whatever you call it, just just to make it a little bit easier for those that you love and care about the most. \n\nDavid Spray\nSure, and I guess the one of the great things about your practice and your comprehensive, you know, 360 degree view of your clients lives is if the only planning they do is just tell their loved ones to call Jackie, that probably get some, you know, a lot further ahead than they would be if they didn't have a Jackie, right. \n\nJackie Campbell\nThat's exactly the point and so many of my clients have said that. I just told them call this person right here and she will know everything, she will know. And you know I just got another one of those calls this week from one of my clients. You know both. Both the parents happen to be sick and not doing well and the kids came in from out of state and of course they knew, called Jackie Campbell and she'll be able to help you navigate through some of these things and work along with the attorney, and you just never know when that time is going to come. And that's I take that as an honor to be able to do that. \n\nAnother long term client just passed away a few weeks ago, very, quite young, and you know the family is. You know we're actually going to be meeting in a few days here and going through some of the things that we've been doing. You know I really value the relationships that I'm able to build with my clients and I think they're often at a much deeper level because of the trust and because of going the extra step to be on the money not just how much money do you have, how to invest it, where to put it, do you have life insurance, do you have your state documents or are you in compliance with the IRS? It's just really about thinking at a much more personal level with them and kind of always looking and planning ahead, because not everyone has that skill and ability. \n\nDavid Spray\nWell, it's a good thing that that you're a big fan of strategic coach and Dan Sullivan's approach to life, because it doesn't sound like you're going to be able to retire anytime soon. It sounds like there's too many families depending on on you to just be able to just decide you're done and just disappear tomorrow. Is that a fair assumption? \n\nJackie Campbell\nThat's a fair assumption. Yes, as long as you love what you're doing, you know there's really no reason to stop. It's truly about that's one thing I learned from Dan Sullivan is, you know, having whatever you're doing, your life is short and really enjoy what you're doing and have a purpose for what you're doing. And you know, compliance wasn't my thing. I mean I could do it. \n\nI started at a very young age and, you know, before computers even did the tax returns for you. So you really learn With the pencil and the eraser, you know, as the numbers carried page to page. But just being able to go that, that higher level, I just really am blessed that I am able to take my unique abilities and just help somebody else kind of tie those things up with a bow. I'm a big fan of enjoying life and confetti moments and you know people have this idea or ideal that they want this hallmark type life. And OK, what do we need to do to work towards that? It's probably never going to be ideal, but enjoy the confetti moments that come along the way and celebrate them, because we don't know how many of those we're going to have. \n\nDavid Spray\nWhat's the example of a confetti moment? I really like that expression like graduations, marriages, child or, you know, child being born. \n\nJackie Campbell\nYeah, well, those are the big ones, right, and those are the obvious ones that people think about. They have dinner, they do flowers or balloons or whatever birthday cake. But it's also the smaller ones that come along the way. Maybe you're reaching a goal or a milestone or you're like, if you're a business owner, it's your largest quarter yet, or you've reached your dreams. Check, it could be a lot of different things. Maybe you finally got the right team in place that you're able to take some true free time. It could be a lot of different things that go along. \n\nWe look for confetti all the time around here. We just had to find the ones that were easier to clean up because we were having a mess. But you know, the last day of tax season, our staff is real, our team is just loves the throw in the confetti. This year we celebrated our 30th year in business and just having that celebration you know, my family was there, team was there, their family and some of our long term clients and just being able to share the appreciation and the gratitude that we have with them confetti just a lot of fun. \n\nDavid Spray\nThat's awesome. You mentioned your personal. Why, if it's not too personal, what is your personal why? \n\nJackie Campbell\nThat is when my dad was sick. You know you spend our I had spent, you know, two thirds of my career helping others that weren't related, and they were. You know I built a relationship with them and helping them the parents, the moms, the dads, the grandparents get ready for the next generations and I had not really paid attention to my own family, the ones I love and care about the most, and I guess I had it's just you always like wish you had done things. I should have done this. I should have done that when my dad was ill, in the last 30 days of his life in the hospital. You just realizing some things that should have been done and how difficult that was. \n\nYou know my mom was the CFO of the family and she knew where everything was Any insurance, any medical record that the doctors asked for. My mom was able to go and pull it out of a file cabinet. She was really organized. My dad would not have had a clue where the passwords were, how to turn on the computer. He worked on the military base totally different career and mindset and most families have one CFO that pays the bills and does all the filing. And if you look at where we're at now. I guess 20 years ago we didn't have all the electronic files, so you were able to wait 30 days, wait 60 days and you're gonna get a letter from whatever account or safe deposit and you're gonna get an invoice or something in the mail. That doesn't happen anymore and we have so many things in the cloud on computers, on tablets, and if you don't have certain keys or pens or passwords, you can't even obtain obtain any of those records or documentation. \n\nSo that was just a real big eye-opener that, wow, my dad probably isn't the only person that would have been in a jam and I would have had to really help comb through every piece of paper because I didn't know what my mom's filing system was. And you have this concept and this idea that your parents are gonna live forever and while he did pass away at a young age, the time goes by so quickly. So that was my personal experience. And I do remember when we were in the hospital and the nurse came in and said this room is in dire straits today. So whatever they need, they get. \n\nAnd I just thought, dire straits. You're right, that is so true. You get to that dire straight point. And one more thing would just be unbearable to have to go find accounts and where's the money and is there life insurance? And many people, especially the older generations, they keep money and finances really close to the vest. So it's just a way of having let's talk, let's have that conversation, and I'm just so blessed that the feedback that I've gotten from my family, my clients and those around me saying wow, I'm glad somebody's really brought this to my attention that you might need to leave a little bit of a cookie crumb trail for someone else behind you. \n\nDavid Spray\nOkay, so thank you for sharing that and, if I'm understanding you correctly, you're saying that before your dad's illness you'd been helping clients at a certain level. But then it really you experienced at first hand how difficult it can be to try to while you're dealing with end of life health issues but also dealing with layering onto that getting passwords and other stuff in order and you're saying that experience personally gave you kind of a newfound insight and passion to make sure that your clients were not in that situation. Does that about summarize it? \n\nJackie Campbell\nThat completely summarizes it, yeah. \n\nDavid Spray\nWell, that's, and how long ago was that? \n\nJackie Campbell\nThat was about 10 years ago. That happened and I knew I wanted to write a book but it took me a while to get to it. And I did get 80% of the book done. But it was the personal why that I couldn't get past making that and I thought about that for a while, off and on, and I thought, oh, I've got to get that done. It was on my list of goals every year finished my book and it's just a short read. It's not a very thick book. I'm not a big. I normally will skip chapters if it's a big book anyway, get the most important parts out of it. \n\nBut the main thing is to inspire people with this book and the final way I was able to get that executed was I realized that it wasn't about me, it wasn't about my dad, it wasn't about what I did or didn't do. \n\nIt was truly about helping others be the hero of their family, Because we really I would say the majority of the population wants to honor your parents, what they want to happen, and this is a way for them to keep their dignity you to keep your dignity in some tough decisions that you might have to make. But it's just a way to let your parents or your loved ones be the hero of their story and have that big handoff, that baton. That's just gonna be such a gift and blessing, and I don't know that somebody who receives it might realize how difficult it might have been otherwise. But you're working with clients since then and some that have children that live out of state or completely away and they just they don't even know where, how to open the garage, what the garage code is, or they're just not basically here. They don't know these things, and I have just seen so many examples of how this would have been just such a true blessing and a gift to who's next. \n\nDavid Spray\nAnd it's interesting, as you talk about the hero part, that's another reminds me of something that Dan Sullivan always says who do you want to be a hero to? Was that inspired by that question by Dan, or was it unrelated? \n\nJackie Campbell\nIt's definitely. I mean, I've been a strategic coach for about 10 years so it's definitely had a significant influence in my thinking because, as he says, we're in the thinking business, so it's definitely part of it and it's just. I personally wish my dad was able to be the hero and have all those things done. My mom certainly still is the hero and she just has given me invaluable feedback on putting this together and some of the things that she's done for years. It's in several of my clients. I've been able to collaborate with them some long-term clients, our client advisory board and get some really great feedback from them and how they've kind of kept track of things and put it all together to really just kind of make it something. \n\nThat's one go-to place and we do have a digital version of it now as well the my Winfile. The book goes along with it, and we also have a for those that just like cheats. Cheats and checklists. We have a guarding your legacy checklist. So that's what we call the Hero Pack. It's just a system, a go-to system to really kind of pull things together for your loved ones. \n\nDavid Spray\nThat's awesome, by the way, if it makes you feel any better. I also teamed up with Stuart and his team from 90-Minute Books for my book, and it also took me many years to do a 90-Minute Book. The good news is, when I do my second one, it'll be not much more than 90 minutes, because now that I really understand that it's all about progress, not perfection it's, and, like you said, you're authoring the book as a resource to people, and every day that perfectionism slows down, good enough, there's people that could be benefiting from a good enough version. So, anyway, I just wanna let you know you're in good company. It also took me many years to get my 90-Minute Book done. \n\nJackie Campbell\nYeah, he did say I'm not alone. \n\nDavid Spray\nYeah no, I think so. I think I know the answer to this question, but I'd like to ask you anyway. So what do you get the most satisfaction from in your role, in your firm, in the way you've structured your role, what gives you the most satisfaction? \n\nJackie Campbell\nThat's a really great question. \n\nI think I'm really energized by being able to see things come together, not just having the conversation, not just talking, to hear myself talk, but to have someone that really values my input and my recommendations and will walk alongside me to actually get those executed. \n\nI think that is really the trust that I try to build and really value most. \n\nAnd I'm working now with a client that they've been clients for a long time and just really high ranking in the military, so super organized, very strategic, very tactical, and they're thinking and their operations and I've worked with them for a long period of time, so I've worked with them, now their children and now the next, the third generation, with the grandchildren. \n\nAnd to be able to help someone set up their very first Roth IRA at 19 years old, it just melts my heart and it's like, oh, this is just such a great generational trend to build and you see all the bad things that happen, but just to see that positive thinking and growth that happens with those next generations. I just really enjoy that and worked with quite a few war veterans and from the Normandy days that still were there on the beaches of Normandy and to hear some of those heartbreaking stories and all the different things and life events that have gone on for over a hundred years and some of those really confetti moments and really difficult times and now working with the grandchildren of those families, I mean that's what I value the most. \n\nDavid Spray\nSure, yeah, it's what is the saying too. The biggest blessing is to be a blessing for others. Right For sure, and that comes through. Do you have an ideal client? Do they? Are they typically located geographically near you? Just because of the closeness Do you like to have with your clients, do they typically tend to be geographically close? \n\nJackie Campbell\nI would say most are in the, I would say, southeast region, but I do have clients all over the United States. I have some that live half a year over in Europe as well. So with technology there's no border anymore. With Zoom you're able to get on and I have a whiteboard, and with our Zoom meetings and we're able to actually share that. I really enjoy using whiteboards when I'm working with clients because I can kind of organize their thoughts a little bit and make sure that I'm understanding what they're looking to do. But it doesn't really matter. We work with clients all over the state of Florida. You know many really like to have that in-person meeting and sit across the table from you, especially as they get a little bit older. Yeah, but we do both for sure. \n\nDavid Spray\nOkay, yeah, that's good to know, because I have clients all over the country and from time to time they're looking for a CPA introduction. So that's good to know that there's no geographic constraints. But so, since there's no geographic constraints, though, what else are you looking for in a client? I assume you don't need any more high maintenance clients who don't do what you tell them, who are uncooperative and don't trust you. I guess you have enough of those clients already. Is that a safe assumption? \n\nJackie Campbell\nYes, that is correct. One of those is too many. \n\nDavid Spray\nOne of those is too many right. \n\nJackie Campbell\nThat's right. Yeah, that's an entirely different business model. It's funny, you know, like you, when you first start your business, it's what they call threshold clients. Right, it's like anyone who comes across the threshold. Yes, I can help them, and you do, and you're so grateful for that trust and confidence that they have in you to start with them. \n\nBut I really am passionate about those that are in the retirement red zone, that are looking for those real important upcoming milestones. One of my unique processes is taking someone through a timeline and you know it's a very visual timeline when are you at, Where's your spouse at, what are the next milestones coming up and what do we need to plan for in advance From a tax efficiency standpoint, from an income planning standpoint, from insurance, health and long-term care, legacy planning I mean all of those things kind of come together and then, of course, your investments what is the most appropriate amount of risk that you're trying to take or need to take? So it's just about pulling all those things together. So I would definitely say the retirement red zone and beyond, enjoying retirement. \n\nI'm really passionate about law enforcement and first responders. You know, growing up in a first responder family, my husband was in law enforcement. We were high school sweetheart setting. He's been in law enforcement as soon as he was able to carry a gun, so he wasn't able to buy bullets yet, but he was able to carry a gun and work in the jail. So he worked with the state of Florida. He was a state trooper and a deputy sheriff and you know, having that entire career, you see things from a different perspective. \n\nSo I'm really passionate about helping the first responder community my brother's in law enforcement, his entire career, my sister-in-law, my husband's dad, I've got a cousin. We're just, you know, a kind of you have one side of the family is on one side of the law. One side could be on the other side of the law, but you know, that's another real area of passion for us and an ideal client. And because they're paid so little for the sacrifice, you know, and there are decisions on their timeline, which is a totally different timeline than the normal average worker or business owner. So we also my husband has, we have a podcast that we do beyond the badge. \n\nDavid Spray\nOh yeah. \n\nJackie Campbell\nYeah. \n\nDavid Spray\nSo that's, great. \n\nJackie Campbell\nYeah. So I can't believe that I got him to be so vulnerable to actually do that. But yeah, I've had him on TV and a podcast so but he's actually really good at it. So, and only somebody who's lived that life can really, you know, talk and really you know correlate to someone who is has lived in that life and as a first responder. And then the other ideal client for us as a firm is someone who is an entrepreneur, business owner, entrepreneur. That is in that red zone. You know a lot of entrepreneurs never really want to retire, but it doesn't mean they don't sell off part of their business or have a succession plan so they can move on to something else that they're really passionate about or a different purpose at a higher level. But it just when they start making those changes, when they get to those milestone ages around 55, that's really where you know there's going to be some real key confetti moments and milestones or mile markers however you want to look at it that that are going to require some different thinking. \n\nDavid Spray\nI tell you your husband just sounds like like my kind of guy. But the thing that I'm most impressed with I'm always impressed with guys who marry their high school sweetheart, because that tells me there's a guy who says, you know what, if I, you know, screw this up and she ends up dating other guys in college, I may never get her back. You know I better go ahead and you know, you know, get this deal closed before she has a chance to realize that you know there's other guys out there. So I'm always impressed with guys who marry their high school sweetheart. I say that's very you know, that's very wise, beyond your years, when you recognize in high school your life partner is. \n\nJackie Campbell\nYeah, he was way wiser than I was. You know I'll give him credit for that one. \n\nDavid Spray\nWell, good. So, speaking of younger years, what do you wish you knew when you were 25? \n\nJackie Campbell\nOh gosh, I love that question. I think I like it better when I ask it, though. \n\nDavid Spray\nI'm sure I do too. \n\nJackie Campbell\nYou're wiser than you think you are and don't care about what everybody else thinks, and stop making up those stories about what you think that they're thinking. I think we overanalyze, we worry about others too much than to actually live our own dreams, and there are truly people that are never going to be happy for you, for your success and your achievements. But you know you can love them anyway, or you just don't tell them everything, but just don't lower your expectations for what you think you're capable of and what you want to achieve in life. \n\nDavid Spray\nYeah, I think that's great. I heard I was listening to a podcast and I remember the person said you know, they said we worry too much about what other people think. And they say, really it's a form of arrogance, because other people don't think about you. Everybody's so focused on themselves that, believe it or not, they really don't notice that you, that your shirt was wrinkled or you had some small stain on your shirt sleeve, like people are so self-absorbed they really don't care about what you're doing. So embrace that concept and realize that nobody really cares. Nobody's staying awake at night worrying about you. Know whether you're writing a book or not writing a book, or whether there was a typo in your book or so, yeah, I really, I think that's great. Trust your gut and don't worry about others. \n\nJackie Campbell\nIt's an insecurity for sure. I would say that there's definitely a lot of hard one wisdom. I think the one that stands out to me, you know, as I've gotten older, is your health is truly the number one, most important part of your retirement plan, and I don't think it's ever worded that way when you're younger just truly investing in your health, your skin, you know your core part of your body, you know it's not just the muscles, it's all of it, it's truly all of it. And I think if we're taught that that is the very first step in your retirement plan before saving money, that you know we could see things and enjoy retirement a little bit longer. \n\nDavid Spray\nThat's really great. What's the saying? That a healthy man has a thousand dreams and the unhealthy one has a one dream. \n\nJackie Campbell\nYeah, to be healthy. Yeah. \n\nDavid Spray\nSo well, that is really great If people want to reach out to you. What's the best way for somebody to reach out? I know you're on LinkedIn. Do you accept LinkedIn? You know connections. \n\nJackie Campbell\nYes, linkedin would be a great way to reach out to me. It's under Jackie or Jacqueline, j-a-c-q-e-l-y-n, and online you can reach out to me as well, mycamblincocom, or I can give a phone number if you'd like to give out Sure. \n\nDavid Spray\nYeah, go ahead 7365. So last question is there anything I didn't ask you that you wish I had? \n\nJackie Campbell\nI would say you pretty much covered it all. And one other thought of kind of where I'm going next and this really came out quite a bit the past few years during COVID was as a business owner or a CEO of a company. You know, typically, the larger the business, you're going to have some sort of succession plan already written and in place. But for most business owners they don't have a succession plan or a when file for themselves not just personally, but for the company and one thing that I am working on is a 100 day succession plan. \n\nDavid Spray\nOh, wow, okay. \n\nJackie Campbell\nAnd that's where you know somebody like me. I have other partners but, you know, really spelling out some of those key things that they don't know. They know a lot they're still going to have to. You know, hunt and peck for a few things that you know still are just my personal logins, my personal, where do I keep the keys, so to speak, and you know who is the. You know, like you said earlier, go see Jackie Campbell. She's going to be the one who has all the information, all the important details of what to do next. You know who is that next important person, what is the order of what should happen if something happened and I became unable to fill my role and or passed away? So I really think you know, business owners have a big responsibility to their family at a much higher level, and that's just a great way to kind of pull all those things together. \n\nDavid Spray\nThat's great and that, and correct me if I'm wrong, but that's that vaguely sounds familiar that I heard Dan Sullivan talk about that same concept. Does this sound like another Dan Sullivan inspired one, or am I reading too much into it? \n\nJackie Campbell\nYou might be reading too much into it. I don't know. I don't remember him saying anything about that, but I know he's always about building out 90 day plans. \n\nDavid Spray\nSure. \n\nJackie Campbell\nWe do a couple of things by a hundred days here at Campbell and company, so I don't know if that's something we picked out along the way or we just didn't like to do the quarterly plan. \n\nDavid Spray\nI'd say it's because you're an overachiever. If a 90 day plan is good, then a hundred day plan must be even better, right, jackie? \n\nJackie Campbell\nIt must be, and it gives you a little bit extra time to measure the results and benchmark. \n\nDavid Spray\nSo well, that is awesome. Well, I really appreciate you taking time out of your day and I really love your story and I know many of our listeners will find it interesting too. And again, thank you. Thank you for your time and I hope the weather in Southern Florida clears up the rest of the day for you. \n\nJackie Campbell\nWell, thank you, I think the thunderstorms are gone and probably bright skies coming. The great thing about the weather here in Florida, and I guess in Texas as well, is it'll change pretty often. \n\nDavid Spray\nThat is for sure. Well, hey, well, thanks again, jackie, and have a great day. \n\nJackie Campbell\nThank you, david, appreciate it. \n\nDavid Spray\nHi, this is David Spray, and welcome to another episode of the ICDisc Show. My guest today is Jackie Campbell from the Greater Tampa Bay Area. Jackie is a really interesting CPA who has a practice that also includes comprehensive financial planning and she has a 360 degree view of her client's financial situation. She has a really unique perspective and she's a podcast host with over 250 episodes on this subject. She has a radio show, she's frequently a guest on radio and TV and she's also authored a book. So there's just a lot of great nuggets on the importance of planning and making sure that, when your time is up, that your heirs will have a seamless transition financially and emotionally. I hope you enjoy this episode as much as I did. Good morning, jackie. How are you today, hi? \n\nJackie Campbell\ngood morning. I'm doing very well. If I can get past the summer storms here in Florida, I think we'll be doing good. \n\nDavid Spray\nYeah, I'm nearly a native of Houston, Texas, so I understand the Gulf Coast summer storms thing. What part of Florida are you calling in from? \n\nJackie Campbell\nI'm right, just north above the Tampa Bay area, right there in the center part of the state on the west coast. \n\nDavid Spray\nOh, okay, and are you a native of that part of the state? \n\nJackie Campbell\nI am a native of Florida, but I'm originally from the Panhandle, the Florida Panhandle, where the world's most beautiful beaches are up near Fort Walton Beach. \n\nDavid Spray\nNice, nice. And what brought you to the current part of Florida. \n\nJackie Campbell\nWow, my husband. We were married and he was in law enforcement, so he worked with the state of Florida. So he was transferred here for his very first station right outside of Tampa, and we've been here ever since, 37 years now. \n\nDavid Spray\nAnd I guess you were early enough in your career. It was easy to get started there, as anywhere. \n\nJackie Campbell\nOh yeah, I finished up here at University of South Florida right in Tampa and you know you start working the next thing. You know I had my own firm, one of the youngest females in the state of Florida having my own firm and you have kids and they start school and the rest is history. \n\nDavid Spray\nOh, that is awesome. So how long before you struck out on your own? \n\nJackie Campbell\nWell, I started with the CPA firm before I even knew what a CPA was, and that was right out of high school. I kind of found that as a summer job when. \n\nI was in college, yeah, and it just sort of kind of all came together. So I had quite a bit of experience in different bookkeeping and public accounting before I even had my college degree. So it was a few years, tried a few different things public and private and decided that public accounting was going to be more my line and kind of was a little bit ahead of schedule of having my own firm. You know have a lot of ideas and you know want to kind of do it your way. \n\nDavid Spray\nI guess, as they say, was there any specific event that prompted you to make the move? \n\nJackie Campbell\nWell, having two small children, I had this great idea. You know, sometimes we think we're smarter than we might be. I had two toddlers and I thought well, I'll get to spend more time with my kids if I have my own business. And you know, that lasted for about six months and you know, three employees. We finally had to get an office location and just kept growing and just kept going from there. \n\nDavid Spray\nWell, and I also would imagine, because my sense is that we started our career probably similar times. In fact, when we started our career, the firms weren't as kind of family friendly as they are now, were they? \n\nJackie Campbell\nThat's right. I mean they will train you very well, especially the larger firms, the regional firms. But they do expect you know a lot from you. \n\nDavid Spray\nSure. Okay, so you started your firm, and so why don't we just kind of talk a bit about the firm? What would you say, or what would your clients say, make your firm different than just the average CPA firm? \n\nJackie Campbell\nWell, I think just experience has a lot to do with it, right, I think that is one one thing that makes us different. One thing that I hear a lot from clients is just the trust that they have for us. And you know you would think that trust is really easy to earn or to build in relationships, but you know that's not necessarily the case, and we've been in business now for a little over 30 years, so that's a long time of working with not only one generation, but often we go into the second and third generation, whether it's a small business owner, an entrepreneur, or whether it's just an individual who's already been retired and enjoying retirement. So I would say that pretty much makes us unique. We are a planning firm. That, I think, is another thing that we do a little bit differently and we don't just look at history Most CPAs are historians looking at, you know, everything that happened. \n\nI think we have, and as part of my unique ability, is to be able to look at what's going on now, what the pattern was in the past and what that pattern is most likely going to be, as we move forward and plan forward and, you know, being strategic, being tactical, trying to help clients along the way as those major milestones and events come along, the planned ones and the unplanned. So I think that you know and that looking at the 360 degree lens is really important. We became duly licensed as financial advisors when we were allowed, so back in the late 90s was the first time a CPA actually could have more than one license because of the high fiduciary responsibility and CPA is always, as you know, been regarded as a really trusted advisor. So just looking at that full package and working with attorneys, collaborating with them, just to make sure that we get that full service and what the advisors are intending to happen, or the strategy, what that's going to be, actually does take place. \n\nDavid Spray\nYeah, I think that's great. I've always thought that really, since those opportunities presented themselves, that it was a great opportunity for CPA firms because you know they're already, you know the trusted advisor, you're already communicating with your clients, at least annually, just because of you know the tax return compliance, and it just seems so, so natural. But for whatever reason, it just seems like a lot of CPA firms have, you know, maybe dipped their toe in it but really weren't able to integrate those two practices very well. So, yeah, I can imagine why, from your client's perspective, it's great to have kind of this one stop shop. I mean, obviously the legal is still. You know you're partnering with somebody else for that, but at least two of the three legs of that stool you know, the CPA, the planning and financial advisory and the legal you're covering and under one roof, that sounds great. \n\nAnd then like how do you guys end up typically being like the quarterback, would you say, because you know, like when you look at like estate planning, obviously you're bringing in the attorneys for that, but it seems like so many plans are created but not implemented. Do you all have, you know, some role in that, or is that pretty much left to the client and the attorney to to implement those plans? \n\nJackie Campbell\nWell, I would say it depends on the individual. Some people are really entrepreneurial. They're always looking and learning and paying attention to what options or opportunities may be out there for them. So they will sometimes come with ideas. Sometimes it's just a matter of having conversations. You know, we all kind of have a plan. It's just very well laid out or it isn't Sure. But yeah, we do take that quarterback role. \n\nQuite often I had so many conversations through the years where someone would meet an attorney, they would have illegal documents, they would have a trust and then nothing would be titled in the trust. And then you have the financial advisor or the insurance advisor and they're having a certain plan or their certain tax ramifications of their transactions that they, you know, legally can't talk about and say, oh, I can't talk, I can't discuss taxation, You'll have to talk to your accountant about that, or tax preparer. And then as the CPA, we would end up, you know, kind of cleaning everything up, saying, wait, you have a trust, why isn't? Why aren't things? All your financial accounts titled that way? \n\nSo it's just about you know, pulling that plan together and making sure that is this the true plan and direction that you're going, and pulling that road map together. You know, I heard something the other day the one thing that doesn't know it's in the water is the fish. And it's the same story. It's hard for us to see even professional advisors. You can give really great advice and see a lot of pitfalls and potential challenges and the opportunities for someone else, but when it comes to yourself, you're just too close to the scenario. \n\nDavid Spray\nYeah, the classic cobbler in the shoes situation. Right, and then can you all. Are you also set up to actually, you know, in addition to the planning, actually you'll do the implementation as far as you know acquiring, you know, insurance products, you know for funding vehicles, and that as well. \n\nJackie Campbell\nWe do. Yeah, we're considered a full wealth management firm, so you know pretty much anything dealing with money. We're able to do it, or collaborate with someone and find a solution for it, or someone who actually specializes in that that either tax law or that strategy but we try to look at it as products at all. We don't address it that way. We look at it as what are we trying to get to and to achieve, and what is the best, most economical way to get there? \n\nDavid Spray\nNo, that that makes a lot of sense and it's great that you have all those capabilities under one umbrella, because I have seen firms that have a heavy planning focus but you know, are so focused on the independence that you know that they won't actually implement the products you know. So then you have to rely on, you know, a kind of a traditional commission, you know driven, you know insurance person, let's say, to do the implementation. And then that can be kind of tricky because you know you don't necessarily want to turn your client over to somebody who might have a, you know, a different, a more aggressive style than you do. So yeah, I think that's great that you just have the ability to really do it all and I think it speaks to that that. What do you call your approach? The 360? \n\nJackie Campbell\nYeah, the 360 degree complete planning. \n\nDavid Spray\nOkay, yeah, no, I can. It seems like a great, a great description for what you do, so talk to. So what I'd like to do now is shift gears. I'm really curious about all you do in the media world. \n\nJackie Campbell\nYou have a podcast, you have a radio show, you've authored a book which came first the radio show, the podcast, the book the radio show actually came first, been doing that for about nine or 10 years now I think it's a little over nine been doing radio in the Tampa Bay area. You know I grew up as someone who was really shy. You know my mom would always say, oh, just have to pull her from behind my skirt because I was always looking for a place to hide. And it's funny how the thing that you're afraid of most when you're younger is how you grow and develop and that's your spot, that you're supposed to be. And you know I think you're never really there. You're always trying to raise the bar a little bit. \n\nBut I love radio. I had someone that I worked with and they coached me along and really I think helped me find a voice for radio because I come, turns out, I had a lot of things to say. So you know, working with so many individuals and families and my own family and the hard one wisdom that we have it just makes it so natural and easy. And I think being able to actually pull multiple professions together and pull that full 360 together for someone is just to me that's so rewarding because not everybody can see multi-dimensional Aspects. So radio was first. We called our radio show beyond the money. \n\nOkay that's because it's really beyond the money. It's about what are you trying to get the freedom to do with your life or your business? What are you trying to grow into? Multiply and freedom of relationships, freedom of purpose those are things that we hear from Dan Sullivan, the founder and strategic coach. And and when you just really focus on you, what are you trying to get the freedom to do, not just the freedom from doing? I think it's a totally different mindset. \n\nDavid Spray\nSure, and is your radio show like the weekly show? \n\nJackie Campbell\nYeah, we have. We do air the same show on Saturday and on Sunday as well, and then we have Podcasts that came as a result a few years later, and that's the beyond the money podcast. \n\nDavid Spray\nOkay, so as far as the radio show. So what station is it on and what time is it come? On? Saturday and Sunday. \n\nJackie Campbell\nYeah, it's W X, j B, it's a local station and ninety nine point nine here in the Tampa Bay area. But you can't. I mean these days you can access everything all over the year. \n\nDavid Spray\nAnd then do you have calls Callers that call in with questions. Is that kind of the format? \n\nJackie Campbell\nWe do not take live calls because you know highly count compliance regulated industry. Oh sure, yeah, we don't do that, but sometimes they will call the radio station and they will leave a question for me to talk about. And I Do a live conversation on Wednesday mornings with the morning DJ just to talk about what's going on in our area and there's any changes and law changes and sort of just kind of finger on the pulse. \n\nDavid Spray\nWow, well, that's so, that's great. So that that ended up leading to the podcast, and so how do you view the podcast differently than the radio show? What are the kind of pros and cons of the podcast versus the the radio show? Or is the podcast just a rebroadcast of the radio show? \n\nJackie Campbell\nIt's kind of a combination. We have a little over 250 episodes on our podcast and it's a little bit of combination. Sometimes I have what we call on tour interviews. I've had the pleasure to interview Reba McIntyre, yeah, in Nevada and we talked about mama and the rope and pin and she's he's great. She's just who you see on TV. Who you see on stage is exactly who she is in person. Martina McBride you know quite a few others get the pleasure to go to Nashville here in a few weeks and Interview a few as well. So we do take some celebrity interviews and those are just more on a personal level. And then it could be some professionals that we work with, we collaborate with here in our area and we have them on as guests as well. We have a licensed mental health counselor, because you know Emotions and is certainly all about your financial picture for individuals and business owners, and you know we have a quite a few other professionals that we'll have on from time to time. \n\nDavid Spray\nOkay, that really sounds great. And then it sounds like the last piece of the media Stool was the bunk. Is that right? \n\nJackie Campbell\nYeah, this is something that I've been Thinking about for a while. You know it's. There's a concept called the 90 minute book and I said it took me nine years to actually it's 100%. But you know, sometimes things just happen when they're meant to be and this is just something. It's some of that really hard one wisdom that I was talking about. \n\nYou know, you don't really know how challenging it is to go through cleaning up Financial records from someone until you experience it up close and personal. And I've seen many families Do things right and I've seen the outcome of that and I've seen them Just have a total mess. Nobody knows where the keys are, literally and for figuratively, you know, for their financial life, and it's just such a stressful time, both you know, emotionally, physically and mentally. And then to try to figure out, put the puzzle together, I came up with a book. \n\nI have a what we call a hero package and my wind file came first. That came about eight years ago and that's a document storage system for how to gather all of your important documents and your passwords and you know who are your professional advisors and really what are the succession plan Steps that would need to take place. So sort of giving, like an owner's manual. You know how to run my life Without me if I'm not able to or not here. So just a real gift for your loved ones and your nexa can and your family members. \n\nDavid Spray\nSo I'm curious about that. Talk to me a little bit more. So you talk about the hero file and then you talked about something else when the my, when file. \n\nJackie Campbell\nWHEN You're having my southern accent sounds not sure which way to say it, but it's my wind file. It's when the time comes right. It's just a really go-to book. You know, we never know what's gonna happen, doesn't matter how old you are or how young you are. Sometimes life just happens, and it's just a really great way to collect all those things, and that was the very start of it. The book that I just released was be prepared, creating peace of mind for you and your loved ones, and it sort of ties it all together ideation behind it, my why, my personal why, and also just some Highlights of you know what to have in your black book or your lockbox, whatever you call it, just just to make it a little bit easier for those that you love and care about the most. \n\nDavid Spray\nSure, and I guess the one of the great things about your practice and your comprehensive, you know, 360 degree view of your clients lives Is if the only planning they do is just tell their loved ones to call Jackie, that probably get some, you know, a lot further ahead than they would be if they didn't have a Jackie, right. \n\nJackie Campbell\nThat's exactly the point and so many of my clients have said that. I just told them call this person right here and she will know everything, she will know. And you know, I just got another one of those calls this week from One of my clients. You know both. Both the parents Happen to be sick and not doing well and the kids came in from out of state and of course they knew Call Jackie Campbell and she'll be able to help you navigate through some of these things and work along with the attorney. And you just never know when that time is going to come. And that's I take that as an honor to be able to do that. \n\nAnother long-term client just passed away a few weeks ago, very, quite young, and you know the family is. You know we're actually going to be meeting in a few days here and going through some things. But you know I really value the relationships that I'm able to build with my clients and I think they're often at a much deeper level Because of the trust and because of going the extra step to. You know, beyond the money, not just how much money do you have, how to invest it, where to put it, do you have life insurance? Do you have your estate documents on order? Are you in compliance with the IRS? It's just really about thinking at a much more personal level with them and kind of always looking and planning ahead, because not everyone has that skill and ability. \n\nDavid Spray\nWell, it's a good thing that that you're a big fan of strategic coach and Dan Sullivan's Approach to life, because it doesn't sound like you're going to be able to retire anytime soon. It sounds like there's too many families depending on on you to just be able to just Decide you're done and just just appear tomorrow. Is that a fair assumption? \n\nJackie Campbell\nThat's a fair assumption. Yes, as long as you love what you're doing, you know there's really no reason to stop. It's truly about I. That's one thing I learned from Dan Sullivan is, you know, having whatever you're doing, your life is short and really enjoy what you're doing and have a purpose for what you're doing. And you know, compliance wasn't my thing. I mean I could do it. \n\nI started at a very young age and, you know, before Computers even did the tax returns for you. So you really learn the way with the pencil and the eraser, you know, as the numbers carried page to page. But Just being able to go that, that higher level, I just really Am blessed that I am able to take my unique abilities and just help somebody else kind of To tie those things up with a bow. I'm a big fan of enjoying life and confetti moments and you know people have this idea or ideal that they want this hallmark type life. And Okay, what do we need to do to work towards that? It's probably never going to be ideal, but enjoy the confetti moments that come along the way and celebrate them, because we don't know how many of those we're gonna have. \n\nDavid Spray\nThere, and what's the example of a confetti moment. I really like that expression. Like graduations, marriages, child or, you know, child being born. \n\nJackie Campbell\nYeah, well, those are the big ones, right, and those are the obvious ones that people Think about. They have dinner, they do flowers or balloons or whatever birthday cake. But it's also the smaller ones that come along the way. Maybe you're reaching a goal or a milestone or you're like, if you're a business owner, it's your largest quarter yet, or you've reached and achieved your dream. Check, it could be a lot of different things. Maybe you finally got the right team in place that you're able to take some true free time. It could be a lot of different things that go along. \n\nWe look for confetti all the time around here. We just had to find the ones that were easier to clean up because, no, we were having a mess. But you know, the last day of tax season, our staff is real, our team is just Loves the throw in the confetti. This year we celebrated our 30th year in business and just having that celebration you know, my family was there, team was there, their family and some of our long-term clients and just being able to share the appreciation and the gratitude that we have with them lots of confetti. It's just a lot of fun. \n\nDavid Spray\nNow, that's awesome, you'd mentioned your personal. Why, if it's not too personal, what is your personal why? \n\nJackie Campbell\nThat is when my dad was sick. You know you spend our. I had spent, you know, two-thirds of my career helping others that weren't related and they were. You know I built a relationship with them and helping them the parents, the moms, the dads, the grandparents get ready for the next generations and I had not really paid attention to my own family. You know the ones I love and care about the most and I guess I had it's just you always like wish you had done things. Oh, I should have done this, I should have done that. \n\nBut when my dad was ill, in the last 30 days of his life in the hospital, you know just realizing some things that should have been done and how difficult that was. You know my mom was the CFO of the family and she knew where everything was Any insurance, any medical record that the doctors asked for. My mom was able to go and pull it out of a file cabinet. She was really organized. My dad would not have had a clue where the passwords were, how to turn on the computer. He worked on the military base totally different career and mindset and most families have one CFO that pays the bills and does all the filing. And if you look at where we're at now, I guess 20 years ago we didn't have all the electronic files, so you were able to wait 30 days, wait 60 days and you're gonna get a letter from whatever account or safe deposit and you're gonna get an invoice or something in the mail. That doesn't happen anymore and we have so many things in the cloud on computers, on tablets, and if you don't have certain keys or pens or passwords, you can't even obtain obtain any of those records or documentation. So that was just a real big eye-opener that, wow. My dad probably isn't the only person that would have been in a jam and I would have had to really help comb through every piece of paper because I didn't know what my mom's filing system was. \n\nAnd you have this concept and this idea that your parents are gonna live forever and while he did pass away at a young age, the time goes by so quickly. So that was my personal experience. And I do remember when we were in the hospital and the nurse came in and said this room is in dire straits today. So whatever they need, they get. And I just thought dire straits. You're right, that is so true. You get to that dire straight point. And one more thing would just be unbearable to have to go find accounts and where's the money and is there life insurance? And many people, especially the older generations, they keep money and finances really close to the vest. So it's just a way of having let's talk, let's have that conversation and I'm just so blessed that the feedback that I've gotten from my family, my clients and those around me saying wow, I'm glad somebody's really brought this to my attention that you might need to leave a little bit of a cookie crumb trail for someone else behind you. \n\nDavid Spray\nOkay, so thank you for sharing that and, if I'm understanding you correctly, you're saying that before your dad's illness you'd been helping clients at a certain level. But then it really you experienced at first hand how difficult it can be to try to while you're dealing with end of life health issues but also dealing with layering onto that getting passwords and other stuff in order and you're saying that experience personally gave you kind of a newfound insight and passion to make sure that your clients were not in that situation. Does that about summarize it? \n\nJackie Campbell\nThat completely summarizes it, yeah. \n\nDavid Spray\nWell, that's, and how long ago was that? \n\nJackie Campbell\nThat was about 10 years ago. That happened and I knew I wanted to write a book but it took me a while to get to it. And I did get 80% of the book done. But it was the personal why that I couldn't get past making that and I thought about that for a while, off and on, and I thought, oh, I've got to get that done. It was on my list of goals every year finished my book and it's just a short read. It's not a very thick book. I'm not a big. I normally will skip chapters if it's a big book anyway, get the most important parts out of it. \n\nBut the main thing is to inspire people with this book and the final way I was able to get that executed was I realized that it wasn't about me, it wasn't about my dad, it wasn't about what I did or didn't do. \n\nIt was truly about helping others be the hero of their family, Because we really I would say the majority of the population wants to honor your parents, what they want to happen, and this is a way for them to keep their dignity you to keep your dignity in some tough decisions that you might have to make. But it's just a way to let your parents or your loved ones be the hero of their story and have that big handoff, that baton. That's just gonna be such a gift and blessing, and I don't know that somebody who receives it might realize how difficult it might have been otherwise. But you're working with clients since then and some that have children that live out of state or completely away and they just they don't even know where, how to open the garage, what the garage code is, or they're just not basically here. They don't know these things, and I have just seen so many examples of how this would have been just such a true blessing and a gift to who's next. \n\nDavid Spray\nAnd it's interesting, as you talk about the hero part, that's another reminds me of something that Dan Sullivan always says who do you want to be a hero to? Was that inspired by that question by Dan, or was it unrelated? \n\nJackie Campbell\nIt's definitely. I mean, I've been a strategic coach for about 10 years, so it's definitely had a significant influence in my thinking because, as he says, we're in the thinking business, so it's definitely part of it and it's just. I personally wish my dad was able to be the hero and have all those things done. My mom certainly still is the hero and she just has given me invaluable feedback on putting this together and some of the things that she's done for years. It's in several of my clients. I've been able to collaborate with them some long-term clients, our client advisory board and get some really great feedback from them and how they've kind of kept track of things and put it all together to really just kind of make it something. \n\nThat's one go-to place and we do have a digital version of it now as well the my Win File. The book goes along with it and we also have a for those that just like cheats. Cheats and checklists. We have a guarding your legacy checklist. So that's what we call the Hero Pack. It's just a system, a go-to system to really kind of pull things together for your loved ones. \n\nDavid Spray\nThat's awesome, by the way, if it makes you feel any better. I also teamed up with Stuart and his team from 90-Minute Books for my book, and it also took me many years to do a 90-Minute Book. The good news is, when I do my second one, it'll be not much more than 90 minutes, because now that I really understand that it's all about progress, not perfection it's, and, like you said, you're authoring the book as a resource to people, and every day that perfectionism slows down, good enough, there's people that could be benefiting from a good enough version. So, anyway, I just wanna let you know you're in good company. It also took me many years to get my 90-Minute Book done. \n\nJackie Campbell\nYeah, he did say I'm not alone. \n\nDavid Spray\nYeah no, I think so. I think I know the answer to this question, but I'd like to ask you anyway. So what do you get the most satisfaction from in your role, in your firm, in the way you've structured your role, what gives you the most satisfaction? \n\nJackie Campbell\nThat's a really great question. \n\nI think I'm really energized by being able to see things come together, not just having the conversation, not just talking, to hear myself talk, but to have someone that really values my input and my recommendations and will walk alongside me to actually get those executed. \n\nI think that is really the trust that I try to build and really value most. \n\nAnd I'm working now with a client that they've been clients for a long time and just really high ranking in the military, so super organized, very strategic, very tactical, and they're thinking and their operations and have worked with them for a long period of time. \n\nSo have worked with them, now their children and now the next, the third generation, with the grandchildren, and to be able to help someone set up their very first Roth IRA at 19 years old, it just melts my heart and it's like, oh, this is just such a great generational trend to build and you see all the bad things that happen, but just to see that positive thinking and growth that happens with those next generations. I just really enjoy that and worked with quite a few war veterans and from the Normandy days that still were there on the beaches of Normandy and to hear some of those heartbreaking stories and all the different things and life events that have gone on for over a hundred years and some of those really confetti moments and really difficult times and now working with the grandchildren of those families, I mean that's what I value the most. \n\nDavid Spray\nSure, yeah, it's what is the saying too. The biggest blessing is to be a blessing for others. Right For sure, and that comes through. Do you have an ideal client? Do they? Are they typically located geographically near you? Just because of the closeness you like to have with your clients, do they typically tend to be geographically close? \n\nJackie Campbell\nI would say most are in the, I would say, southeast region, but I do have clients all over the United States. I have some that live half a year over in Europe as well. So with technology there's no border anymore. With Zoom you're able to get on and I have a whiteboard, and with our Zoom meetings and we're able to actually share that. I really enjoy using whiteboards when I'm working with clients because I can kind of organize their thoughts a little bit and make sure that I'm understanding what they're looking to do. But it doesn't really matter. We work with clients all over the state of Florida. You know many really like to have that in-person meeting and sit across the table from you, especially as they get a little bit older. Yeah, but we do both for sure. \n\nDavid Spray\nOkay, yeah, that's good to know, because I have clients all over the country and from time to time they're looking for a CPA introduction. So that's good to know that there's no geographic constraints. But so, since there's no geographic constraints, though, what else are you looking for in a client? I assume you don't need any more high maintenance clients who don't do what you tell them, who are uncooperative and don't trust you. I guess you have enough of those clients already. Is that a safe assumption? \n\nJackie Campbell\nYes, that is correct. One of those is too many. \n\nDavid Spray\nOne of those is too many right. \n\nJackie Campbell\nThat's right. Yeah, that's an entirely different business model. It's funny, you know, like you, when you first start your business, it's what they call threshold clients. Right, it's like anyone who comes across the threshold. Yes, I can help them, and you do, and you're so grateful for that trust and confidence that they have in you to start with them. \n\nBut I really am passionate about those that are in the retirement red zone, that are looking for those real important upcoming milestones. One of my unique processes is taking someone through a timeline and you know it's a very visual timeline when are you at, where's your spouse at, what are the next milestones coming up and what do we need to plan for in advance from a tax efficiency standpoint, from an income planning standpoint, from insurance, health and long-term care, legacy planning I mean all of those things kind of come together. And then, of course, your investments what is the most appropriate amount of risk that you're trying to take or need to take? So it's just about pulling all those things together. So I would definitely say the retirement red zone and beyond, enjoying retirement. \n\nI'm really passionate about law enforcement and first responders. You know, growing up in a first responder family, my husband was in law enforcement. We were high school sweetheart setting. He's been in law enforcement as soon as he was able to carry a gun, so he wasn't able to buy bullets yet, but he was able to carry a gun and work in the jail. So he worked with the state of Florida. He was a state trooper and deputy sheriff and you know, having that entire career, you see things from a different perspective. \n\nSo I'm really passionate about helping the first responder community my brother's in law enforcement, his entire career. My sister-in-law, it's my husband's dad. I've got a cousin. We're just, you know, a kind of you have one side of the family is on one side of the law and one side could be on the other side of the law. But you know, that's another real area of passion for us and an ideal client. And because they're paid so little for the sacrifice, you know, and there are decisions on their timeline, which is a totally different timeline than the normal average worker or business owner. So we also my husband has, we have a podcast that we do beyond the badge. \n\nDavid Spray\nOh yeah. \n\nJackie Campbell\nYeah. \n\nDavid Spray\nSo that's great yeah. \n\nJackie Campbell\nSo I can't believe that I got him to be so vulnerable to actually do that. But yeah, I've had him on TV and podcasts so but he's actually really good at it. So, and only somebody who's lived that life can really, you know, talk and really you know, correlate to someone who is has lived in that life and as a first responder. And then the other ideal client for us as a firm is someone who is an entrepreneur, business owner, entrepreneur. That is in that red zone. You know a lot of entrepreneurs never really want to retire, but it doesn't mean they don't sell off part of their business or have a succession plan so they can move on to something else that they're really passionate about or a different purpose at a higher level. But it just when they start making those changes, when they get to those milestone ages around 55, that's really where you know there's going to be some real key confetti moments and milestones or mile markers however you want to look at it that that are going to require some different thinking. \n\nDavid Spray\nI tell you your husband just sounds like like my kind of guy. But the thing that I'm most impressed with I'm always impressed with guys who marry their high school sweetheart, because that tells me there's a guy who says, you know what, if I, you know, screw this up and she ends up dating other guys in college, I may never get her back. You know I better go ahead and you know, you know, get this deal closed before she has a chance to realize that you know there's other guys out there. So I'm always impressed with guys who marry their high school sweetheart. I say that's very you know, that's very wise, beyond your years, when you recognize in high school your life partner is. \n\nJackie Campbell\nYeah, he was way wiser than I was. You know I'll give him credit for that one. \n\nDavid Spray\nWell, good. So, speaking of younger years, what do you wish you knew when you were 25? \n\nJackie Campbell\nI love that question. I think I like it better when I ask it, though. \n\nDavid Spray\nSure, I do. \n\nJackie Campbell\nYou're wiser than you think you are and don't care about what everybody else thinks, and stop making up those stories about what you think that they're thinking. I think we overanalyze, we worry about others too much than to actually live our own dreams, and there are truly people that are never going to be happy for you, for your success and your achievements. But you know you can love them anyway, or you just don't tell them everything, but just don't lower your expectations for what you think you're capable of and what you want to achieve in life. \n\nDavid Spray\nYeah, I think that's great. I heard I was listening to a podcast and I remember the person said you know, they said we worry too much about what other people think. And they say, really it's a form of arrogance, because other people don't think about you. Everybody's so focused on themselves that, believe it or not, they really don't notice that you, that your shirt was wrinkled or you had some small stain on your shirt sleeve, like people are so self-absorbed they really don't care about what you're doing. So embrace that concept and realize that nobody really cares. Nobody's staying awake at night worrying about you. Know whether you're writing a book or not writing a book, or whether there was a typo in your book or so, yeah, I really, I think that's great. Trust your gut and don't worry about others. \n\nJackie Campbell\nIt's an insecurity for sure. I would say that there's definitely a lot of hard one wisdom. I think the one that stands out to me, you know, as I've gotten older, is your health is truly the number one, most important part of your retirement plan, and I don't think it's ever worded that way when you're younger just truly investing in your health, your skin, you know your core part of your body, you know it's not just the muscles, it's all of it, it's truly all of it. And I think if we're taught that that is the very first step in your retirement plan before saving money, that you know we could see things and enjoy retirement a little bit longer. \n\nDavid Spray\nOh, that's really great. What's the saying? That a healthy man has a thousand dreams and the unhealthy one has a one dream. Yeah, to be healthy. Yeah, so well, that is really great. If people want to reach out to you, what's the best way for somebody to reach out? I know you're on LinkedIn. Do you accept LinkedIn? You know connections? \n\nJackie Campbell\nYes, linkedin would be a great way to reach out to me. It's under Jackie or Jacqueline, j-a-c-q-e-l-y-n, and online you can reach out to me as well, mycamblincocom, or I can give a phone number if you'd like to give out. \n\nDavid Spray\nSure yeah, go ahead 7365. So last question is there anything I didn't ask you that you wish I had? \n\nJackie Campbell\nI would say you pretty much covered it all. And one other thought of kind of where I'm going next and this really came out quite a bit the past few years during COVID was as a business owner or a CEO of a company. You know, typically the larger the business, you're going to have some sort of succession plan already written and in place. But for most business owners they don't have a succession plan or a when file for themselves not just personally, but for the company and one thing that I am working on is a 100 day succession plan. \n\nDavid Spray\nOh, wow, okay. \n\nJackie Campbell\nThat's where you know somebody like me. I have other partners, but you know, really spelling out some of those key things that they don't know. They know a lot they're still going to have to. You know, hunt and peck for a few things that you know still are just my personal logins, my personal, where do I keep the keys, so to speak? And you know who is the you know, like you said earlier, go see Jackie Campbell. She's going to be the one who has all the information, all the important details of what to do next. You know who is that next important person, what is the order of what should happen if something happened and I became unable to fill my role and or passed away? So I really think, you know, business owners have a big responsibility to their family at a much higher level, and that's just a great way to kind of pull all those things together. \n\nDavid Spray\nThat's great and that, and correct me if I'm wrong, but that vaguely sounds familiar that I heard Dan Sullivan talk about that same concept. Does this sound like another Dan Sullivan inspired one, or am I reading too much into it? \n\nJackie Campbell\nYou might be reading too much into it. I don't know. I don't remember him saying anything about that, but I know he's always about building out 90 day plans. \n\nDavid Spray\nSure. \n\nJackie Campbell\nWe do a couple of things by a hundred days here at Campbell and Company, so I don't know if that's something we picked out along the way or we just didn't like to do the quarterly plan. \n\nDavid Spray\nI'd say it's because you're an overachiever. If a 90 day plan is good, then a hundred day plan must be even better, right, jackie? \n\nJackie Campbell\nMust be, and it gives you a little bit extra time to measure the results and benchmark. \n\nDavid Spray\nSo well, that is awesome. Well, I really appreciate you taking time out of your day and I really love your story and I know many of our listeners will find it interesting too. And again, thank you. Thank you for your time and I hope the weather in southern Florida clears up the rest of the day for you. \n\nJackie Campbell\nWell, thank you, I think the thunderstorms are gone and probably bright skies coming. That's the great thing about the weather here in Florida and I guess in Texas as well. As you know, it'll change pretty often. \n\nDavid Spray\nThat is for sure. Well, hey, well, thanks again, jackie, and have a great day. \n\nJackie Campbell\nThank you, david, appreciate it. Special Guest: Jackie Campbell.","content_html":"In today’s episode of the IC-DISC podcast, we sit down with Jackie Campbell, a savvy CPA, founding partner of a thriving firm in Tampa, and the engaging host of her own radio show and podcast, Beyond the Money. Jackie generously shares her firm's unique 360-degree approach to financial planning, propelling clients towards a secure future.
\n\nWe dig deep into the importance of believing in oneself, the necessity of having succession plans, and how to stay connected with clients. Jackie highlights the importance of strategic planning, building generational wealth, and her passion for helping those in the "retirement red zone" and first responders.
\n\n\n\n
SHOW HIGHLIGHTS
\n\n![](\"https://assets.fireside.fm/file/fireside-images/podcasts/images/d/d61cedee-227d-47c8-8d74-3407972d4afc/guests/8/850acfb6-37dd-489c-a7ae-b05754bd1d57/avatar_small.jpg?v=0\"){kind=avatar} | \nJackie Campbell | \n
(AI transcript provided as supporting material and may contain errors)
\n\nJackie Campbell
\nI'm doing ve past the summer storms, he will be doing good yeah.
David Spray
\na native of Houston, texas, the Gulf Coast, summer sto part of florida, are you?
Jackie Campbell
\nI'm right, just north abo right there in the center, the west coast.
David Spray
\nOkay, and that part of the state.
Jackie Campbell
\nI but I'm originally from t florida panhandle, where t beaches are up near Fort nice, and what brought yo part of florida. Wow, my and he was in law enforci with the state of florida here for his very first s of Tampa and we've been h 10 years now.
David Spray
\nAnd I guess in your career it was z started there as anywhere up here at University of in Tampa and you know it working.
Jackie Campbell
\nThe next thing y firm one of the youngest state of florida having m have kids and they start history.
David Spray
\nOh, that is awes before you. You, you struck.
Jackie Campbell
\nWell, I started with the. Even knew what a CPA was high school. I kind of fou job when I was in college sort of kind of all, came bit of experience in diff and public accounting be had my college sugary, so a few different things p and decided that public a more my line and kind of head of schedule of havin a lot of ideas and you kn it your way, I guess is t any specific event that the move or well, having t had this great idea, you think we're smarter than two toddlers and I thought more time with my kids.
David Spray
\nI and you know that lasti and you know three employ to get an office locatiin and just kept going from would imagine, because I m started our career probab, back when we started our weren't as kind of family are now, or they that that will train you very well.
Jackie Campbell
\nLarger firms, the regional, expect you know a lot f.
David Spray
\nOkay, so you started your. Why don't we just kind of the firm? What would you, your clients say, make your than just the average CPA?
Jackie Campbell
\nthink just experience has right. I think that is on is different. One thing t clients is just the trust and you know you would t really easy to earn or to, but you know that's not, and we've been in busines over 30 years so that's working with not only one. We go into the second and whether it's a small busi or whether it's just an, I already been retired and so I would say that pretty, we are a planning, firm th thing that we do a little. We don't just look at hist, our historians looking at happen.
I think we have an unique ability is to be a going on now what the pa and what that pattern is, be moved forward and plan strategic, being tactical along the way as those ma come along the planned on. So I think that you know the 360 degree lens is re became duly licensed as f. We were allowed so back the first time a CPA acti than one license because a responsibility and the know been regarded as a. So just looking at that f with attorneys, collabori, make sure that we get tha and what the advisors are, the strategy, what that' does take place.
\n\nDavid Spray
\nYeah, I I've always thought that presented themselves that for CPA firms because you know the trusted advisere communicating with your cl annually just because of compliance and it just se for whatever reason it j of CPA firms have maybe d but really weren't able t practices very well. So y life from your client's p to have kind of this one. Obviously the legal is st with somebody else for th three legs of that stool, the planning and financia, the legal you're covering. That sounds great and th guys end up typically bei, would you say, because yo at like a state planning in the attorneys for that many plans are created. B would do you all have you that, or is that pretty much and the attorney to to imp.
Jackie Campbell
\nI would say it depends on. Some people are really n always looking and learni what options or oppurtunit for them, so they will su ideas. Sometimes it's jus conversations. You know a plan, it's just very we isn't sure. But yeah, we role. Quite often I had s through the years where s an attorney, they would h, they would have a trust a be titled in the trust, a advisor or the insurance having a certain plan or ramifications of their t legally can't talk about, I can't talk, I can't dis to talk to your accountso prepare and then as the C kind of cleaning everything. Wait, you have a trust W all your financial account. It's just about pulling t and making sure that is t in direction that you're that road mount together. The other day, the one th it's in the water is the. The same story. It's hard. Professional advisors you advice and see a lot of p challenges and the oppurt when it comes to yourself, to the scenario.
David Spray
\nYeah th the shoes situation right, you all are. You also set, in addition to the planin, the implementation, as far you know, insurance prode funding vehicles in that.
Jackie Campbell
\nYeah, we're considered a firm. So you know, pretty with money we're able to with someone and find a s, someone who actually spea either tax law or that str, to look at it as products. It that way we look at I trying to get to and to a best, most economical way that makes a lot of sense.
David Spray
\nYou have all those capabil umbrella because I have s a heavy planning focus b on the independence that actually implement the pro. You have to rely on you, commission, you know dr person let's say to do t, then that can be kind of know, you don't necessarily client over to somebody h a more aggressive style th. I think that's great that to really do it all. And to that that, what do you? The 360?
Jackie Campbell
\nYeah, the 360 planning.
David Spray
\nOkay, yeah, no, like a great, a great dis you do so talk to. So w now shift gears. I'm rea you do. In the media world you have a radio show y which came first, the rad the book the radio show been doing that for about.
Jackie Campbell
\nI think it's a little over radio in the Tampa Bay area, as someone who was really mom would always say oh, her from behind my skirt looking for a place to h. Funny how the thing that most when you're younger develop and that's your s to be and you know I th there. You're always tryi a little bit but I love that I work with and they and really I think help for radio because I come a lot of things to say S so many individuals and f family and the hard one w. It just makes it so natu. Able to actually pull multiple professions together and pull that full Three sixty together for someone is just it. To me that's so rewarding because not everybody can see multi dimensional aspects.
Radio was first. We called our radio show beyond the money. That's because it's really beyond the money. It's about what are you trying to get the freedom to do with your life or your business? What are you trying to grow into? Multiply and freedom of relationships, freedom of purpose those are things that we hear from Dan Sullivan, the founder and strategic coach and it. And when you just really focus on you, what are you trying to get the freedom to do, not just the freedom from doing. I think it's a totally different mindset.
\n\nDavid Spray
\nSure is your radio show like the weekly show.
Jackie Campbell
\nYeah, we have. We do air the same show on Saturday and on Sunday as well, and then we have podcast that came as a result a few years later, and that's the beyond the money podcast.
David Spray
\nOkay, so as far as the radio show. So what station is it on and what time is it come? On? Saturday and Sunday.
Jackie Campbell
\nYeah, it's W X, j B, it's a local station and ninety nine point nine here in the Tampa Bay area. But you can I mean these days you can access everything all over.
David Spray
\nAnd then do you have calls callers that call in with questions. Is that kind of the format?
Jackie Campbell
\nWe do not take live calls because highly count compliance, regulated industry. Oh sure, we don't do that. But sometimes they will call the radio station and they will leave a question for me to talk about. And I do a live conversation on Wednesday mornings with the morning DJ just to talk about what's going on in our area and if there's any changes in law changes and sort of just kind of finger on the polls.
David Spray
\nWow, that's so, that's great. So that that ended up leading to the podcast. And so how do you view the podcast differently than the radio show? What are the kind of pros and cons of the podcast versus the radio show? Or is the podcast just a rebroadcast of the radio show?
Jackie Campbell
\nIt's kind of a combination. We have a little over 250 episodes on our podcast and it's a little bit of combination. Sometimes I have what we call on tour interviews. I've had the pleasure to interview Reba McIntyre, yeah, in Nevada, and we talked about mama and the rope and pen and she's he's great she's just who you see on TV.
Who you see on stage is exactly who she is in person Martina McBride. You know quite a few others get the pleasure to go to Nashville here in a few weeks and interview a few as well. So we do take some celebrity interviews and those are just more on a personal level, and then it could be some professionals that we work with, we collaborate with here in our area and we have them on as guests as well. We have a licensed mental health counselor, because you know emotions and is certainly all about your financial picture for individuals and business owners, and we have a quite a few other professionals that will have on from time to time.
\n\nDavid Spray
\nOkay, that really sounds great, and then it sounds like the last piece of the media stool was the book. Is that right?
Jackie Campbell
\nYeah, this is something that I've been thinking about for a while. You know what it's. There's a concept called the 90 minute book and I said it took me nine years to actually hit 100%. But you know, sometimes things just happen when they're meant to be and this is just something. It's some of that really hard one wisdom that I was talking about.
You know, you don't really know how challenging it is to go through cleaning up Financial records from someone until you experience it up close and personal.
\n\nAnd I've seen many families do things right and I've seen the outcome of that and I've seen them Just have a total mess. Nobody knows where the keys are, literally and for figuratively, you know, for their financial life, and it's just such a stressful time both you know, emotionally, physically and mentally, and then Figure out and put the puzzle together. I came up with a book I have a what we call a hero package and my wind file came first. That came about eight years ago and that's a document storage system For how to gather all of your important documents and your passwords and you know who are your professional advisors and really what are the succession plan steps that would need to take place. So sort of giving, like an owner's manual. You know how to run my life without me if I'm not able to or not here. So just a real gift for your loved ones and your next to can and your family members.
\n\nDavid Spray
\nSo I'm curious about that. Talk to me a little bit more. So you talk about the hero file, and then you talked about something else when my wind file W H E N. You, having my southern accents, sounds not sure which way to say it but it's my wind file when the time comes right.
Jackie Campbell
\nIt's just a really go to book. We never know what's going to happen, doesn't matter how old you are, how young you are sometimes life just happens, and it's just a really great way to collect all those things, and that was the very start of it. The book that I just released was be prepared, creating peace of mind for you and your loved ones, and it sort of ties it all together ideation behind it, my why, my personal why, and also just some highlights of you know what to have in your black book or your lock box, whatever you call it, just just to make it a little bit easier for those that you love and care about the most.
David Spray
\nSure, and I guess the one of the great things about your practice and your comprehensive, you know, 360 degree view of your clients lives is if the only planning they do is just tell their loved ones to call Jackie, that probably get some, you know, a lot further ahead than they would be if they didn't have a Jackie, right.
Jackie Campbell
\nThat's exactly the point and so many of my clients have said that. I just told them call this person right here and she will know everything, she will know. And you know I just got another one of those calls this week from one of my clients. You know both. Both the parents happen to be sick and not doing well and the kids came in from out of state and of course they knew, called Jackie Campbell and she'll be able to help you navigate through some of these things and work along with the attorney, and you just never know when that time is going to come. And that's I take that as an honor to be able to do that.
Another long term client just passed away a few weeks ago, very, quite young, and you know the family is. You know we're actually going to be meeting in a few days here and going through some of the things that we've been doing. You know I really value the relationships that I'm able to build with my clients and I think they're often at a much deeper level because of the trust and because of going the extra step to be on the money not just how much money do you have, how to invest it, where to put it, do you have life insurance, do you have your state documents or are you in compliance with the IRS? It's just really about thinking at a much more personal level with them and kind of always looking and planning ahead, because not everyone has that skill and ability.
\n\nDavid Spray
\nWell, it's a good thing that that you're a big fan of strategic coach and Dan Sullivan's approach to life, because it doesn't sound like you're going to be able to retire anytime soon. It sounds like there's too many families depending on on you to just be able to just decide you're done and just disappear tomorrow. Is that a fair assumption?
Jackie Campbell
\nThat's a fair assumption. Yes, as long as you love what you're doing, you know there's really no reason to stop. It's truly about that's one thing I learned from Dan Sullivan is, you know, having whatever you're doing, your life is short and really enjoy what you're doing and have a purpose for what you're doing. And you know, compliance wasn't my thing. I mean I could do it.
I started at a very young age and, you know, before computers even did the tax returns for you. So you really learn With the pencil and the eraser, you know, as the numbers carried page to page. But just being able to go that, that higher level, I just really am blessed that I am able to take my unique abilities and just help somebody else kind of tie those things up with a bow. I'm a big fan of enjoying life and confetti moments and you know people have this idea or ideal that they want this hallmark type life. And OK, what do we need to do to work towards that? It's probably never going to be ideal, but enjoy the confetti moments that come along the way and celebrate them, because we don't know how many of those we're going to have.
\n\nDavid Spray
\nWhat's the example of a confetti moment? I really like that expression like graduations, marriages, child or, you know, child being born.
Jackie Campbell
\nYeah, well, those are the big ones, right, and those are the obvious ones that people think about. They have dinner, they do flowers or balloons or whatever birthday cake. But it's also the smaller ones that come along the way. Maybe you're reaching a goal or a milestone or you're like, if you're a business owner, it's your largest quarter yet, or you've reached your dreams. Check, it could be a lot of different things. Maybe you finally got the right team in place that you're able to take some true free time. It could be a lot of different things that go along.
We look for confetti all the time around here. We just had to find the ones that were easier to clean up because we were having a mess. But you know, the last day of tax season, our staff is real, our team is just loves the throw in the confetti. This year we celebrated our 30th year in business and just having that celebration you know, my family was there, team was there, their family and some of our long term clients and just being able to share the appreciation and the gratitude that we have with them confetti just a lot of fun.
\n\nDavid Spray
\nThat's awesome. You mentioned your personal. Why, if it's not too personal, what is your personal why?
Jackie Campbell
\nThat is when my dad was sick. You know you spend our I had spent, you know, two thirds of my career helping others that weren't related, and they were. You know I built a relationship with them and helping them the parents, the moms, the dads, the grandparents get ready for the next generations and I had not really paid attention to my own family, the ones I love and care about the most, and I guess I had it's just you always like wish you had done things. I should have done this. I should have done that when my dad was ill, in the last 30 days of his life in the hospital. You just realizing some things that should have been done and how difficult that was.
You know my mom was the CFO of the family and she knew where everything was Any insurance, any medical record that the doctors asked for. My mom was able to go and pull it out of a file cabinet. She was really organized. My dad would not have had a clue where the passwords were, how to turn on the computer. He worked on the military base totally different career and mindset and most families have one CFO that pays the bills and does all the filing. And if you look at where we're at now. I guess 20 years ago we didn't have all the electronic files, so you were able to wait 30 days, wait 60 days and you're gonna get a letter from whatever account or safe deposit and you're gonna get an invoice or something in the mail. That doesn't happen anymore and we have so many things in the cloud on computers, on tablets, and if you don't have certain keys or pens or passwords, you can't even obtain obtain any of those records or documentation.
\n\nSo that was just a real big eye-opener that, wow, my dad probably isn't the only person that would have been in a jam and I would have had to really help comb through every piece of paper because I didn't know what my mom's filing system was. And you have this concept and this idea that your parents are gonna live forever and while he did pass away at a young age, the time goes by so quickly. So that was my personal experience. And I do remember when we were in the hospital and the nurse came in and said this room is in dire straits today. So whatever they need, they get.
\n\nAnd I just thought, dire straits. You're right, that is so true. You get to that dire straight point. And one more thing would just be unbearable to have to go find accounts and where's the money and is there life insurance? And many people, especially the older generations, they keep money and finances really close to the vest. So it's just a way of having let's talk, let's have that conversation, and I'm just so blessed that the feedback that I've gotten from my family, my clients and those around me saying wow, I'm glad somebody's really brought this to my attention that you might need to leave a little bit of a cookie crumb trail for someone else behind you.
\n\nDavid Spray
\nOkay, so thank you for sharing that and, if I'm understanding you correctly, you're saying that before your dad's illness you'd been helping clients at a certain level. But then it really you experienced at first hand how difficult it can be to try to while you're dealing with end of life health issues but also dealing with layering onto that getting passwords and other stuff in order and you're saying that experience personally gave you kind of a newfound insight and passion to make sure that your clients were not in that situation. Does that about summarize it?
Jackie Campbell
\nThat completely summarizes it, yeah.
David Spray
\nWell, that's, and how long ago was that?
Jackie Campbell
\nThat was about 10 years ago. That happened and I knew I wanted to write a book but it took me a while to get to it. And I did get 80% of the book done. But it was the personal why that I couldn't get past making that and I thought about that for a while, off and on, and I thought, oh, I've got to get that done. It was on my list of goals every year finished my book and it's just a short read. It's not a very thick book. I'm not a big. I normally will skip chapters if it's a big book anyway, get the most important parts out of it.
But the main thing is to inspire people with this book and the final way I was able to get that executed was I realized that it wasn't about me, it wasn't about my dad, it wasn't about what I did or didn't do.
\n\nIt was truly about helping others be the hero of their family, Because we really I would say the majority of the population wants to honor your parents, what they want to happen, and this is a way for them to keep their dignity you to keep your dignity in some tough decisions that you might have to make. But it's just a way to let your parents or your loved ones be the hero of their story and have that big handoff, that baton. That's just gonna be such a gift and blessing, and I don't know that somebody who receives it might realize how difficult it might have been otherwise. But you're working with clients since then and some that have children that live out of state or completely away and they just they don't even know where, how to open the garage, what the garage code is, or they're just not basically here. They don't know these things, and I have just seen so many examples of how this would have been just such a true blessing and a gift to who's next.
\n\nDavid Spray
\nAnd it's interesting, as you talk about the hero part, that's another reminds me of something that Dan Sullivan always says who do you want to be a hero to? Was that inspired by that question by Dan, or was it unrelated?
Jackie Campbell
\nIt's definitely. I mean, I've been a strategic coach for about 10 years so it's definitely had a significant influence in my thinking because, as he says, we're in the thinking business, so it's definitely part of it and it's just. I personally wish my dad was able to be the hero and have all those things done. My mom certainly still is the hero and she just has given me invaluable feedback on putting this together and some of the things that she's done for years. It's in several of my clients. I've been able to collaborate with them some long-term clients, our client advisory board and get some really great feedback from them and how they've kind of kept track of things and put it all together to really just kind of make it something.
That's one go-to place and we do have a digital version of it now as well the my Winfile. The book goes along with it, and we also have a for those that just like cheats. Cheats and checklists. We have a guarding your legacy checklist. So that's what we call the Hero Pack. It's just a system, a go-to system to really kind of pull things together for your loved ones.
\n\nDavid Spray
\nThat's awesome, by the way, if it makes you feel any better. I also teamed up with Stuart and his team from 90-Minute Books for my book, and it also took me many years to do a 90-Minute Book. The good news is, when I do my second one, it'll be not much more than 90 minutes, because now that I really understand that it's all about progress, not perfection it's, and, like you said, you're authoring the book as a resource to people, and every day that perfectionism slows down, good enough, there's people that could be benefiting from a good enough version. So, anyway, I just wanna let you know you're in good company. It also took me many years to get my 90-Minute Book done.
Jackie Campbell
\nYeah, he did say I'm not alone.
David Spray
\nYeah no, I think so. I think I know the answer to this question, but I'd like to ask you anyway. So what do you get the most satisfaction from in your role, in your firm, in the way you've structured your role, what gives you the most satisfaction?
Jackie Campbell
\nThat's a really great question.
I think I'm really energized by being able to see things come together, not just having the conversation, not just talking, to hear myself talk, but to have someone that really values my input and my recommendations and will walk alongside me to actually get those executed.
\n\nI think that is really the trust that I try to build and really value most.
\n\nAnd I'm working now with a client that they've been clients for a long time and just really high ranking in the military, so super organized, very strategic, very tactical, and they're thinking and their operations and I've worked with them for a long period of time, so I've worked with them, now their children and now the next, the third generation, with the grandchildren.
\n\nAnd to be able to help someone set up their very first Roth IRA at 19 years old, it just melts my heart and it's like, oh, this is just such a great generational trend to build and you see all the bad things that happen, but just to see that positive thinking and growth that happens with those next generations. I just really enjoy that and worked with quite a few war veterans and from the Normandy days that still were there on the beaches of Normandy and to hear some of those heartbreaking stories and all the different things and life events that have gone on for over a hundred years and some of those really confetti moments and really difficult times and now working with the grandchildren of those families, I mean that's what I value the most.
\n\nDavid Spray
\nSure, yeah, it's what is the saying too. The biggest blessing is to be a blessing for others. Right For sure, and that comes through. Do you have an ideal client? Do they? Are they typically located geographically near you? Just because of the closeness Do you like to have with your clients, do they typically tend to be geographically close?
Jackie Campbell
\nI would say most are in the, I would say, southeast region, but I do have clients all over the United States. I have some that live half a year over in Europe as well. So with technology there's no border anymore. With Zoom you're able to get on and I have a whiteboard, and with our Zoom meetings and we're able to actually share that. I really enjoy using whiteboards when I'm working with clients because I can kind of organize their thoughts a little bit and make sure that I'm understanding what they're looking to do. But it doesn't really matter. We work with clients all over the state of Florida. You know many really like to have that in-person meeting and sit across the table from you, especially as they get a little bit older. Yeah, but we do both for sure.
David Spray
\nOkay, yeah, that's good to know, because I have clients all over the country and from time to time they're looking for a CPA introduction. So that's good to know that there's no geographic constraints. But so, since there's no geographic constraints, though, what else are you looking for in a client? I assume you don't need any more high maintenance clients who don't do what you tell them, who are uncooperative and don't trust you. I guess you have enough of those clients already. Is that a safe assumption?
Jackie Campbell
\nYes, that is correct. One of those is too many.
David Spray
\nOne of those is too many right.
Jackie Campbell
\nThat's right. Yeah, that's an entirely different business model. It's funny, you know, like you, when you first start your business, it's what they call threshold clients. Right, it's like anyone who comes across the threshold. Yes, I can help them, and you do, and you're so grateful for that trust and confidence that they have in you to start with them.
But I really am passionate about those that are in the retirement red zone, that are looking for those real important upcoming milestones. One of my unique processes is taking someone through a timeline and you know it's a very visual timeline when are you at, Where's your spouse at, what are the next milestones coming up and what do we need to plan for in advance From a tax efficiency standpoint, from an income planning standpoint, from insurance, health and long-term care, legacy planning I mean all of those things kind of come together and then, of course, your investments what is the most appropriate amount of risk that you're trying to take or need to take? So it's just about pulling all those things together. So I would definitely say the retirement red zone and beyond, enjoying retirement.
\n\nI'm really passionate about law enforcement and first responders. You know, growing up in a first responder family, my husband was in law enforcement. We were high school sweetheart setting. He's been in law enforcement as soon as he was able to carry a gun, so he wasn't able to buy bullets yet, but he was able to carry a gun and work in the jail. So he worked with the state of Florida. He was a state trooper and a deputy sheriff and you know, having that entire career, you see things from a different perspective.
\n\nSo I'm really passionate about helping the first responder community my brother's in law enforcement, his entire career, my sister-in-law, my husband's dad, I've got a cousin. We're just, you know, a kind of you have one side of the family is on one side of the law. One side could be on the other side of the law, but you know, that's another real area of passion for us and an ideal client. And because they're paid so little for the sacrifice, you know, and there are decisions on their timeline, which is a totally different timeline than the normal average worker or business owner. So we also my husband has, we have a podcast that we do beyond the badge.
\n\nDavid Spray
\nOh yeah.
Jackie Campbell
\nYeah.
David Spray
\nSo that's, great.
Jackie Campbell
\nYeah. So I can't believe that I got him to be so vulnerable to actually do that. But yeah, I've had him on TV and a podcast so but he's actually really good at it. So, and only somebody who's lived that life can really, you know, talk and really you know correlate to someone who is has lived in that life and as a first responder. And then the other ideal client for us as a firm is someone who is an entrepreneur, business owner, entrepreneur. That is in that red zone. You know a lot of entrepreneurs never really want to retire, but it doesn't mean they don't sell off part of their business or have a succession plan so they can move on to something else that they're really passionate about or a different purpose at a higher level. But it just when they start making those changes, when they get to those milestone ages around 55, that's really where you know there's going to be some real key confetti moments and milestones or mile markers however you want to look at it that that are going to require some different thinking.
David Spray
\nI tell you your husband just sounds like like my kind of guy. But the thing that I'm most impressed with I'm always impressed with guys who marry their high school sweetheart, because that tells me there's a guy who says, you know what, if I, you know, screw this up and she ends up dating other guys in college, I may never get her back. You know I better go ahead and you know, you know, get this deal closed before she has a chance to realize that you know there's other guys out there. So I'm always impressed with guys who marry their high school sweetheart. I say that's very you know, that's very wise, beyond your years, when you recognize in high school your life partner is.
Jackie Campbell
\nYeah, he was way wiser than I was. You know I'll give him credit for that one.
David Spray
\nWell, good. So, speaking of younger years, what do you wish you knew when you were 25?
Jackie Campbell
\nOh gosh, I love that question. I think I like it better when I ask it, though.
David Spray
\nI'm sure I do too.
Jackie Campbell
\nYou're wiser than you think you are and don't care about what everybody else thinks, and stop making up those stories about what you think that they're thinking. I think we overanalyze, we worry about others too much than to actually live our own dreams, and there are truly people that are never going to be happy for you, for your success and your achievements. But you know you can love them anyway, or you just don't tell them everything, but just don't lower your expectations for what you think you're capable of and what you want to achieve in life.
David Spray
\nYeah, I think that's great. I heard I was listening to a podcast and I remember the person said you know, they said we worry too much about what other people think. And they say, really it's a form of arrogance, because other people don't think about you. Everybody's so focused on themselves that, believe it or not, they really don't notice that you, that your shirt was wrinkled or you had some small stain on your shirt sleeve, like people are so self-absorbed they really don't care about what you're doing. So embrace that concept and realize that nobody really cares. Nobody's staying awake at night worrying about you. Know whether you're writing a book or not writing a book, or whether there was a typo in your book or so, yeah, I really, I think that's great. Trust your gut and don't worry about others.
Jackie Campbell
\nIt's an insecurity for sure. I would say that there's definitely a lot of hard one wisdom. I think the one that stands out to me, you know, as I've gotten older, is your health is truly the number one, most important part of your retirement plan, and I don't think it's ever worded that way when you're younger just truly investing in your health, your skin, you know your core part of your body, you know it's not just the muscles, it's all of it, it's truly all of it. And I think if we're taught that that is the very first step in your retirement plan before saving money, that you know we could see things and enjoy retirement a little bit longer.
David Spray
\nThat's really great. What's the saying? That a healthy man has a thousand dreams and the unhealthy one has a one dream.
Jackie Campbell
\nYeah, to be healthy. Yeah.
David Spray
\nSo well, that is really great If people want to reach out to you. What's the best way for somebody to reach out? I know you're on LinkedIn. Do you accept LinkedIn? You know connections.
Jackie Campbell
\nYes, linkedin would be a great way to reach out to me. It's under Jackie or Jacqueline, j-a-c-q-e-l-y-n, and online you can reach out to me as well, mycamblincocom, or I can give a phone number if you'd like to give out Sure.
David Spray
\nYeah, go ahead 7365. So last question is there anything I didn't ask you that you wish I had?
Jackie Campbell
\nI would say you pretty much covered it all. And one other thought of kind of where I'm going next and this really came out quite a bit the past few years during COVID was as a business owner or a CEO of a company. You know, typically, the larger the business, you're going to have some sort of succession plan already written and in place. But for most business owners they don't have a succession plan or a when file for themselves not just personally, but for the company and one thing that I am working on is a 100 day succession plan.
David Spray
\nOh, wow, okay.
Jackie Campbell
\nAnd that's where you know somebody like me. I have other partners but, you know, really spelling out some of those key things that they don't know. They know a lot they're still going to have to. You know, hunt and peck for a few things that you know still are just my personal logins, my personal, where do I keep the keys, so to speak, and you know who is the. You know, like you said earlier, go see Jackie Campbell. She's going to be the one who has all the information, all the important details of what to do next. You know who is that next important person, what is the order of what should happen if something happened and I became unable to fill my role and or passed away? So I really think you know, business owners have a big responsibility to their family at a much higher level, and that's just a great way to kind of pull all those things together.
David Spray
\nThat's great and that, and correct me if I'm wrong, but that's that vaguely sounds familiar that I heard Dan Sullivan talk about that same concept. Does this sound like another Dan Sullivan inspired one, or am I reading too much into it?
Jackie Campbell
\nYou might be reading too much into it. I don't know. I don't remember him saying anything about that, but I know he's always about building out 90 day plans.
David Spray
\nSure.
Jackie Campbell
\nWe do a couple of things by a hundred days here at Campbell and company, so I don't know if that's something we picked out along the way or we just didn't like to do the quarterly plan.
David Spray
\nI'd say it's because you're an overachiever. If a 90 day plan is good, then a hundred day plan must be even better, right, jackie?
Jackie Campbell
\nIt must be, and it gives you a little bit extra time to measure the results and benchmark.
David Spray
\nSo well, that is awesome. Well, I really appreciate you taking time out of your day and I really love your story and I know many of our listeners will find it interesting too. And again, thank you. Thank you for your time and I hope the weather in Southern Florida clears up the rest of the day for you.
Jackie Campbell
\nWell, thank you, I think the thunderstorms are gone and probably bright skies coming. The great thing about the weather here in Florida, and I guess in Texas as well, is it'll change pretty often.
David Spray
\nThat is for sure. Well, hey, well, thanks again, jackie, and have a great day.
Jackie Campbell
\nThank you, david, appreciate it.
David Spray
\nHi, this is David Spray, and welcome to another episode of the ICDisc Show. My guest today is Jackie Campbell from the Greater Tampa Bay Area. Jackie is a really interesting CPA who has a practice that also includes comprehensive financial planning and she has a 360 degree view of her client's financial situation. She has a really unique perspective and she's a podcast host with over 250 episodes on this subject. She has a radio show, she's frequently a guest on radio and TV and she's also authored a book. So there's just a lot of great nuggets on the importance of planning and making sure that, when your time is up, that your heirs will have a seamless transition financially and emotionally. I hope you enjoy this episode as much as I did. Good morning, jackie. How are you today, hi?
Jackie Campbell
\ngood morning. I'm doing very well. If I can get past the summer storms here in Florida, I think we'll be doing good.
David Spray
\nYeah, I'm nearly a native of Houston, Texas, so I understand the Gulf Coast summer storms thing. What part of Florida are you calling in from?
Jackie Campbell
\nI'm right, just north above the Tampa Bay area, right there in the center part of the state on the west coast.
David Spray
\nOh, okay, and are you a native of that part of the state?
Jackie Campbell
\nI am a native of Florida, but I'm originally from the Panhandle, the Florida Panhandle, where the world's most beautiful beaches are up near Fort Walton Beach.
David Spray
\nNice, nice. And what brought you to the current part of Florida.
Jackie Campbell
\nWow, my husband. We were married and he was in law enforcement, so he worked with the state of Florida. So he was transferred here for his very first station right outside of Tampa, and we've been here ever since, 37 years now.
David Spray
\nAnd I guess you were early enough in your career. It was easy to get started there, as anywhere.
Jackie Campbell
\nOh yeah, I finished up here at University of South Florida right in Tampa and you know you start working the next thing. You know I had my own firm, one of the youngest females in the state of Florida having my own firm and you have kids and they start school and the rest is history.
David Spray
\nOh, that is awesome. So how long before you struck out on your own?
Jackie Campbell
\nWell, I started with the CPA firm before I even knew what a CPA was, and that was right out of high school. I kind of found that as a summer job when.
I was in college, yeah, and it just sort of kind of all came together. So I had quite a bit of experience in different bookkeeping and public accounting before I even had my college degree. So it was a few years, tried a few different things public and private and decided that public accounting was going to be more my line and kind of was a little bit ahead of schedule of having my own firm. You know have a lot of ideas and you know want to kind of do it your way.
\n\nDavid Spray
\nI guess, as they say, was there any specific event that prompted you to make the move?
Jackie Campbell
\nWell, having two small children, I had this great idea. You know, sometimes we think we're smarter than we might be. I had two toddlers and I thought well, I'll get to spend more time with my kids if I have my own business. And you know, that lasted for about six months and you know, three employees. We finally had to get an office location and just kept growing and just kept going from there.
David Spray
\nWell, and I also would imagine, because my sense is that we started our career probably similar times. In fact, when we started our career, the firms weren't as kind of family friendly as they are now, were they?
Jackie Campbell
\nThat's right. I mean they will train you very well, especially the larger firms, the regional firms. But they do expect you know a lot from you.
David Spray
\nSure. Okay, so you started your firm, and so why don't we just kind of talk a bit about the firm? What would you say, or what would your clients say, make your firm different than just the average CPA firm?
Jackie Campbell
\nWell, I think just experience has a lot to do with it, right, I think that is one one thing that makes us different. One thing that I hear a lot from clients is just the trust that they have for us. And you know you would think that trust is really easy to earn or to build in relationships, but you know that's not necessarily the case, and we've been in business now for a little over 30 years, so that's a long time of working with not only one generation, but often we go into the second and third generation, whether it's a small business owner, an entrepreneur, or whether it's just an individual who's already been retired and enjoying retirement. So I would say that pretty much makes us unique. We are a planning firm. That, I think, is another thing that we do a little bit differently and we don't just look at history Most CPAs are historians looking at, you know, everything that happened.
I think we have, and as part of my unique ability, is to be able to look at what's going on now, what the pattern was in the past and what that pattern is most likely going to be, as we move forward and plan forward and, you know, being strategic, being tactical, trying to help clients along the way as those major milestones and events come along, the planned ones and the unplanned. So I think that you know and that looking at the 360 degree lens is really important. We became duly licensed as financial advisors when we were allowed, so back in the late 90s was the first time a CPA actually could have more than one license because of the high fiduciary responsibility and CPA is always, as you know, been regarded as a really trusted advisor. So just looking at that full package and working with attorneys, collaborating with them, just to make sure that we get that full service and what the advisors are intending to happen, or the strategy, what that's going to be, actually does take place.
\n\nDavid Spray
\nYeah, I think that's great. I've always thought that really, since those opportunities presented themselves, that it was a great opportunity for CPA firms because you know they're already, you know the trusted advisor, you're already communicating with your clients, at least annually, just because of you know the tax return compliance, and it just seems so, so natural. But for whatever reason, it just seems like a lot of CPA firms have, you know, maybe dipped their toe in it but really weren't able to integrate those two practices very well. So, yeah, I can imagine why, from your client's perspective, it's great to have kind of this one stop shop. I mean, obviously the legal is still. You know you're partnering with somebody else for that, but at least two of the three legs of that stool you know, the CPA, the planning and financial advisory and the legal you're covering and under one roof, that sounds great.
And then like how do you guys end up typically being like the quarterback, would you say, because you know, like when you look at like estate planning, obviously you're bringing in the attorneys for that, but it seems like so many plans are created but not implemented. Do you all have, you know, some role in that, or is that pretty much left to the client and the attorney to to implement those plans?
\n\nJackie Campbell
\nWell, I would say it depends on the individual. Some people are really entrepreneurial. They're always looking and learning and paying attention to what options or opportunities may be out there for them. So they will sometimes come with ideas. Sometimes it's just a matter of having conversations. You know, we all kind of have a plan. It's just very well laid out or it isn't Sure. But yeah, we do take that quarterback role.
Quite often I had so many conversations through the years where someone would meet an attorney, they would have illegal documents, they would have a trust and then nothing would be titled in the trust. And then you have the financial advisor or the insurance advisor and they're having a certain plan or their certain tax ramifications of their transactions that they, you know, legally can't talk about and say, oh, I can't talk, I can't discuss taxation, You'll have to talk to your accountant about that, or tax preparer. And then as the CPA, we would end up, you know, kind of cleaning everything up, saying, wait, you have a trust, why isn't? Why aren't things? All your financial accounts titled that way?
\n\nSo it's just about you know, pulling that plan together and making sure that is this the true plan and direction that you're going, and pulling that road map together. You know, I heard something the other day the one thing that doesn't know it's in the water is the fish. And it's the same story. It's hard for us to see even professional advisors. You can give really great advice and see a lot of pitfalls and potential challenges and the opportunities for someone else, but when it comes to yourself, you're just too close to the scenario.
\n\nDavid Spray
\nYeah, the classic cobbler in the shoes situation. Right, and then can you all. Are you also set up to actually, you know, in addition to the planning, actually you'll do the implementation as far as you know acquiring, you know, insurance products, you know for funding vehicles, and that as well.
Jackie Campbell
\nWe do. Yeah, we're considered a full wealth management firm, so you know pretty much anything dealing with money. We're able to do it, or collaborate with someone and find a solution for it, or someone who actually specializes in that that either tax law or that strategy but we try to look at it as products at all. We don't address it that way. We look at it as what are we trying to get to and to achieve, and what is the best, most economical way to get there?
David Spray
\nNo, that that makes a lot of sense and it's great that you have all those capabilities under one umbrella, because I have seen firms that have a heavy planning focus but you know, are so focused on the independence that you know that they won't actually implement the products you know. So then you have to rely on, you know, a kind of a traditional commission, you know driven, you know insurance person, let's say, to do the implementation. And then that can be kind of tricky because you know you don't necessarily want to turn your client over to somebody who might have a, you know, a different, a more aggressive style than you do. So yeah, I think that's great that you just have the ability to really do it all and I think it speaks to that that. What do you call your approach? The 360?
Jackie Campbell
\nYeah, the 360 degree complete planning.
David Spray
\nOkay, yeah, no, I can. It seems like a great, a great description for what you do, so talk to. So what I'd like to do now is shift gears. I'm really curious about all you do in the media world.
Jackie Campbell
\nYou have a podcast, you have a radio show, you've authored a book which came first the radio show, the podcast, the book the radio show actually came first, been doing that for about nine or 10 years now I think it's a little over nine been doing radio in the Tampa Bay area. You know I grew up as someone who was really shy. You know my mom would always say, oh, just have to pull her from behind my skirt because I was always looking for a place to hide. And it's funny how the thing that you're afraid of most when you're younger is how you grow and develop and that's your spot, that you're supposed to be. And you know I think you're never really there. You're always trying to raise the bar a little bit.
But I love radio. I had someone that I worked with and they coached me along and really I think helped me find a voice for radio because I come, turns out, I had a lot of things to say. So you know, working with so many individuals and families and my own family and the hard one wisdom that we have it just makes it so natural and easy. And I think being able to actually pull multiple professions together and pull that full 360 together for someone is just to me that's so rewarding because not everybody can see multi-dimensional Aspects. So radio was first. We called our radio show beyond the money.
\n\nOkay that's because it's really beyond the money. It's about what are you trying to get the freedom to do with your life or your business? What are you trying to grow into? Multiply and freedom of relationships, freedom of purpose those are things that we hear from Dan Sullivan, the founder and strategic coach. And and when you just really focus on you, what are you trying to get the freedom to do, not just the freedom from doing? I think it's a totally different mindset.
\n\nDavid Spray
\nSure, and is your radio show like the weekly show?
Jackie Campbell
\nYeah, we have. We do air the same show on Saturday and on Sunday as well, and then we have Podcasts that came as a result a few years later, and that's the beyond the money podcast.
David Spray
\nOkay, so as far as the radio show. So what station is it on and what time is it come? On? Saturday and Sunday.
Jackie Campbell
\nYeah, it's W X, j B, it's a local station and ninety nine point nine here in the Tampa Bay area. But you can't. I mean these days you can access everything all over the year.
David Spray
\nAnd then do you have calls Callers that call in with questions. Is that kind of the format?
Jackie Campbell
\nWe do not take live calls because you know highly count compliance regulated industry. Oh sure, yeah, we don't do that, but sometimes they will call the radio station and they will leave a question for me to talk about. And I Do a live conversation on Wednesday mornings with the morning DJ just to talk about what's going on in our area and there's any changes and law changes and sort of just kind of finger on the pulse.
David Spray
\nWow, well, that's so, that's great. So that that ended up leading to the podcast, and so how do you view the podcast differently than the radio show? What are the kind of pros and cons of the podcast versus the the radio show? Or is the podcast just a rebroadcast of the radio show?
Jackie Campbell
\nIt's kind of a combination. We have a little over 250 episodes on our podcast and it's a little bit of combination. Sometimes I have what we call on tour interviews. I've had the pleasure to interview Reba McIntyre, yeah, in Nevada and we talked about mama and the rope and pin and she's he's great. She's just who you see on TV. Who you see on stage is exactly who she is in person. Martina McBride you know quite a few others get the pleasure to go to Nashville here in a few weeks and Interview a few as well. So we do take some celebrity interviews and those are just more on a personal level. And then it could be some professionals that we work with, we collaborate with here in our area and we have them on as guests as well. We have a licensed mental health counselor, because you know Emotions and is certainly all about your financial picture for individuals and business owners, and you know we have a quite a few other professionals that we'll have on from time to time.
David Spray
\nOkay, that really sounds great. And then it sounds like the last piece of the media Stool was the bunk. Is that right?
Jackie Campbell
\nYeah, this is something that I've been Thinking about for a while. You know it's. There's a concept called the 90 minute book and I said it took me nine years to actually it's 100%. But you know, sometimes things just happen when they're meant to be and this is just something. It's some of that really hard one wisdom that I was talking about.
You know, you don't really know how challenging it is to go through cleaning up Financial records from someone until you experience it up close and personal. And I've seen many families Do things right and I've seen the outcome of that and I've seen them Just have a total mess. Nobody knows where the keys are, literally and for figuratively, you know, for their financial life, and it's just such a stressful time, both you know, emotionally, physically and mentally. And then to try to figure out, put the puzzle together, I came up with a book.
\n\nI have a what we call a hero package and my wind file came first. That came about eight years ago and that's a document storage system for how to gather all of your important documents and your passwords and you know who are your professional advisors and really what are the succession plan Steps that would need to take place. So sort of giving, like an owner's manual. You know how to run my life Without me if I'm not able to or not here. So just a real gift for your loved ones and your nexa can and your family members.
\n\nDavid Spray
\nSo I'm curious about that. Talk to me a little bit more. So you talk about the hero file and then you talked about something else when the my, when file.
Jackie Campbell
\nWHEN You're having my southern accent sounds not sure which way to say it, but it's my wind file. It's when the time comes right. It's just a really go-to book. You know, we never know what's gonna happen, doesn't matter how old you are or how young you are. Sometimes life just happens, and it's just a really great way to collect all those things, and that was the very start of it. The book that I just released was be prepared, creating peace of mind for you and your loved ones, and it sort of ties it all together ideation behind it, my why, my personal why, and also just some Highlights of you know what to have in your black book or your lockbox, whatever you call it, just just to make it a little bit easier for those that you love and care about the most.
David Spray
\nSure, and I guess the one of the great things about your practice and your comprehensive, you know, 360 degree view of your clients lives Is if the only planning they do is just tell their loved ones to call Jackie, that probably get some, you know, a lot further ahead than they would be if they didn't have a Jackie, right.
Jackie Campbell
\nThat's exactly the point and so many of my clients have said that. I just told them call this person right here and she will know everything, she will know. And you know, I just got another one of those calls this week from One of my clients. You know both. Both the parents Happen to be sick and not doing well and the kids came in from out of state and of course they knew Call Jackie Campbell and she'll be able to help you navigate through some of these things and work along with the attorney. And you just never know when that time is going to come. And that's I take that as an honor to be able to do that.
Another long-term client just passed away a few weeks ago, very, quite young, and you know the family is. You know we're actually going to be meeting in a few days here and going through some things. But you know I really value the relationships that I'm able to build with my clients and I think they're often at a much deeper level Because of the trust and because of going the extra step to. You know, beyond the money, not just how much money do you have, how to invest it, where to put it, do you have life insurance? Do you have your estate documents on order? Are you in compliance with the IRS? It's just really about thinking at a much more personal level with them and kind of always looking and planning ahead, because not everyone has that skill and ability.
\n\nDavid Spray
\nWell, it's a good thing that that you're a big fan of strategic coach and Dan Sullivan's Approach to life, because it doesn't sound like you're going to be able to retire anytime soon. It sounds like there's too many families depending on on you to just be able to just Decide you're done and just just appear tomorrow. Is that a fair assumption?
Jackie Campbell
\nThat's a fair assumption. Yes, as long as you love what you're doing, you know there's really no reason to stop. It's truly about I. That's one thing I learned from Dan Sullivan is, you know, having whatever you're doing, your life is short and really enjoy what you're doing and have a purpose for what you're doing. And you know, compliance wasn't my thing. I mean I could do it.
I started at a very young age and, you know, before Computers even did the tax returns for you. So you really learn the way with the pencil and the eraser, you know, as the numbers carried page to page. But Just being able to go that, that higher level, I just really Am blessed that I am able to take my unique abilities and just help somebody else kind of To tie those things up with a bow. I'm a big fan of enjoying life and confetti moments and you know people have this idea or ideal that they want this hallmark type life. And Okay, what do we need to do to work towards that? It's probably never going to be ideal, but enjoy the confetti moments that come along the way and celebrate them, because we don't know how many of those we're gonna have.
\n\nDavid Spray
\nThere, and what's the example of a confetti moment. I really like that expression. Like graduations, marriages, child or, you know, child being born.
Jackie Campbell
\nYeah, well, those are the big ones, right, and those are the obvious ones that people Think about. They have dinner, they do flowers or balloons or whatever birthday cake. But it's also the smaller ones that come along the way. Maybe you're reaching a goal or a milestone or you're like, if you're a business owner, it's your largest quarter yet, or you've reached and achieved your dream. Check, it could be a lot of different things. Maybe you finally got the right team in place that you're able to take some true free time. It could be a lot of different things that go along.
We look for confetti all the time around here. We just had to find the ones that were easier to clean up because, no, we were having a mess. But you know, the last day of tax season, our staff is real, our team is just Loves the throw in the confetti. This year we celebrated our 30th year in business and just having that celebration you know, my family was there, team was there, their family and some of our long-term clients and just being able to share the appreciation and the gratitude that we have with them lots of confetti. It's just a lot of fun.
\n\nDavid Spray
\nNow, that's awesome, you'd mentioned your personal. Why, if it's not too personal, what is your personal why?
Jackie Campbell
\nThat is when my dad was sick. You know you spend our. I had spent, you know, two-thirds of my career helping others that weren't related and they were. You know I built a relationship with them and helping them the parents, the moms, the dads, the grandparents get ready for the next generations and I had not really paid attention to my own family. You know the ones I love and care about the most and I guess I had it's just you always like wish you had done things. Oh, I should have done this, I should have done that.
But when my dad was ill, in the last 30 days of his life in the hospital, you know just realizing some things that should have been done and how difficult that was. You know my mom was the CFO of the family and she knew where everything was Any insurance, any medical record that the doctors asked for. My mom was able to go and pull it out of a file cabinet. She was really organized. My dad would not have had a clue where the passwords were, how to turn on the computer. He worked on the military base totally different career and mindset and most families have one CFO that pays the bills and does all the filing. And if you look at where we're at now, I guess 20 years ago we didn't have all the electronic files, so you were able to wait 30 days, wait 60 days and you're gonna get a letter from whatever account or safe deposit and you're gonna get an invoice or something in the mail. That doesn't happen anymore and we have so many things in the cloud on computers, on tablets, and if you don't have certain keys or pens or passwords, you can't even obtain obtain any of those records or documentation. So that was just a real big eye-opener that, wow. My dad probably isn't the only person that would have been in a jam and I would have had to really help comb through every piece of paper because I didn't know what my mom's filing system was.
\n\nAnd you have this concept and this idea that your parents are gonna live forever and while he did pass away at a young age, the time goes by so quickly. So that was my personal experience. And I do remember when we were in the hospital and the nurse came in and said this room is in dire straits today. So whatever they need, they get. And I just thought dire straits. You're right, that is so true. You get to that dire straight point. And one more thing would just be unbearable to have to go find accounts and where's the money and is there life insurance? And many people, especially the older generations, they keep money and finances really close to the vest. So it's just a way of having let's talk, let's have that conversation and I'm just so blessed that the feedback that I've gotten from my family, my clients and those around me saying wow, I'm glad somebody's really brought this to my attention that you might need to leave a little bit of a cookie crumb trail for someone else behind you.
\n\nDavid Spray
\nOkay, so thank you for sharing that and, if I'm understanding you correctly, you're saying that before your dad's illness you'd been helping clients at a certain level. But then it really you experienced at first hand how difficult it can be to try to while you're dealing with end of life health issues but also dealing with layering onto that getting passwords and other stuff in order and you're saying that experience personally gave you kind of a newfound insight and passion to make sure that your clients were not in that situation. Does that about summarize it?
Jackie Campbell
\nThat completely summarizes it, yeah.
David Spray
\nWell, that's, and how long ago was that?
Jackie Campbell
\nThat was about 10 years ago. That happened and I knew I wanted to write a book but it took me a while to get to it. And I did get 80% of the book done. But it was the personal why that I couldn't get past making that and I thought about that for a while, off and on, and I thought, oh, I've got to get that done. It was on my list of goals every year finished my book and it's just a short read. It's not a very thick book. I'm not a big. I normally will skip chapters if it's a big book anyway, get the most important parts out of it.
But the main thing is to inspire people with this book and the final way I was able to get that executed was I realized that it wasn't about me, it wasn't about my dad, it wasn't about what I did or didn't do.
\n\nIt was truly about helping others be the hero of their family, Because we really I would say the majority of the population wants to honor your parents, what they want to happen, and this is a way for them to keep their dignity you to keep your dignity in some tough decisions that you might have to make. But it's just a way to let your parents or your loved ones be the hero of their story and have that big handoff, that baton. That's just gonna be such a gift and blessing, and I don't know that somebody who receives it might realize how difficult it might have been otherwise. But you're working with clients since then and some that have children that live out of state or completely away and they just they don't even know where, how to open the garage, what the garage code is, or they're just not basically here. They don't know these things, and I have just seen so many examples of how this would have been just such a true blessing and a gift to who's next.
\n\nDavid Spray
\nAnd it's interesting, as you talk about the hero part, that's another reminds me of something that Dan Sullivan always says who do you want to be a hero to? Was that inspired by that question by Dan, or was it unrelated?
Jackie Campbell
\nIt's definitely. I mean, I've been a strategic coach for about 10 years, so it's definitely had a significant influence in my thinking because, as he says, we're in the thinking business, so it's definitely part of it and it's just. I personally wish my dad was able to be the hero and have all those things done. My mom certainly still is the hero and she just has given me invaluable feedback on putting this together and some of the things that she's done for years. It's in several of my clients. I've been able to collaborate with them some long-term clients, our client advisory board and get some really great feedback from them and how they've kind of kept track of things and put it all together to really just kind of make it something.
That's one go-to place and we do have a digital version of it now as well the my Win File. The book goes along with it and we also have a for those that just like cheats. Cheats and checklists. We have a guarding your legacy checklist. So that's what we call the Hero Pack. It's just a system, a go-to system to really kind of pull things together for your loved ones.
\n\nDavid Spray
\nThat's awesome, by the way, if it makes you feel any better. I also teamed up with Stuart and his team from 90-Minute Books for my book, and it also took me many years to do a 90-Minute Book. The good news is, when I do my second one, it'll be not much more than 90 minutes, because now that I really understand that it's all about progress, not perfection it's, and, like you said, you're authoring the book as a resource to people, and every day that perfectionism slows down, good enough, there's people that could be benefiting from a good enough version. So, anyway, I just wanna let you know you're in good company. It also took me many years to get my 90-Minute Book done.
Jackie Campbell
\nYeah, he did say I'm not alone.
David Spray
\nYeah no, I think so. I think I know the answer to this question, but I'd like to ask you anyway. So what do you get the most satisfaction from in your role, in your firm, in the way you've structured your role, what gives you the most satisfaction?
Jackie Campbell
\nThat's a really great question.
I think I'm really energized by being able to see things come together, not just having the conversation, not just talking, to hear myself talk, but to have someone that really values my input and my recommendations and will walk alongside me to actually get those executed.
\n\nI think that is really the trust that I try to build and really value most.
\n\nAnd I'm working now with a client that they've been clients for a long time and just really high ranking in the military, so super organized, very strategic, very tactical, and they're thinking and their operations and have worked with them for a long period of time.
\n\nSo have worked with them, now their children and now the next, the third generation, with the grandchildren, and to be able to help someone set up their very first Roth IRA at 19 years old, it just melts my heart and it's like, oh, this is just such a great generational trend to build and you see all the bad things that happen, but just to see that positive thinking and growth that happens with those next generations. I just really enjoy that and worked with quite a few war veterans and from the Normandy days that still were there on the beaches of Normandy and to hear some of those heartbreaking stories and all the different things and life events that have gone on for over a hundred years and some of those really confetti moments and really difficult times and now working with the grandchildren of those families, I mean that's what I value the most.
\n\nDavid Spray
\nSure, yeah, it's what is the saying too. The biggest blessing is to be a blessing for others. Right For sure, and that comes through. Do you have an ideal client? Do they? Are they typically located geographically near you? Just because of the closeness you like to have with your clients, do they typically tend to be geographically close?
Jackie Campbell
\nI would say most are in the, I would say, southeast region, but I do have clients all over the United States. I have some that live half a year over in Europe as well. So with technology there's no border anymore. With Zoom you're able to get on and I have a whiteboard, and with our Zoom meetings and we're able to actually share that. I really enjoy using whiteboards when I'm working with clients because I can kind of organize their thoughts a little bit and make sure that I'm understanding what they're looking to do. But it doesn't really matter. We work with clients all over the state of Florida. You know many really like to have that in-person meeting and sit across the table from you, especially as they get a little bit older. Yeah, but we do both for sure.
David Spray
\nOkay, yeah, that's good to know, because I have clients all over the country and from time to time they're looking for a CPA introduction. So that's good to know that there's no geographic constraints. But so, since there's no geographic constraints, though, what else are you looking for in a client? I assume you don't need any more high maintenance clients who don't do what you tell them, who are uncooperative and don't trust you. I guess you have enough of those clients already. Is that a safe assumption?
Jackie Campbell
\nYes, that is correct. One of those is too many.
David Spray
\nOne of those is too many right.
Jackie Campbell
\nThat's right. Yeah, that's an entirely different business model. It's funny, you know, like you, when you first start your business, it's what they call threshold clients. Right, it's like anyone who comes across the threshold. Yes, I can help them, and you do, and you're so grateful for that trust and confidence that they have in you to start with them.
But I really am passionate about those that are in the retirement red zone, that are looking for those real important upcoming milestones. One of my unique processes is taking someone through a timeline and you know it's a very visual timeline when are you at, where's your spouse at, what are the next milestones coming up and what do we need to plan for in advance from a tax efficiency standpoint, from an income planning standpoint, from insurance, health and long-term care, legacy planning I mean all of those things kind of come together. And then, of course, your investments what is the most appropriate amount of risk that you're trying to take or need to take? So it's just about pulling all those things together. So I would definitely say the retirement red zone and beyond, enjoying retirement.
\n\nI'm really passionate about law enforcement and first responders. You know, growing up in a first responder family, my husband was in law enforcement. We were high school sweetheart setting. He's been in law enforcement as soon as he was able to carry a gun, so he wasn't able to buy bullets yet, but he was able to carry a gun and work in the jail. So he worked with the state of Florida. He was a state trooper and deputy sheriff and you know, having that entire career, you see things from a different perspective.
\n\nSo I'm really passionate about helping the first responder community my brother's in law enforcement, his entire career. My sister-in-law, it's my husband's dad. I've got a cousin. We're just, you know, a kind of you have one side of the family is on one side of the law and one side could be on the other side of the law. But you know, that's another real area of passion for us and an ideal client. And because they're paid so little for the sacrifice, you know, and there are decisions on their timeline, which is a totally different timeline than the normal average worker or business owner. So we also my husband has, we have a podcast that we do beyond the badge.
\n\nDavid Spray
\nOh yeah.
Jackie Campbell
\nYeah.
David Spray
\nSo that's great yeah.
Jackie Campbell
\nSo I can't believe that I got him to be so vulnerable to actually do that. But yeah, I've had him on TV and podcasts so but he's actually really good at it. So, and only somebody who's lived that life can really, you know, talk and really you know, correlate to someone who is has lived in that life and as a first responder. And then the other ideal client for us as a firm is someone who is an entrepreneur, business owner, entrepreneur. That is in that red zone. You know a lot of entrepreneurs never really want to retire, but it doesn't mean they don't sell off part of their business or have a succession plan so they can move on to something else that they're really passionate about or a different purpose at a higher level. But it just when they start making those changes, when they get to those milestone ages around 55, that's really where you know there's going to be some real key confetti moments and milestones or mile markers however you want to look at it that that are going to require some different thinking.
David Spray
\nI tell you your husband just sounds like like my kind of guy. But the thing that I'm most impressed with I'm always impressed with guys who marry their high school sweetheart, because that tells me there's a guy who says, you know what, if I, you know, screw this up and she ends up dating other guys in college, I may never get her back. You know I better go ahead and you know, you know, get this deal closed before she has a chance to realize that you know there's other guys out there. So I'm always impressed with guys who marry their high school sweetheart. I say that's very you know, that's very wise, beyond your years, when you recognize in high school your life partner is.
Jackie Campbell
\nYeah, he was way wiser than I was. You know I'll give him credit for that one.
David Spray
\nWell, good. So, speaking of younger years, what do you wish you knew when you were 25?
Jackie Campbell
\nI love that question. I think I like it better when I ask it, though.
David Spray
\nSure, I do.
Jackie Campbell
\nYou're wiser than you think you are and don't care about what everybody else thinks, and stop making up those stories about what you think that they're thinking. I think we overanalyze, we worry about others too much than to actually live our own dreams, and there are truly people that are never going to be happy for you, for your success and your achievements. But you know you can love them anyway, or you just don't tell them everything, but just don't lower your expectations for what you think you're capable of and what you want to achieve in life.
David Spray
\nYeah, I think that's great. I heard I was listening to a podcast and I remember the person said you know, they said we worry too much about what other people think. And they say, really it's a form of arrogance, because other people don't think about you. Everybody's so focused on themselves that, believe it or not, they really don't notice that you, that your shirt was wrinkled or you had some small stain on your shirt sleeve, like people are so self-absorbed they really don't care about what you're doing. So embrace that concept and realize that nobody really cares. Nobody's staying awake at night worrying about you. Know whether you're writing a book or not writing a book, or whether there was a typo in your book or so, yeah, I really, I think that's great. Trust your gut and don't worry about others.
Jackie Campbell
\nIt's an insecurity for sure. I would say that there's definitely a lot of hard one wisdom. I think the one that stands out to me, you know, as I've gotten older, is your health is truly the number one, most important part of your retirement plan, and I don't think it's ever worded that way when you're younger just truly investing in your health, your skin, you know your core part of your body, you know it's not just the muscles, it's all of it, it's truly all of it. And I think if we're taught that that is the very first step in your retirement plan before saving money, that you know we could see things and enjoy retirement a little bit longer.
David Spray
\nOh, that's really great. What's the saying? That a healthy man has a thousand dreams and the unhealthy one has a one dream. Yeah, to be healthy. Yeah, so well, that is really great. If people want to reach out to you, what's the best way for somebody to reach out? I know you're on LinkedIn. Do you accept LinkedIn? You know connections?
Jackie Campbell
\nYes, linkedin would be a great way to reach out to me. It's under Jackie or Jacqueline, j-a-c-q-e-l-y-n, and online you can reach out to me as well, mycamblincocom, or I can give a phone number if you'd like to give out.
David Spray
\nSure yeah, go ahead 7365. So last question is there anything I didn't ask you that you wish I had?
Jackie Campbell
\nI would say you pretty much covered it all. And one other thought of kind of where I'm going next and this really came out quite a bit the past few years during COVID was as a business owner or a CEO of a company. You know, typically the larger the business, you're going to have some sort of succession plan already written and in place. But for most business owners they don't have a succession plan or a when file for themselves not just personally, but for the company and one thing that I am working on is a 100 day succession plan.
David Spray
\nOh, wow, okay.
Jackie Campbell
\nThat's where you know somebody like me. I have other partners, but you know, really spelling out some of those key things that they don't know. They know a lot they're still going to have to. You know, hunt and peck for a few things that you know still are just my personal logins, my personal, where do I keep the keys, so to speak? And you know who is the you know, like you said earlier, go see Jackie Campbell. She's going to be the one who has all the information, all the important details of what to do next. You know who is that next important person, what is the order of what should happen if something happened and I became unable to fill my role and or passed away? So I really think, you know, business owners have a big responsibility to their family at a much higher level, and that's just a great way to kind of pull all those things together.
David Spray
\nThat's great and that, and correct me if I'm wrong, but that vaguely sounds familiar that I heard Dan Sullivan talk about that same concept. Does this sound like another Dan Sullivan inspired one, or am I reading too much into it?
Jackie Campbell
\nYou might be reading too much into it. I don't know. I don't remember him saying anything about that, but I know he's always about building out 90 day plans.
David Spray
\nSure.
Jackie Campbell
\nWe do a couple of things by a hundred days here at Campbell and Company, so I don't know if that's something we picked out along the way or we just didn't like to do the quarterly plan.
David Spray
\nI'd say it's because you're an overachiever. If a 90 day plan is good, then a hundred day plan must be even better, right, jackie?
Jackie Campbell
\nMust be, and it gives you a little bit extra time to measure the results and benchmark.
David Spray
\nSo well, that is awesome. Well, I really appreciate you taking time out of your day and I really love your story and I know many of our listeners will find it interesting too. And again, thank you. Thank you for your time and I hope the weather in southern Florida clears up the rest of the day for you.
Jackie Campbell
\nWell, thank you, I think the thunderstorms are gone and probably bright skies coming. That's the great thing about the weather here in Florida and I guess in Texas as well. As you know, it'll change pretty often.
David Spray
\nThat is for sure. Well, hey, well, thanks again, jackie, and have a great day.
Jackie Campbell
\nThank you, david, appreciate it.
Special Guest: Jackie Campbell.
","summary":"In today’s episode of the IC-Disc podcast, we sit down with Jackie Campbell, a savvy CPA, founding partner of a thriving firm in Tampa, and the engaging host of her own radio show and podcast, Beyond the Money. Jackie generously shares her firm's unique 360-degree approach to financial planning, propelling clients towards a secure future.\r\n\r\nWe dig deep into the importance of believing in oneself, the necessity of having succession plans, and how to stay connected with clients. Jackie highlights the importance of strategic planning, building generational wealth, and her passion for helping those in the \"retirement red zone\" and first responders.","date_published":"2023-07-27T10:00:00.000-05:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/d61cedee-227d-47c8-8d74-3407972d4afc/f43ff1d2-f19e-4bb9-a8aa-51bdee515159.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":65243637,"duration_in_seconds":5428}]},{"id":"809ba2a4-0796-4d7e-9c85-2a8e687837df","title":"Ep044: Returns on an Alternative Investment Class with Hayden Kelly","url":"https://www.ic-discshow.com/044","content_text":"\n\n\n\n\n\nIn today’s episode of the IC-Disc podcast, I have a great guest today, Hayden Kelly from Chicago. He is with Chicago Atlantic and they have a really interesting cannabis fund for accredited investors. \n\nThey've identified a market inefficiency because endowments, institutions, and non-profits are usually prohibited from investing in cannabis. Additionally, these cannabis companies are typically not bankable for traditional debt. So Chicago Atlantic has a really interesting debt model for accredited investors, with great collateral coverage and attractive loan-to-value ratios. \n\nHayden is a really interesting guy, and even if you're not investing, he has a really interesting update on the state of the cannabis business, especially east of the Mississippi. In fact, Hayden shares some background on cannabis legalization history and why states east of the Mississippi are more financially attractive. I hope you enjoy the episode.\n\n \n\nSHOW HIGHLIGHTS\n\n\nChicago Atlantic leverages market inefficiencies in the cannabis industry to provide high-yield investment opportunities for accredited investors.\nEndowments, institutions, and nonprofits are typically prohibited from investing in cannabis, leaving a lucrative market for accredited investors.\nChicago Atlantic's cannibus fund provides low-leverage loans to cannabis operators, offering attractive returns with high collateral coverage and loan-to-value ratios.\nDelayed draw term loans, low-leverage structures, amortization of loans, and floating rate loans are some benefits of investing in cannabis loans.\nWell-collateralized loans and the value of licenses as collateral add security to investments in the cannabis industry.\nThere are two types of markets in cannabis: unlimited license models and limited license models, with the latter offering greater market control and higher valuations.\nThe mispriced risk in the cannabis industry allows for higher investment returns, as operators prefer paying higher interest rates on debt rather than selling equity at depressed prices.\nPolitical uncertainties and regulatory hurdles in the cannabis industry contribute to the mispriced risk and present unique opportunities for investors.\nThe black market for cannabis still exists due to high taxes and regulations in states like California, impacting legal operators and consumers.\nChicago Atlantic's focus on high-collateral cannabis loans and low-leverage structures presents a unique opportunity for investors in the rapidly growing industry.\n\n\n\nTRANSCRIPT\n\n(AI transcript provided as supporting material and may contain errors)\n\n\nDave Spray\nHey, this is Dave. Welcome to another episode of the podcast. I had a great guest today, Hayden Kelly. He's with Chicago Atlantic and they have a really interesting Anibus fund for accredited investors. They've identified a market inefficiency because endowments institutions nonprofits are usually prohibited from investing in cannabis But additionally, these companies are not really bankable for traditional debt. So they have a really interesting debt model for accredited investors that has some really attractive returns with unbelievable collateral coverage and loan to value ratios. So Hayden is a really interesting guy And, even if you're not investing, he has a really interesting update on the state of the cannabis business, especially east of the Mississippi, as it relates to cannabis from a purely financial aspect. Hope you enjoy Well. Good morning, hayden. Welcome to the podcast. \n\nHayden Kelly\nThanks, david, appreciate you having me? \n\nDave Spray\nYeah, my pleasure. So what were you calling into? from today Are? \n\nHayden Kelly\nyou in Chicago. Despite the background, i'm actually in Miami, our offices are based out of Chicago. We have an office in Miami as well, but I made the move down to South Florida a little over eight months ago. \n\nDave Spray\nOK, now are you so eight months ago? Sorry, are you a native of Chicago then, or how'd you end up in Chicago? \n\nHayden Kelly\nYeah, born and raised in Delaware. Actually, i spent two years in Chicago. I went to the University of Delaware, made the move to Chicago just in the beginning of 2020. I enjoyed the city. It's a great city. We just have a lot of clientele through South Florida and decided to make the move here for convenience. Whether that's a great place to be. \n\nDave Spray\nOK, well, super. So let's talk about Chicago Atlantic real estate finance. So if I've got like a couple of single family homes that I want to rent out, are you getting the guys I call to get that financed? There's a little more to it than that. \n\nHayden Kelly\nYeah, no, absolutely, it's a little bit different. So we do operate as a REIT. Our public vehicle is a publicly traded mortgage. Right now, what I specialize in and where I work with is our private funds, which is very similar to the REIT the extent of the industries in which we invest in the collateral we we obtain as collateral towards loans. We make direct loans, and Chicago Atlantic as a whole is credit oriented. We're an investment platform that focuses on making loans to industries that for maybe some reason, banks won't lend to. Maybe it's one industry that we've really specialized in over the last four years is the US medical and recreational cannabis industry. So, ok, we started making loans in 2019. We have a public REIT on Nasdaq, we have a private credit fund, we have an equity fund and a variety of vehicles and our goals to get outsized returns to investors with very limited downside risk, and we're an industry where there's very limited competition. \n\nDave Spray\nOK, i'd love to just dive into that cannabis industry. You know, kind of the last I looked at it, geez, four or five years ago, it seemed like because of the of us being a listed drug. Is it listed? What's the correct technical term? It is still a scheduled substance. Scheduled substance, yeah. So it created this hodgepodge thing where they couldn't use credit cards, they couldn't have a bank account, everything was in cash. Is that evolved in the business or is that still the case? \n\nHayden Kelly\nSo a few are still the case, still scheduled. You have an industry that is, for that reason, unbankable. So the big banks, the insurance companies, the endowments, the pensions, the institutions of the world that are typically the big check writers, the big investors in any traditional industry, are shut out from investing due to that lack of federal legalization, where the federal government has said you know, at states, you decide what you want to do. There's 22 states with recreational programs, meaning anyone over the age of 21 can consume cannabis and purchase it like alcohol, and then 38 with some sort of medical program where, if it's chronic pain, sleep apnea, etc. You can acquire cannabis with a note from a doctor and a prescription to be filled at a dispensary. Now your point on the card is completely right No credit card processing in dispensaries, and now what they do have is ATM obviously withdrawals, which is easy for cash transactions, but also you have debit card processing in a good chunk of dispensaries. \n\nWhat we've seen, though, is a big misconception on operators. Everyone thinks operators can't get bank accounts. They're paying us off through amortization payments for our loans and cash and trash bags account. The reality is there's probably anywhere from two to six state chartered banks. These are local banks that will take deposits, open up bank accounts for operators That's how we get comfortable potentially making loans And we require operators that bank accounts for at least a year and a half before we would consider a loan. So to that extent there are bank accounts in the space, but there definitely are a lot of regulatory hurdles at the operators' face. \n\nDave Spray\nOkay. So I suppose I think it was Zig Ziglar that said every obstacle contains the seed of an equal or greater opportunity. So it kind of sounds like that's how you guys are looking at this. Instead of seeing all the obstacles right You can't use credit cards, can't get big institutional investing you're choosing to see the opportunity in it. it sounds like Absolutely, david. \n\nHayden Kelly\nSo I'll give you just a little bit of a background for us. It started a little over four years ago For one of our founders, tony Cappell. He worked at a traditional lending shop in Chicago called Stonegate And, being in Illinois, you had a super robust medical program. So when it flips recreational, all those patients were already consuming. You had a wholly new addressable market that was interested in cannabis. Maybe they were using it on the black market side and wanted to now try it from dispensaries etc. So when that state flipped recreational, you had what are now the billion dollar publicly traded companies like GTI, presco, barano, spinning out of the state And they were actually coming into the offices of the Stone Gates and the other credit shops of the world and saying listen, guys, the banks won't give us a loan. \n\nWe'll give you whatever you need to get comfortable. You can take our real estate as collateral. We'll pledge you all of our assets. We'll even personally guarantee the loan. You can charge us 20%. We'll give you a little piece of the company, just give us debt. \n\nBecause of that point in time there are equity valuations of skyrocketed. They didn't want to sell any more equity in their company, so what they wanted was debt. They were willing to pay an arm and a leg for it. But unfortunately, even Stonegate was a shop that said listen, we can't do it. We have leverage from a bank. We have a few institutional investors who are not comfortable with cannabis. We can't make these loans. And being the head of credit, which was where Tony sat, he said why not make these loans when you have very limited competition, an industry that is growing 20% year over year? You can charge whatever you want And it's way more secure than anything else we're doing. And that's pretty much how Chicago Land it came to be. He got together with two of his classmates at the University of Chicago. They did their executive MBAs together at Booze And it's solid to just really understand the industry travel state by state. And that's at that point is when we launched the fund. \n\nDave Spray\nOh, wow. That's really cool, and can you share approximate like size of the cannabis portfolio that you guys have or any kind of metrics? \n\nHayden Kelly\nYes, so between our public reach, our two private funds and LP call investments that would lead underwriter on and lead collateral agent on. we've deployed a little over 1.8 billion into cannabis, or the largest vendor in the space. \n\nDave Spray\nWow, and so help me understand, like, is that like a couple dozen clients, or is that tens of thousands, or is that something in the middle, you know kind of what's? could you maybe kind of walk me through just like a typical you know sort of deal structure, as much as you're able to, you know, without giving away your secret sauce. \n\nHayden Kelly\nNo, absolutely. Well, it's closer to the earlier part, which is that I've done about 60 loans. Okay, we have some very large loans, one to a company called Verano Holdings who is a billion dollar publicly traded operator. That's a $350 million line of credit. \n\nWe have 30 million in our REIT, 30 million in our private fund. Verano is probably, in my opinion and you can look at it anywhere is probably one of the top five operators in the world today. Well, we will go in. We will do a loan anywhere from 10 to 30 million in size. We like to structure the loans as delayed drawl term loans, where we lend It's very accretive, so the operator is either building something or buying something. So we can structure the note to be delayed drawl term, which says we'll maybe give you the first tranche of 10 million upfront Once you get a permit to build your new cultivation or you're awarded the license, maybe we'll unlock the second member of that loan. So not putting all the cash up front is great from a downside protection standpoint. We like to lend anywhere less than two times and two and a half times senior debt to EBITDA. \n\nDave Spray\nWhen in traditional businesses. \n\nHayden Kelly\nYou typically see people lending maybe at five, six, seven times senior debt to EBITDA. So very low leverage. The loans amortize. We prefer our operators to be amortizing monthly. So that is actually paying down the principal of the loan rather than just paying its interest. For the big balloon to a maturity, that loan principal amount is getting smaller and smaller every single month. \n\nAnd then one thing that we've done since early on, and we're very happy we did, was focus on floating rate loans. So where you've seen these increased rates and this inflation hedge and it affecting big credit shops, big publicly traded mortgage rates, it hasn't affected us, not in a negative way but in a positive way. Where our cost of capital right now is the best of expectations. We don't use leverage So we're not relying on a bank to ultimately lend to us. That rate would have gone up Where when we make a loan to a borrower, the rates based on crime. As capital becomes more expensive to borrow and crime rate goes up, our loan gets more expensive, making the return for investors higher. So we have a portfolio right now in one of our private funds that has 37 loans. The gross on levered yield on that vehicle is over 18%, which is phenomenal and it continues to rise. \n\nDave Spray\nYeah, and especially given the well collateralized nature of the loans. \n\nHayden Kelly\nThat's something we haven't even touched on yet, which is the most important part. A typical loan when there's real estate coverage, we're getting a mortgage or deed of trust. So the operators and where we're lending is primarily on the East Coast, where all agopolis exist. You have indoor warehouses, 15,000 square foot grow operations where the operator has various grow rooms and they're growing cannabis indoors. That's how they can control climate and ultimately grow in a state like New Jersey, pennsylvania, west Virginia, ohio, because you can't do it outside like you can in California and Oregon. We're getting all asset UCC one lean. So the company's assets, the receivables, cash on hands, security, interest on their inventory, equipment, lights, receivables, etc. But the real hammer, david, is we're actually getting what is called a stock pledge of the subsidiary that owns a license. \n\nOne thing that I did not get the touch on it, which is super important, is there's two types of markets in cannabis. You have unlimited license models and you have limited license models, where some of the early adopters the California's, the Oregon's, the Washington's of the world said cannabis is great, let's issue as many licenses as we can, people love it, we're generating great tax revenue. But what happened was, over time, too much competition entered the state. When that competition entered the state, it created, at first phenomenal, a lot of cannabis coming online, a lot of people consuming it. But over the years you've seen a decline in wholesale cost. You've seen an increase in competition. You have operators that it's very difficult to be profitable and they're not making any money. What that's done at the state level is the states are now losing out on tax revenue because they're charging excise tax And the way to optimize your excise tax is to keep wholesale prices high. \n\nSo the new states that have been adopting the Pennsylvanians, the Ohio's, the West Virginia's, the Florida's, the Illinois's of the world. They said we're going to issue limited amount of licenses, where maybe they issue 20, 30, 50 licenses. Doing so creates oligopolies. Doing so keeps wholesale prices high, limited competition, very easy to regulate. And with that not only do you have a market where cannabis is trading at 2,000 or even $2,800 a pound in some states, you also have now created this license that is very valuable. You can sell the license, you can transfer the license. Now what is the most important thing with our loans is when we focus on these east coast operators We're getting. That license is collateral. The Pennsylvania licenses are valued anywhere between 15 and 25 million dollars. You saw a license itself for over 90 million dollars. So it's a very attractive piece of collateral on our loans and with the licenses, the real estate, the leans, even personal guarantees. When we consider LTB's of the enterprise value of these companies, we typically say under 25% of an additional lending environment. \n\nDave Spray\nWow, that's, that's amazing. Can you kind of walk through like an example? I mean, this can just be What's the word I'm looking for an amalgamation of, like, yes, some different clients. \n\nYou're sort of a Hypothetical scenario. Just kind of walk us through, maybe what it looks like like let's just pick a state and let's maybe, you know, maybe think of a particular deal you've done You can just talk about anonymously or something close. I know a lot of our listeners are, you know, financially oriented, so could we kind of just sort of walk through what a deal might look like. \n\nHayden Kelly\nYeah, absolutely, david, and I'll share what I would consider is one of our most reputable loans. It's a publicly traded company called Brano Holdings, and Brano is a 1.1 1.2 billion dollar Publicly traded operator. There's been quarters of the company doing over a hundred million dollars in EBITDA quarter. \n\nThat is a 350 million dollar loan, meaning we're less than one time senior, that TV, that and that loan is at the cost of an all-in Just over 14 percent. Where seniors are cured on the deal, we're fully collateralized by real estate, all-acid lean stock pledge devices. No personal guarantees in that loan. It is a publicly traded company and no warrants in that deal. But that is just shows the The industry, the holes in the industry where there is very much so mispriced risk. \n\nIf Verano was a Widget manufacturer or they were in the tire business Generating that type of revenue and having that type of dominance in the market, they would be at the cheapest cost of capital possible. But just given the lack of the institutional money in space, the banks not being willing to lend to the sin industry, which is cannabis, were able to charge a company of that magnitude north of 14 percent, which just speaks to This industry and how they're truly is mispriced risk. Ultimately, every single state to David, so they're all across the board. We've exposure through various states and many different markets just with that that one company. \n\nDave Spray\nOkay, yeah, and they're happy to pay the 14 percent because their margins are substantially higher than that, obviously. \n\nHayden Kelly\nYeah, and there's a few other factors. There is a capital super creative to them. But what's more important to understand is you've had these cannabis equity markets. You have some operators that are performing very well whose equity valuations are still getting crushed. Now They're not going to inject equity and raise equity To dilute existing equity holders. They're not gonna, you know. I see, when they know their values are higher than they're being betrayed Today, which is ultimately why they're willing to pay for more expensive debt. \n\nDave Spray\nSure. So paying 14 percent for debt is still far cheaper than selling equity at a depressed price. \n\nHayden Kelly\nAbsolutely and it won't last forever, i can't tell. You will be able to generate 12% cash paying returns, a gross on every deal of over 18% forever. But I think we have a four to seven year window and the reason being is you have An issue right now with the Democratic Party as well, where originally the Democratic Party is ever in a league-class cannabis. It's great. We can generate significant tax revenue, we can implement social equity, we'll get back to the people that were harmed on the war, on drugs and incarcerated etc. And what happened as time kind of progressed is the Biden administration You know the runoff to the Senate ever thought it would happen and the cannabis equity market skyrocketed. \n\nIf you look at a chart, i like to use MSOS. It's an ETF of the ticker to some of the largest publicly traded cannabis companies and You see this boom right following election and over the last few years It's just gone directly right back down, nearing all-time lows. And it's not because the companies can't perform. It's the loss of faith that there's gonna be any reform, any real meaningful impact and to get institutional investors involved. And it's because half the Democrats like it for tax revenue, half like it for tax revenue and one implements social equity. \n\nThere's something going on in New York right now where, you know, potentially implementing 150 licenses for Dispensaries to ex-devicted felons. Now I think it's great if you want to, you know, get back to those who have been wrongfully incarcerated for something that is now legal. It makes sense. But what doesn't make sense is Having these operators now be the ones that are going to control the cannabis trade in the state, maybe individuals that don't have as much business experience or operating experience. So you see, issues like that the Republicans aren't too favorable of that. Some of the Democrats don't love it, which is why we've seen what is the safe banking act been shut down at the Senate level for a great time now. \n\nDave Spray\nOh, wow, okay, And so help us understand. like what a smaller deal looks like, like do you have any operators? or just like a single location. Was that too small? \n\nHayden Kelly\nNo, but location is everything. So we'll do individual deals. Anywhere from 10 to 30 million in size is our sweet spot. It might be an operator in a state like Pennsylvania or Ohio or Maryland where this limited license model exists. It might be a smaller operator, but the goal there and the thesis there is you're in a state like Pennsylvania where there's 25 cultivations, or in a state like Maryland where there's 50 cultivations and you're forced to be vertically integrated because if you have a cultivation you get three dispensaries. So having one of those licenses is super valuable Now, where the operator might not be printing as much cash as a Verano, a GTI or a Crestor or a big operator. \n\nThey're in an industry where they don't need to do anything in an instant. Be attractive. They don't need to have the best brand, they don't need to have the best product, they just need to be able to operate. They need to be able to grow cannabis, open up their dispensary on time, have employees in the shop And, given the soledopathy that exists, they're very much able to be very profitable and have very attractive licenses, which is I break this flat as well. \n\nDave Spray\nOkay, that makes sense. What makes me think of something here in Texas. There's a Texas ice cream company called Bluebell in about an hour northwest of Houston, in Brenham, texas, and supposedly if you go to the manufacturing facility they just have ice chest full of like single serving ice cream for the employees to just sample at will throughout the day. I'm guessing that some employees at cannabis operations think it's going to be a similar setup, but I'm guessing it's probably not like that, right? Is this the dream job for somebody who's a regular cannabis user? or they can just consume while they work? Is that, or is that just probably a myth? \n\nHayden Kelly\nYeah, no, it's definitely a myth. Now, a California, Washington, oregon grow operation or dispensary, that might be very, very all common, just given the lack of regulation, the very cheap wholesale prices, the oversupply, that is very much real Now in a state like Pennsylvania or Illinois and Ohio these states that keep looting to you can't do that in your rooms, you can't do that Your dispensary is, and then what you stand to lose is the ability to operate. So if you're consuming product in your cultivation, it's not a good idea. We don't advise on it. We haven't seen any of our operators doing it. But there's something to consider. Right, if you're working that close to the plant, you might have an affinity to the product. At Chicago Atlantic we don't have an affinity to the product, we just like the sufficient markets And it might happen. But from our perspective it's a big no-no and you stand to lose much more than you stand to gain by consuming product during the workday. \n\nDave Spray\nSure No, that makes sense. Hey, do you know one of the theories of one of the benefits of legalizing a cannabis was that, as I understand it, when you have a black market there's a huge premium that the consumers paying because of the risk of the whole supply chain being illegal. And part of the theory was that by legalizing it you could really dramatically reduce that premium to where the black market really wouldn't exist, because there would be kind of no economic aspect to it. Are you familiar with any of those dynamics, like in California, let's say? has the black market effectively been either eliminated or kind of made irrelevant? \n\nHayden Kelly\nSo it's interesting, ultimately the actually the opposite is happening in a state like California, where you have a very robust tax regime in a state like California where it's already hard to be profitable, no matter what business you're operating in. Now you're in a state that is overbuilt supply so dramatically that it is so hard to be profitable that some of these legal operators have adjusted and started doing black market activity shipping and product over state lines, maybe selling cannabis, you know, out of the shops And, david, there's actually kind of to an extent exist in New York too, because there's really no crackdown, there's no real push to let's incarcerate, let's shut down these black market operators that are selling out of trucks. \n\nYou can go into a bodega, buy an e-cigarette, a sandwich, a soda and actually buy cannabis from someone behind the counter, and they might even put it on a credit card for you. So there's a lot of black market activity. In Houston it's not heavily regulated. Now in Pennsylvania, in Maryland, in Florida et cetera, you'll absolutely see that where. Why go to the black market dealer to purchase an eighth of smokable flour when it's going to cost maybe 30 to $40 from the black market dealer? That same eighth might be $35 or $50 in a dispensary. It's not dramatically more expensive. \n\nYou get to know where it's grown. You get to see all the metrics of the cannabis how much THC, cbd, everything that's in the product. It's sealed, it's labeled, it's sold at a licensed dispensary. It's much safer. Now you even have a new adoption of people that maybe would never consider smoking cannabis if you're buying it in a bag from a black market dealer outside of a shopping center et cetera. Where, if you go into a dispensary, you see it's labeled, you see it's secure, you have the child-proofing packages, big brands, real customer service. You might have that housewife or that house husband that was once drinking a glass of wine or a beer before bed, now eating an edible or smoking a vape cartridge to relax. So it's definitely happening. Now in the more unlimited licensed states, the opposite's happening, because the operators can't be profitable, they're a little bit more desperate and they're turning towards a black market product. The states east of the Mississippi is where I typically go. They're really very much doing it right when it comes to issuing licenses and regulating licenses. \n\nDave Spray\nOkay, and like is California, like one of those states where somebody can grow their own marijuana for personal consumption too. \n\nHayden Kelly\nThere's over 6,000 licensed grows in California, which is crazy. It's very easy to grow, It's very easy, obviously, to consume and then purchase and sell Where in some of the limited states it's very difficult to get a license. I mean an application process in a limited license state costs anywhere from $100,000 to $300,000 just to submit a good application and potentially be considered to be a worthy license. \n\nDave Spray\nWow. Well, we spent a fair amount of time in Colorado And my understanding of the Colorado law is it's actually legal, i think, maybe three plants per adult or something like that, where you can actually grow it completely unlicensed, unregulated, for personal use. Do you know if California or Oregon has that kind of stipulation too? \n\nHayden Kelly\nI'm not exactly sure. I'm sure it does To the extent operator. both consumers want to grow their own cannabis, as long as they're not trying to open up a dispensary near positive. \n\nDave Spray\nIt's the same way in Oregon and California, because it would seem like that would also create another black market, because I'm guessing in California the tax rate on the cannabis is probably higher than just the standard sales tax rate. I'm guessing it's a pretty significant number. You know what that is. \n\nHayden Kelly\nAbsolutely. It's very high In California, one of the worst tax regimes. obviously in the US there's a premium associated with cannabis even in Illinois. Tax revenue generated from cannabis in Illinois just last year, for the first time ever, actually was larger than tax revenue generated from alcohol. \n\nIt's not because there was more sales in alcohol, it was because the rate is higher. That just shows the magnitude of tax revenue from the product. States ultimately aren't legalizing it because they say you know what, david, this is better for you than buying Advil from Walgreen. This is better for you than getting prescription bill. It's ultimately to generate tax revenue where there are significant health benefits to cannabis. States are really being pushed and urged to legalize cannabis due to that tax revenue generation. \n\nDave Spray\nYeah Well, it would also seem like that would also further depress the price, the black market. Even if all you're doing is eliminating the tax, that creates a significant difference. Because I can just imagine somebody who's maybe been illegally growing their own cannabis for a long time. There's just a little small operation for them, a couple of their buddies, very low key. Now all of a sudden it's legal and they can have I don't know, it's either three or six plants, i think in Colorado You can grow them outside, i believe. \n\nNow all of a sudden they're like hey, just like in the past, i produce a little more than I need, so I can just sell it to my buddies. I'm actually selling it to them cheaper than I used to because I don't have to charge the incarceration risk premium. Now all of a sudden they're able to buy it from me for half the price that cost them to go to a dispensary. You only have one strain but they come over anytime they want. They can kind of see the operation. I would also think that would be another downward pressure phenomenon on pricing as well, although it may not be material and quantity. \n\nHayden Kelly\nYeah, that's. The latter is the most important part. Not only these plants aren't going to produce enough cannabis ultimately if you have three plants to supply many people with the product. But growing is not that easy. It's not like planting a tree where you can just put it in the backyard or somewhere or water it once in a while. It takes sophistication. It takes very significant nutrients, soil, water, lighting. \n\nThe process is difficult where, if I was an advocate for cannabis and even just for some reason I couldn't buy from a dispensary, which would be the first place I would go. I'm much more likely to find a black market operator who would chip it to me from California, oregon or Washington because, a it's probably even cheaper than trying to grow it yourself and B the new sense of growing is it's not easy. It takes anywhere from six to 12 to 24 months to have a clone producing cannabis. That's smokable. It's not something that is ultimately too reputable or even it's not that easy to do. It takes someone that really understands it. There is definitely an existence. It's not going to have too much of an effect on wholesale pricing at the dispensary level. \n\nDave Spray\nOkay, well, thanks for that industry background. Now you mentioned that in your $1.8 billion you have deployed that you haven't had access to the traditional equity markets, institutions and insurance companies. In that, because of this awkward age that we're in with cannabis, how are you all raising your funds? because it doesn't sound like you're borrowing money. It sounds like it's all equity investment from nontraditional sources. Is that correct? \n\nHayden Kelly\nCorrect. When I speak with anything here, it's in regards to our private funds. But our private funds are completely unlevered. We do not take on debt. We don't go to a bank and say let us borrow $50 million, $100 million, we'll mix it in the fund with LP equity. It'll actually sit on top of the LP equity, which means in a waterfall scenario or something goes wrong, the bank gets paid back before investors are considered. That's in the traditional investment world private credit. \n\nREIT et cetera. We are completely unlevered. It's no bank debt, it is all LP equity and traditional investors of ours are qualified purpose-served investors where you have to have $5 million or more in assets. Our typical minimum check is anywhere from $250,000 to $1 million. It's ultra-hine-worth individuals, It's family offices, It's private investors that want great opportunity for clients that offers quarterly income. \n\n\nDave Spray\nHow is the investment very liquid. What's the typical tie-up if an investor does choose to team up with you? \n\n\nHayden Kelly\nguys. The investment has. A two-year lockup is the standard. Investors can get out at one year at a 10% discount if they need early liquidity. The standard two-year lockup has no discount associated with it. We make redemptions on a quarterly basis. \n\nBut, if investors are interested in the fund, you come in immediately, diversified across 37 loans. 15 of those loans have some sort of equity kicker, which means about a third of the deals are actually able to get some sort of piece of the business if the company goes public or gets acquired, which is alluded to in the past significant markups. We've had years where equity kickers are worth an additional 200-300 basis points. We've had years where they've been worth nothing, but they're solely gravy and they can help bolster returns at the investor level. \n\nDave Spray\nOkay, that explains how you lend the money at 14%. You pay your overhead, but your investors are capturing a greater than 14% return because of the equity kickers. \n\nHayden Kelly\nTo an extent that's correct. The only thing I'll say is that 14% that's to one of the best billion-dollar publicly traded companies, oh okay, the cost of capital is well over that. \n\nDave Spray\nI've got you. Okay, That makes sense. So, accredited investor. if an accredited investor is listening to this and wants to learn more, where would you direct them to? \n\nHayden Kelly\nThere's two ways You can check out our website. You can read about the team I oversee, our investor relations team. We have about 500 line-item investors. If you have any interest in learning more talking about the cannabis industry, maybe you are pursuing debt for cannabis operation. If you're looking for income alternatives in these uncertain markets, I'm happy to talk to you about potential investment opportunities. \n\nDave Spray\nOkay, should I just email you? That would be great. What's the email address? \n\nHayden Kelly\nIt is HKelly at ChicagoAtlanticcom. That is HTELY at ChicagoAtlanticcom. \n\nDave Spray\nOkay, and then the website ChicagoAtlanticcom ChicagoAtlanticCreditcom Correct. Okay, chicagoatlanticcreditcom. Well, this has been really interesting. Is there anything that I didn't ask you, that you wish I had? \n\nHayden Kelly\nNo, i think we covered a good chunk of it. We covered a little bit of everything. You know what makes this different I think it's important because there are some other lenders in the space is both were largest by a pretty significant multiple but it's where we focus we said early on, we want to stick east of the Mississippi. \n\nWe want to focus, for allogopolis exist. We've never done a direct loan in California, which speaks magnitude, because most people the first thing in the first state they think of when you hear cannabis is California. It's where started, it has this, you know, feeling to it. If you go to California, that's where cannabis is, etc. We really focus on these allogopolis and one thing that makes a significant be different, david, is we focus on direct originations. We directly originate our loans from ground up. We have eight direct originators that are in the field, looking for new deals, uncovering new opportunities, staying current with borrowers for introductions and up sizes, which gives us a competitive edge. But we're actually seeing a lot of these deals before anyone else has the opportunity to even talk to the operator. So that's us. I'm happy to chat with anyone more in depth. There's a lot we can go into and I look forward to it. \n\nDave Spray\nYes. So one last question. So is there any? you know, given the muddy waters during the federal and the states, if somebody has like Qualified retirement dollars They're looking to deploy, are there any prohibitions against that? I mean, if it's in a qualified retirement, you know, an IRA, roth IRA, or does it have to be, you know, outside that type of vehicle? \n\nHayden Kelly\nNo, great question. We included an offshore feeder on our Second fund, which is available to investors. That eliminates what is called UBTI and ECI, which are on favorable, favorable tax treatments for Qualified plans like a self-directed IRA. Now, if the individual is no longer employed with the firm that maybe they had a 401k with Like we heard is they can roll it into a self-directed IRA and invest. We take self-directed ira's, traditional ira, we take foundations etc. So you can use taxes and dollars. Very attractive from that perspective, given the high yield. \n\nDave Spray\nYeah, well, super Well, hey, this has really been. This has really been fun And I appreciate your kind of opening our eyes to an interesting Opportunity that sounds like it may not be around forever, because it was just kind of this unique, influenced of events that's created this opportunity. I heard this quote by Sam Zell. Do you know, sam, the famous Chicago? I think he invented the read. Basically, i think he did. I Heard him speak at a conference. In fact, it was that same conference in Miami where I first met one of your colleagues Earlier this year and Sam, i didn't hear this from him then. Sam spoke at that conference, but I heard him on a podcast and he said when somebody asked him what his occupation is, he said I'm a professional Opportunist, so this sounds like a great opportunity for a professional Opportunist absolutely. \n\nHayden Kelly\nI think I need to send Sam an email and let him know what we're working on. A Chicago Atlantic, that sounds great. \n\nDave Spray\nWell, hey, thanks again for your time. Really appreciate it. Have a great day. Thank you, david. \n\nHayden Kelly\nBye. \n\nDave Spray\nThere we have it another great episode. Thanks for listening in. If you want to continue the conversation, go to ic disc show dot com. That's ic D is C showcom and we have additional information on the podcast, archived episodes as well as a button to be a guest. So if you'd like to be a guest, go select that and fill out the information And we'd love to have you on the show. So that's it. We'll be back next time with another episode of the ic disc show. Special Guest: Hayden Kelly.","content_html":"In today’s episode of the IC-Disc podcast, I have a great guest today, Hayden Kelly from Chicago. He is with Chicago Atlantic and they have a really interesting cannabis fund for accredited investors.
\n\nThey've identified a market inefficiency because endowments, institutions, and non-profits are usually prohibited from investing in cannabis. Additionally, these cannabis companies are typically not bankable for traditional debt. So Chicago Atlantic has a really interesting debt model for accredited investors, with great collateral coverage and attractive loan-to-value ratios.
\n\nHayden is a really interesting guy, and even if you're not investing, he has a really interesting update on the state of the cannabis business, especially east of the Mississippi. In fact, Hayden shares some background on cannabis legalization history and why states east of the Mississippi are more financially attractive. I hope you enjoy the episode.
\n\n\n\n
SHOW HIGHLIGHTS
\n\n(AI transcript provided as supporting material and may contain errors)
\n\nHayden Kelly
\nThanks, david, appreciate you having me?
Dave Spray
\nYeah, my pleasure. So what were you calling into? from today Are?
Hayden Kelly
\nyou in Chicago. Despite the background, i'm actually in Miami, our offices are based out of Chicago. We have an office in Miami as well, but I made the move down to South Florida a little over eight months ago.
Dave Spray
\nOK, now are you so eight months ago? Sorry, are you a native of Chicago then, or how'd you end up in Chicago?
Hayden Kelly
\nYeah, born and raised in Delaware. Actually, i spent two years in Chicago. I went to the University of Delaware, made the move to Chicago just in the beginning of 2020. I enjoyed the city. It's a great city. We just have a lot of clientele through South Florida and decided to make the move here for convenience. Whether that's a great place to be.
Dave Spray
\nOK, well, super. So let's talk about Chicago Atlantic real estate finance. So if I've got like a couple of single family homes that I want to rent out, are you getting the guys I call to get that financed? There's a little more to it than that.
Hayden Kelly
\nYeah, no, absolutely, it's a little bit different. So we do operate as a REIT. Our public vehicle is a publicly traded mortgage. Right now, what I specialize in and where I work with is our private funds, which is very similar to the REIT the extent of the industries in which we invest in the collateral we we obtain as collateral towards loans. We make direct loans, and Chicago Atlantic as a whole is credit oriented. We're an investment platform that focuses on making loans to industries that for maybe some reason, banks won't lend to. Maybe it's one industry that we've really specialized in over the last four years is the US medical and recreational cannabis industry. So, ok, we started making loans in 2019. We have a public REIT on Nasdaq, we have a private credit fund, we have an equity fund and a variety of vehicles and our goals to get outsized returns to investors with very limited downside risk, and we're an industry where there's very limited competition.
Dave Spray
\nOK, i'd love to just dive into that cannabis industry. You know, kind of the last I looked at it, geez, four or five years ago, it seemed like because of the of us being a listed drug. Is it listed? What's the correct technical term? It is still a scheduled substance. Scheduled substance, yeah. So it created this hodgepodge thing where they couldn't use credit cards, they couldn't have a bank account, everything was in cash. Is that evolved in the business or is that still the case?
Hayden Kelly
\nSo a few are still the case, still scheduled. You have an industry that is, for that reason, unbankable. So the big banks, the insurance companies, the endowments, the pensions, the institutions of the world that are typically the big check writers, the big investors in any traditional industry, are shut out from investing due to that lack of federal legalization, where the federal government has said you know, at states, you decide what you want to do. There's 22 states with recreational programs, meaning anyone over the age of 21 can consume cannabis and purchase it like alcohol, and then 38 with some sort of medical program where, if it's chronic pain, sleep apnea, etc. You can acquire cannabis with a note from a doctor and a prescription to be filled at a dispensary. Now your point on the card is completely right No credit card processing in dispensaries, and now what they do have is ATM obviously withdrawals, which is easy for cash transactions, but also you have debit card processing in a good chunk of dispensaries.
What we've seen, though, is a big misconception on operators. Everyone thinks operators can't get bank accounts. They're paying us off through amortization payments for our loans and cash and trash bags account. The reality is there's probably anywhere from two to six state chartered banks. These are local banks that will take deposits, open up bank accounts for operators That's how we get comfortable potentially making loans And we require operators that bank accounts for at least a year and a half before we would consider a loan. So to that extent there are bank accounts in the space, but there definitely are a lot of regulatory hurdles at the operators' face.
\n\nDave Spray
\nOkay. So I suppose I think it was Zig Ziglar that said every obstacle contains the seed of an equal or greater opportunity. So it kind of sounds like that's how you guys are looking at this. Instead of seeing all the obstacles right You can't use credit cards, can't get big institutional investing you're choosing to see the opportunity in it. it sounds like Absolutely, david.
Hayden Kelly
\nSo I'll give you just a little bit of a background for us. It started a little over four years ago For one of our founders, tony Cappell. He worked at a traditional lending shop in Chicago called Stonegate And, being in Illinois, you had a super robust medical program. So when it flips recreational, all those patients were already consuming. You had a wholly new addressable market that was interested in cannabis. Maybe they were using it on the black market side and wanted to now try it from dispensaries etc. So when that state flipped recreational, you had what are now the billion dollar publicly traded companies like GTI, presco, barano, spinning out of the state And they were actually coming into the offices of the Stone Gates and the other credit shops of the world and saying listen, guys, the banks won't give us a loan.
We'll give you whatever you need to get comfortable. You can take our real estate as collateral. We'll pledge you all of our assets. We'll even personally guarantee the loan. You can charge us 20%. We'll give you a little piece of the company, just give us debt.
\n\nBecause of that point in time there are equity valuations of skyrocketed. They didn't want to sell any more equity in their company, so what they wanted was debt. They were willing to pay an arm and a leg for it. But unfortunately, even Stonegate was a shop that said listen, we can't do it. We have leverage from a bank. We have a few institutional investors who are not comfortable with cannabis. We can't make these loans. And being the head of credit, which was where Tony sat, he said why not make these loans when you have very limited competition, an industry that is growing 20% year over year? You can charge whatever you want And it's way more secure than anything else we're doing. And that's pretty much how Chicago Land it came to be. He got together with two of his classmates at the University of Chicago. They did their executive MBAs together at Booze And it's solid to just really understand the industry travel state by state. And that's at that point is when we launched the fund.
\n\nDave Spray
\nOh, wow. That's really cool, and can you share approximate like size of the cannabis portfolio that you guys have or any kind of metrics?
Hayden Kelly
\nYes, so between our public reach, our two private funds and LP call investments that would lead underwriter on and lead collateral agent on. we've deployed a little over 1.8 billion into cannabis, or the largest vendor in the space.
Dave Spray
\nWow, and so help me understand, like, is that like a couple dozen clients, or is that tens of thousands, or is that something in the middle, you know kind of what's? could you maybe kind of walk me through just like a typical you know sort of deal structure, as much as you're able to, you know, without giving away your secret sauce.
Hayden Kelly
\nNo, absolutely. Well, it's closer to the earlier part, which is that I've done about 60 loans. Okay, we have some very large loans, one to a company called Verano Holdings who is a billion dollar publicly traded operator. That's a $350 million line of credit.
We have 30 million in our REIT, 30 million in our private fund. Verano is probably, in my opinion and you can look at it anywhere is probably one of the top five operators in the world today. Well, we will go in. We will do a loan anywhere from 10 to 30 million in size. We like to structure the loans as delayed drawl term loans, where we lend It's very accretive, so the operator is either building something or buying something. So we can structure the note to be delayed drawl term, which says we'll maybe give you the first tranche of 10 million upfront Once you get a permit to build your new cultivation or you're awarded the license, maybe we'll unlock the second member of that loan. So not putting all the cash up front is great from a downside protection standpoint. We like to lend anywhere less than two times and two and a half times senior debt to EBITDA.
\n\nDave Spray
\nWhen in traditional businesses.
Hayden Kelly
\nYou typically see people lending maybe at five, six, seven times senior debt to EBITDA. So very low leverage. The loans amortize. We prefer our operators to be amortizing monthly. So that is actually paying down the principal of the loan rather than just paying its interest. For the big balloon to a maturity, that loan principal amount is getting smaller and smaller every single month.
And then one thing that we've done since early on, and we're very happy we did, was focus on floating rate loans. So where you've seen these increased rates and this inflation hedge and it affecting big credit shops, big publicly traded mortgage rates, it hasn't affected us, not in a negative way but in a positive way. Where our cost of capital right now is the best of expectations. We don't use leverage So we're not relying on a bank to ultimately lend to us. That rate would have gone up Where when we make a loan to a borrower, the rates based on crime. As capital becomes more expensive to borrow and crime rate goes up, our loan gets more expensive, making the return for investors higher. So we have a portfolio right now in one of our private funds that has 37 loans. The gross on levered yield on that vehicle is over 18%, which is phenomenal and it continues to rise.
\n\nDave Spray
\nYeah, and especially given the well collateralized nature of the loans.
Hayden Kelly
\nThat's something we haven't even touched on yet, which is the most important part. A typical loan when there's real estate coverage, we're getting a mortgage or deed of trust. So the operators and where we're lending is primarily on the East Coast, where all agopolis exist. You have indoor warehouses, 15,000 square foot grow operations where the operator has various grow rooms and they're growing cannabis indoors. That's how they can control climate and ultimately grow in a state like New Jersey, pennsylvania, west Virginia, ohio, because you can't do it outside like you can in California and Oregon. We're getting all asset UCC one lean. So the company's assets, the receivables, cash on hands, security, interest on their inventory, equipment, lights, receivables, etc. But the real hammer, david, is we're actually getting what is called a stock pledge of the subsidiary that owns a license.
One thing that I did not get the touch on it, which is super important, is there's two types of markets in cannabis. You have unlimited license models and you have limited license models, where some of the early adopters the California's, the Oregon's, the Washington's of the world said cannabis is great, let's issue as many licenses as we can, people love it, we're generating great tax revenue. But what happened was, over time, too much competition entered the state. When that competition entered the state, it created, at first phenomenal, a lot of cannabis coming online, a lot of people consuming it. But over the years you've seen a decline in wholesale cost. You've seen an increase in competition. You have operators that it's very difficult to be profitable and they're not making any money. What that's done at the state level is the states are now losing out on tax revenue because they're charging excise tax And the way to optimize your excise tax is to keep wholesale prices high.
\n\nSo the new states that have been adopting the Pennsylvanians, the Ohio's, the West Virginia's, the Florida's, the Illinois's of the world. They said we're going to issue limited amount of licenses, where maybe they issue 20, 30, 50 licenses. Doing so creates oligopolies. Doing so keeps wholesale prices high, limited competition, very easy to regulate. And with that not only do you have a market where cannabis is trading at 2,000 or even $2,800 a pound in some states, you also have now created this license that is very valuable. You can sell the license, you can transfer the license. Now what is the most important thing with our loans is when we focus on these east coast operators We're getting. That license is collateral. The Pennsylvania licenses are valued anywhere between 15 and 25 million dollars. You saw a license itself for over 90 million dollars. So it's a very attractive piece of collateral on our loans and with the licenses, the real estate, the leans, even personal guarantees. When we consider LTB's of the enterprise value of these companies, we typically say under 25% of an additional lending environment.
\n\nDave Spray
\nWow, that's, that's amazing. Can you kind of walk through like an example? I mean, this can just be What's the word I'm looking for an amalgamation of, like, yes, some different clients.
You're sort of a Hypothetical scenario. Just kind of walk us through, maybe what it looks like like let's just pick a state and let's maybe, you know, maybe think of a particular deal you've done You can just talk about anonymously or something close. I know a lot of our listeners are, you know, financially oriented, so could we kind of just sort of walk through what a deal might look like.
\n\nHayden Kelly
\nYeah, absolutely, david, and I'll share what I would consider is one of our most reputable loans. It's a publicly traded company called Brano Holdings, and Brano is a 1.1 1.2 billion dollar Publicly traded operator. There's been quarters of the company doing over a hundred million dollars in EBITDA quarter.
That is a 350 million dollar loan, meaning we're less than one time senior, that TV, that and that loan is at the cost of an all-in Just over 14 percent. Where seniors are cured on the deal, we're fully collateralized by real estate, all-acid lean stock pledge devices. No personal guarantees in that loan. It is a publicly traded company and no warrants in that deal. But that is just shows the The industry, the holes in the industry where there is very much so mispriced risk.
\n\nIf Verano was a Widget manufacturer or they were in the tire business Generating that type of revenue and having that type of dominance in the market, they would be at the cheapest cost of capital possible. But just given the lack of the institutional money in space, the banks not being willing to lend to the sin industry, which is cannabis, were able to charge a company of that magnitude north of 14 percent, which just speaks to This industry and how they're truly is mispriced risk. Ultimately, every single state to David, so they're all across the board. We've exposure through various states and many different markets just with that that one company.
\n\nDave Spray
\nOkay, yeah, and they're happy to pay the 14 percent because their margins are substantially higher than that, obviously.
Hayden Kelly
\nYeah, and there's a few other factors. There is a capital super creative to them. But what's more important to understand is you've had these cannabis equity markets. You have some operators that are performing very well whose equity valuations are still getting crushed. Now They're not going to inject equity and raise equity To dilute existing equity holders. They're not gonna, you know. I see, when they know their values are higher than they're being betrayed Today, which is ultimately why they're willing to pay for more expensive debt.
Dave Spray
\nSure. So paying 14 percent for debt is still far cheaper than selling equity at a depressed price.
Hayden Kelly
\nAbsolutely and it won't last forever, i can't tell. You will be able to generate 12% cash paying returns, a gross on every deal of over 18% forever. But I think we have a four to seven year window and the reason being is you have An issue right now with the Democratic Party as well, where originally the Democratic Party is ever in a league-class cannabis. It's great. We can generate significant tax revenue, we can implement social equity, we'll get back to the people that were harmed on the war, on drugs and incarcerated etc. And what happened as time kind of progressed is the Biden administration You know the runoff to the Senate ever thought it would happen and the cannabis equity market skyrocketed.
If you look at a chart, i like to use MSOS. It's an ETF of the ticker to some of the largest publicly traded cannabis companies and You see this boom right following election and over the last few years It's just gone directly right back down, nearing all-time lows. And it's not because the companies can't perform. It's the loss of faith that there's gonna be any reform, any real meaningful impact and to get institutional investors involved. And it's because half the Democrats like it for tax revenue, half like it for tax revenue and one implements social equity.
\n\nThere's something going on in New York right now where, you know, potentially implementing 150 licenses for Dispensaries to ex-devicted felons. Now I think it's great if you want to, you know, get back to those who have been wrongfully incarcerated for something that is now legal. It makes sense. But what doesn't make sense is Having these operators now be the ones that are going to control the cannabis trade in the state, maybe individuals that don't have as much business experience or operating experience. So you see, issues like that the Republicans aren't too favorable of that. Some of the Democrats don't love it, which is why we've seen what is the safe banking act been shut down at the Senate level for a great time now.
\n\nDave Spray
\nOh, wow, okay, And so help us understand. like what a smaller deal looks like, like do you have any operators? or just like a single location. Was that too small?
Hayden Kelly
\nNo, but location is everything. So we'll do individual deals. Anywhere from 10 to 30 million in size is our sweet spot. It might be an operator in a state like Pennsylvania or Ohio or Maryland where this limited license model exists. It might be a smaller operator, but the goal there and the thesis there is you're in a state like Pennsylvania where there's 25 cultivations, or in a state like Maryland where there's 50 cultivations and you're forced to be vertically integrated because if you have a cultivation you get three dispensaries. So having one of those licenses is super valuable Now, where the operator might not be printing as much cash as a Verano, a GTI or a Crestor or a big operator.
They're in an industry where they don't need to do anything in an instant. Be attractive. They don't need to have the best brand, they don't need to have the best product, they just need to be able to operate. They need to be able to grow cannabis, open up their dispensary on time, have employees in the shop And, given the soledopathy that exists, they're very much able to be very profitable and have very attractive licenses, which is I break this flat as well.
\n\nDave Spray
\nOkay, that makes sense. What makes me think of something here in Texas. There's a Texas ice cream company called Bluebell in about an hour northwest of Houston, in Brenham, texas, and supposedly if you go to the manufacturing facility they just have ice chest full of like single serving ice cream for the employees to just sample at will throughout the day. I'm guessing that some employees at cannabis operations think it's going to be a similar setup, but I'm guessing it's probably not like that, right? Is this the dream job for somebody who's a regular cannabis user? or they can just consume while they work? Is that, or is that just probably a myth?
Hayden Kelly
\nYeah, no, it's definitely a myth. Now, a California, Washington, oregon grow operation or dispensary, that might be very, very all common, just given the lack of regulation, the very cheap wholesale prices, the oversupply, that is very much real Now in a state like Pennsylvania or Illinois and Ohio these states that keep looting to you can't do that in your rooms, you can't do that Your dispensary is, and then what you stand to lose is the ability to operate. So if you're consuming product in your cultivation, it's not a good idea. We don't advise on it. We haven't seen any of our operators doing it. But there's something to consider. Right, if you're working that close to the plant, you might have an affinity to the product. At Chicago Atlantic we don't have an affinity to the product, we just like the sufficient markets And it might happen. But from our perspective it's a big no-no and you stand to lose much more than you stand to gain by consuming product during the workday.
Dave Spray
\nSure No, that makes sense. Hey, do you know one of the theories of one of the benefits of legalizing a cannabis was that, as I understand it, when you have a black market there's a huge premium that the consumers paying because of the risk of the whole supply chain being illegal. And part of the theory was that by legalizing it you could really dramatically reduce that premium to where the black market really wouldn't exist, because there would be kind of no economic aspect to it. Are you familiar with any of those dynamics, like in California, let's say? has the black market effectively been either eliminated or kind of made irrelevant?
Hayden Kelly
\nSo it's interesting, ultimately the actually the opposite is happening in a state like California, where you have a very robust tax regime in a state like California where it's already hard to be profitable, no matter what business you're operating in. Now you're in a state that is overbuilt supply so dramatically that it is so hard to be profitable that some of these legal operators have adjusted and started doing black market activity shipping and product over state lines, maybe selling cannabis, you know, out of the shops And, david, there's actually kind of to an extent exist in New York too, because there's really no crackdown, there's no real push to let's incarcerate, let's shut down these black market operators that are selling out of trucks.
You can go into a bodega, buy an e-cigarette, a sandwich, a soda and actually buy cannabis from someone behind the counter, and they might even put it on a credit card for you. So there's a lot of black market activity. In Houston it's not heavily regulated. Now in Pennsylvania, in Maryland, in Florida et cetera, you'll absolutely see that where. Why go to the black market dealer to purchase an eighth of smokable flour when it's going to cost maybe 30 to $40 from the black market dealer? That same eighth might be $35 or $50 in a dispensary. It's not dramatically more expensive.
\n\nYou get to know where it's grown. You get to see all the metrics of the cannabis how much THC, cbd, everything that's in the product. It's sealed, it's labeled, it's sold at a licensed dispensary. It's much safer. Now you even have a new adoption of people that maybe would never consider smoking cannabis if you're buying it in a bag from a black market dealer outside of a shopping center et cetera. Where, if you go into a dispensary, you see it's labeled, you see it's secure, you have the child-proofing packages, big brands, real customer service. You might have that housewife or that house husband that was once drinking a glass of wine or a beer before bed, now eating an edible or smoking a vape cartridge to relax. So it's definitely happening. Now in the more unlimited licensed states, the opposite's happening, because the operators can't be profitable, they're a little bit more desperate and they're turning towards a black market product. The states east of the Mississippi is where I typically go. They're really very much doing it right when it comes to issuing licenses and regulating licenses.
\n\nDave Spray
\nOkay, and like is California, like one of those states where somebody can grow their own marijuana for personal consumption too.
Hayden Kelly
\nThere's over 6,000 licensed grows in California, which is crazy. It's very easy to grow, It's very easy, obviously, to consume and then purchase and sell Where in some of the limited states it's very difficult to get a license. I mean an application process in a limited license state costs anywhere from $100,000 to $300,000 just to submit a good application and potentially be considered to be a worthy license.
Dave Spray
\nWow. Well, we spent a fair amount of time in Colorado And my understanding of the Colorado law is it's actually legal, i think, maybe three plants per adult or something like that, where you can actually grow it completely unlicensed, unregulated, for personal use. Do you know if California or Oregon has that kind of stipulation too?
Hayden Kelly
\nI'm not exactly sure. I'm sure it does To the extent operator. both consumers want to grow their own cannabis, as long as they're not trying to open up a dispensary near positive.
Dave Spray
\nIt's the same way in Oregon and California, because it would seem like that would also create another black market, because I'm guessing in California the tax rate on the cannabis is probably higher than just the standard sales tax rate. I'm guessing it's a pretty significant number. You know what that is.
Hayden Kelly
\nAbsolutely. It's very high In California, one of the worst tax regimes. obviously in the US there's a premium associated with cannabis even in Illinois. Tax revenue generated from cannabis in Illinois just last year, for the first time ever, actually was larger than tax revenue generated from alcohol.
It's not because there was more sales in alcohol, it was because the rate is higher. That just shows the magnitude of tax revenue from the product. States ultimately aren't legalizing it because they say you know what, david, this is better for you than buying Advil from Walgreen. This is better for you than getting prescription bill. It's ultimately to generate tax revenue where there are significant health benefits to cannabis. States are really being pushed and urged to legalize cannabis due to that tax revenue generation.
\n\nDave Spray
\nYeah Well, it would also seem like that would also further depress the price, the black market. Even if all you're doing is eliminating the tax, that creates a significant difference. Because I can just imagine somebody who's maybe been illegally growing their own cannabis for a long time. There's just a little small operation for them, a couple of their buddies, very low key. Now all of a sudden it's legal and they can have I don't know, it's either three or six plants, i think in Colorado You can grow them outside, i believe.
Now all of a sudden they're like hey, just like in the past, i produce a little more than I need, so I can just sell it to my buddies. I'm actually selling it to them cheaper than I used to because I don't have to charge the incarceration risk premium. Now all of a sudden they're able to buy it from me for half the price that cost them to go to a dispensary. You only have one strain but they come over anytime they want. They can kind of see the operation. I would also think that would be another downward pressure phenomenon on pricing as well, although it may not be material and quantity.
\n\nHayden Kelly
\nYeah, that's. The latter is the most important part. Not only these plants aren't going to produce enough cannabis ultimately if you have three plants to supply many people with the product. But growing is not that easy. It's not like planting a tree where you can just put it in the backyard or somewhere or water it once in a while. It takes sophistication. It takes very significant nutrients, soil, water, lighting.
The process is difficult where, if I was an advocate for cannabis and even just for some reason I couldn't buy from a dispensary, which would be the first place I would go. I'm much more likely to find a black market operator who would chip it to me from California, oregon or Washington because, a it's probably even cheaper than trying to grow it yourself and B the new sense of growing is it's not easy. It takes anywhere from six to 12 to 24 months to have a clone producing cannabis. That's smokable. It's not something that is ultimately too reputable or even it's not that easy to do. It takes someone that really understands it. There is definitely an existence. It's not going to have too much of an effect on wholesale pricing at the dispensary level.
\n\nDave Spray
\nOkay, well, thanks for that industry background. Now you mentioned that in your $1.8 billion you have deployed that you haven't had access to the traditional equity markets, institutions and insurance companies. In that, because of this awkward age that we're in with cannabis, how are you all raising your funds? because it doesn't sound like you're borrowing money. It sounds like it's all equity investment from nontraditional sources. Is that correct?
Hayden Kelly
\nCorrect. When I speak with anything here, it's in regards to our private funds. But our private funds are completely unlevered. We do not take on debt. We don't go to a bank and say let us borrow $50 million, $100 million, we'll mix it in the fund with LP equity. It'll actually sit on top of the LP equity, which means in a waterfall scenario or something goes wrong, the bank gets paid back before investors are considered. That's in the traditional investment world private credit.
REIT et cetera. We are completely unlevered. It's no bank debt, it is all LP equity and traditional investors of ours are qualified purpose-served investors where you have to have $5 million or more in assets. Our typical minimum check is anywhere from $250,000 to $1 million. It's ultra-hine-worth individuals, It's family offices, It's private investors that want great opportunity for clients that offers quarterly income.
\n\nHayden Kelly
\nguys. The investment has. A two-year lockup is the standard. Investors can get out at one year at a 10% discount if they need early liquidity. The standard two-year lockup has no discount associated with it. We make redemptions on a quarterly basis.
But, if investors are interested in the fund, you come in immediately, diversified across 37 loans. 15 of those loans have some sort of equity kicker, which means about a third of the deals are actually able to get some sort of piece of the business if the company goes public or gets acquired, which is alluded to in the past significant markups. We've had years where equity kickers are worth an additional 200-300 basis points. We've had years where they've been worth nothing, but they're solely gravy and they can help bolster returns at the investor level.
\n\nDave Spray
\nOkay, that explains how you lend the money at 14%. You pay your overhead, but your investors are capturing a greater than 14% return because of the equity kickers.
Hayden Kelly
\nTo an extent that's correct. The only thing I'll say is that 14% that's to one of the best billion-dollar publicly traded companies, oh okay, the cost of capital is well over that.
Dave Spray
\nI've got you. Okay, That makes sense. So, accredited investor. if an accredited investor is listening to this and wants to learn more, where would you direct them to?
Hayden Kelly
\nThere's two ways You can check out our website. You can read about the team I oversee, our investor relations team. We have about 500 line-item investors. If you have any interest in learning more talking about the cannabis industry, maybe you are pursuing debt for cannabis operation. If you're looking for income alternatives in these uncertain markets, I'm happy to talk to you about potential investment opportunities.
Dave Spray
\nOkay, should I just email you? That would be great. What's the email address?
Hayden Kelly
\nIt is HKelly at ChicagoAtlanticcom. That is HTELY at ChicagoAtlanticcom.
Dave Spray
\nOkay, and then the website ChicagoAtlanticcom ChicagoAtlanticCreditcom Correct. Okay, chicagoatlanticcreditcom. Well, this has been really interesting. Is there anything that I didn't ask you, that you wish I had?
Hayden Kelly
\nNo, i think we covered a good chunk of it. We covered a little bit of everything. You know what makes this different I think it's important because there are some other lenders in the space is both were largest by a pretty significant multiple but it's where we focus we said early on, we want to stick east of the Mississippi.
We want to focus, for allogopolis exist. We've never done a direct loan in California, which speaks magnitude, because most people the first thing in the first state they think of when you hear cannabis is California. It's where started, it has this, you know, feeling to it. If you go to California, that's where cannabis is, etc. We really focus on these allogopolis and one thing that makes a significant be different, david, is we focus on direct originations. We directly originate our loans from ground up. We have eight direct originators that are in the field, looking for new deals, uncovering new opportunities, staying current with borrowers for introductions and up sizes, which gives us a competitive edge. But we're actually seeing a lot of these deals before anyone else has the opportunity to even talk to the operator. So that's us. I'm happy to chat with anyone more in depth. There's a lot we can go into and I look forward to it.
\n\nDave Spray
\nYes. So one last question. So is there any? you know, given the muddy waters during the federal and the states, if somebody has like Qualified retirement dollars They're looking to deploy, are there any prohibitions against that? I mean, if it's in a qualified retirement, you know, an IRA, roth IRA, or does it have to be, you know, outside that type of vehicle?
Hayden Kelly
\nNo, great question. We included an offshore feeder on our Second fund, which is available to investors. That eliminates what is called UBTI and ECI, which are on favorable, favorable tax treatments for Qualified plans like a self-directed IRA. Now, if the individual is no longer employed with the firm that maybe they had a 401k with Like we heard is they can roll it into a self-directed IRA and invest. We take self-directed ira's, traditional ira, we take foundations etc. So you can use taxes and dollars. Very attractive from that perspective, given the high yield.
Dave Spray
\nYeah, well, super Well, hey, this has really been. This has really been fun And I appreciate your kind of opening our eyes to an interesting Opportunity that sounds like it may not be around forever, because it was just kind of this unique, influenced of events that's created this opportunity. I heard this quote by Sam Zell. Do you know, sam, the famous Chicago? I think he invented the read. Basically, i think he did. I Heard him speak at a conference. In fact, it was that same conference in Miami where I first met one of your colleagues Earlier this year and Sam, i didn't hear this from him then. Sam spoke at that conference, but I heard him on a podcast and he said when somebody asked him what his occupation is, he said I'm a professional Opportunist, so this sounds like a great opportunity for a professional Opportunist absolutely.
Hayden Kelly
\nI think I need to send Sam an email and let him know what we're working on. A Chicago Atlantic, that sounds great.
Dave Spray
\nWell, hey, thanks again for your time. Really appreciate it. Have a great day. Thank you, david.
Hayden Kelly
\nBye.
Dave Spray
\nThere we have it another great episode. Thanks for listening in. If you want to continue the conversation, go to ic disc show dot com. That's ic D is C showcom and we have additional information on the podcast, archived episodes as well as a button to be a guest. So if you'd like to be a guest, go select that and fill out the information And we'd love to have you on the show. So that's it. We'll be back next time with another episode of the ic disc show.
Special Guest: Hayden Kelly.
","summary":"In today’s episode of the IC-Disc podcast, I have a great guest today, Hayden Kelly from Chicago. He is with Chicago Atlantic and they have a really interesting cannabis fund for accredited investors. \r\n\r\nThey've identified a market inefficiency because endowments, institutions, and non-profits are usually prohibited from investing in cannabis. Additionally, these cannabis companies are typically not bankable for traditional debt. So Chicago Atlantic has a really interesting debt model for accredited investors, with great collateral coverage and attractive loan-to-value ratios. \r\n\r\nHayden is a really interesting guy, and even if you're not investing, he has a really interesting update on the state of the cannabis business, especially east of the Mississippi. In fact, Hayden shares some background on cannabis legalization history and why states east of the Mississippi are more financially attractive. I hope you enjoy the episode.","date_published":"2023-06-28T08:00:00.000-05:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/d61cedee-227d-47c8-8d74-3407972d4afc/809ba2a4-0796-4d7e-9c85-2a8e687837df.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":27251542,"duration_in_seconds":2217}]},{"id":"9c644d03-c059-47f6-b7b5-8385785983e5","title":"EP043: Estate Planning Strategies for a Lasting Legacy with Marvin Blum","url":"https://www.ic-discshow.com/043","content_text":"\n\n\n\n\nIn today’s episode of the IC-DISC podcast, I had the pleasure of speaking with Marvin Blum, one of the top estate-planning attorneys in the country. Marvin shares his unique approach to estate-planning that focuses on the head and the heart of the matter.\n\nListen in as Marvin and I discuss the current state of estate planning and the unique opportunity presented by today's (historically) large estate-tax exemption. \n\nWe explore the concept of 'Use it or Lose it' and how various trusts can be used to maintain access, control, and flexibility while avoiding potential pitfalls. We also touch on the impact of wealth, inflation, and the political climate on estate planning tools and the importance of preparing heirs to receive their inheritance.\n\nFinally, we also delve into the challenges that family businesses face when estate planning is neglected, and the power of philanthropy to keep a family connected. Marvin's insights and expertise make this episode a must-listen for anyone interested in estate planning, wealth management, and leaving a lasting legacy.\n\n\n\nLINKSShow Notes\nBe a Guest\nAbout IC-DISC Alliance\nAbout The Blum Firm\n\nGUEST\n\n\n\nMarvin BlumAbout Marvin\n\n\nSpecial Guest: Marvin Blum.","content_html":"Listen in as Marvin and I discuss the current state of estate planning and the unique opportunity presented by today's (historically) large estate-tax exemption.
\n\nWe explore the concept of 'Use it or Lose it' and how various trusts can be used to maintain access, control, and flexibility while avoiding potential pitfalls. We also touch on the impact of wealth, inflation, and the political climate on estate planning tools and the importance of preparing heirs to receive their inheritance.
\n\nFinally, we also delve into the challenges that family businesses face when estate planning is neglected, and the power of philanthropy to keep a family connected. Marvin's insights and expertise make this episode a must-listen for anyone interested in estate planning, wealth management, and leaving a lasting legacy.
\n\n![](\"https://assets.fireside.fm/file/fireside-images/podcasts/images/d/d61cedee-227d-47c8-8d74-3407972d4afc/guests/5/58406e6d-9fab-4de3-8d4f-12e77992e630/avatar_small.jpg?v=1\"){kind=avatar} | \nMarvin Blum | \n
Special Guest: Marvin Blum.
","summary":"In today’s episode of the IC-DISC podcast, I had the pleasure of speaking with Marvin Blum, one of the top estate-planning attorneys in the country. Marvin shares his unique approach to estate-planning that focuses on the head and the heart of the matter.\r\n\r\nListen in as Marvin and I discuss the current state of estate planning and the unique opportunity presented by today's (historically) large estate-tax exemption. \r\n\r\nWe explore the concept of 'Use it or Lose it' and how various trusts can be used to maintain access, control, and flexibility while avoiding potential pitfalls. We also touch on the impact of wealth, inflation, and the political climate on estate planning tools and the importance of preparing heirs to receive their inheritance.\r\n\r\nFinally, we also delve into the challenges that family businesses face when estate planning is neglected, and the power of philanthropy to keep a family connected. Marvin's insights and expertise make this episode a must-listen for anyone interested in estate planning, wealth management, and leaving a lasting legacy.","date_published":"2023-05-24T12:30:00.000-05:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/d61cedee-227d-47c8-8d74-3407972d4afc/9c644d03-c059-47f6-b7b5-8385785983e5.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":43093898,"duration_in_seconds":3582}]},{"id":"0d23f6c6-695f-4e66-a86d-161793d9cfb0","title":"Ep042: Subscription CPA Success with Greg O'Brien","url":"https://www.ic-discshow.com/042","content_text":"\n\n\n\n\nIn today's episode of the IC-DISC podcast, I am talking to Greg O'Brien from Boston. Greg has one of the most interesting CPA practices I've ever seen. Not only is it a virtual firm with employees and clients located all over the country, but they serve clients on a subscription basis only.\n\nWe talked about how he ended up with this model and how it has evolved over time, based on both client and employee feedback. \n\nGreg is a dynamic, forward-looking professional who is on the cutting edge of a new trend in the CPA profession.\n\n\n\nLINKSShow Notes\nBe a Guest\nAbout IC-DISC Alliance\nAbout Anomaly\n\nGUEST\n\n\n\nGreg O'Brien, CPAAbout Greg\n\n\nSpecial Guest: Greg O’Brien, CPA, CTS.","content_html":"We talked about how he ended up with this model and how it has evolved over time, based on both client and employee feedback.
\n\nGreg is a dynamic, forward-looking professional who is on the cutting edge of a new trend in the CPA profession.
\n\n![](\"https://assets.fireside.fm/file/fireside-images/podcasts/images/d/d61cedee-227d-47c8-8d74-3407972d4afc/guests/c/c24e08ad-b580-4566-bcf6-38f67ec11b6c/avatar_small.jpg?v=0\"){kind=avatar} | \nGreg O'Brien, CPA | \n
Special Guest: Greg O’Brien, CPA, CTS.
","summary":"\r\nIn today's episode of the IC-DISC podcast, I am talking to Greg O'Brien from Boston. Greg has one of the most interesting CPA practices I've ever seen. Not only is it a virtual firm with employees and clients located all over the country, but they serve clients on a subscription basis only.\r\n\r\nWe talked about how he ended up with this model and how it has evolved over time, based on both client and employee feedback. \r\n\r\nGreg is a dynamic, forward-looking professional who is on the cutting edge of a new trend in the CPA profession.","date_published":"2023-05-01T12:00:00.000-05:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/d61cedee-227d-47c8-8d74-3407972d4afc/0d23f6c6-695f-4e66-a86d-161793d9cfb0.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":53738495,"duration_in_seconds":4418}]},{"id":"892d6f87-1692-40c6-963e-340485a49fec","title":"Ep041: Being a Deal Attorney with John Walker","url":"https://www.ic-discshow.com/041","content_text":"\n\n\n\n\nIn this episode of the IC-DISC podcast we’re talking to John H. Walker, a mergers & acquisitions attorney in Houston. \n\nIn the past, John has done hundreds of transactions, on both the buy-side and the sell-side for a number of different public and private companies. But he really loves representing sellers who are selling to much larger, more sophisticated buyers, in which he is able to level the playing field. \n\nYou will enjoy this wide ranging conversation. John has some great stories, client success stories, and examples of things that can go wrong.\n\nIt was a really interesting conversation and I learned a lot about some things to be on the lookout for when you're considering selling your company. I hope you enjoy the episode.\n\n\n\nLINKSShow Notes\nBe a Guest\nAbout IC-DISC Alliance\nAbout Walker Law\n\nGUEST\n\n\n\nJohn WalkerAbout John\n\n\nSpecial Guest: John H. Walker.","content_html":"In the past, John has done hundreds of transactions, on both the buy-side and the sell-side for a number of different public and private companies. But he really loves representing sellers who are selling to much larger, more sophisticated buyers, in which he is able to level the playing field.
\n\nYou will enjoy this wide ranging conversation. John has some great stories, client success stories, and examples of things that can go wrong.
\n\nIt was a really interesting conversation and I learned a lot about some things to be on the lookout for when you're considering selling your company. I hope you enjoy the episode.
\n\n![](\"https://assets.fireside.fm/file/fireside-images/podcasts/images/d/d61cedee-227d-47c8-8d74-3407972d4afc/guests/5/5b7f08d7-cc0e-4bd8-98ca-4ed2eb39f293/avatar_small.jpg?v=1\"){kind=avatar} | \nJohn Walker | \n
Special Guest: John H. Walker.
","summary":"In this episode of the IC-DISC podcast we’re talking to John H. Walker, a mergers & acquisitions attorney in Houston. \r\n\r\nin the past, John has done hundreds of transactions, on both the buy-side and the sell-side for a number of different public and private companies. But he really loves representing sellers who are selling to much larger, more sophisticated buyers, in which he is able to level the playing field. \r\n\r\nYou will enjoy this wide ranging conversation. John has some great stories, client success stories, and examples of things that can go wrong.\r\n\r\nIt was a really interesting conversation and I learned a lot about some things to be on the lookout for when you're considering selling your company. I hope you enjoy the episode.","date_published":"2023-03-14T07:00:00.000-05:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/d61cedee-227d-47c8-8d74-3407972d4afc/892d6f87-1692-40c6-963e-340485a49fec.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":37683285,"duration_in_seconds":3131}]},{"id":"b1cbe5b4-6b94-4fa6-8601-17213a5f3836","title":"Ep040: Serving the Scrap Industry with Bob Emery","url":"https://www.ic-discshow.com/040","content_text":"\n\n\n\n\n\nToday on the IC-DISC show we are talking to Bob Emery, founder of Metals Recycling Magazine.\n\nWe have known each other for more than a decade. He's very active in the scrap metal business and has a great story about why he started Metals Recycling Magazine after a long tenure in the scrap trade industry.\n\nWe talked about why he started it as his first entrepreneurial venture, concerns, and lessons learned, and what advice he'd give to his 25-year-old self. \n\nIf you're in the scrap metal industry like many of our clients are, I recommend listening to it. And even if you're not, there are some good nuggets in there. I hope you enjoy the episode.\n\n\n\nLINKSShow Notes\nBe a Guest\nAbout IC-DISC Alliance\nAbout Metals Recycling Magazine\n\nGUEST\n\n\n\nBob EmeryAbout Bob\n\n\nSpecial Guest: Bob Emery.","content_html":"Today on the IC-DISC show we are talking to Bob Emery, founder of Metals Recycling Magazine.
\n\nWe have known each other for more than a decade. He's very active in the scrap metal business and has a great story about why he started Metals Recycling Magazine after a long tenure in the scrap trade industry.
\n\nWe talked about why he started it as his first entrepreneurial venture, concerns, and lessons learned, and what advice he'd give to his 25-year-old self.
\n\nIf you're in the scrap metal industry like many of our clients are, I recommend listening to it. And even if you're not, there are some good nuggets in there. I hope you enjoy the episode.
\n\nAbout Metals Recycling Magazine
\n![](\"https://assets.fireside.fm/file/fireside-images/podcasts/images/d/d61cedee-227d-47c8-8d74-3407972d4afc/guests/9/9bf57390-7a89-4a24-aa63-4db41c94c473/avatar_small.jpg?v=1\"){kind=avatar} | \nBob Emery | \n
Special Guest: Bob Emery.
","summary":"Today on the IC-DiSC show we are talking to Bob Emery, founder of Metals Recycling Magazine.\r\n\r\nWe have known each other for more than a decade. He's very active in the scrap metal business and has a great story about why he started Metals Recycling Magazine after a long tenure in the scrap trade industry.\r\n\r\nWe talked about why he started it as his first entrepreneurial venture, concerns, and lessons learned, and what advice he'd give to his 25-year-old self. \r\n\r\nIf you're in the scrap metal industry like many of our clients are, I recommend listening to it. And even if you're not, there are some good nuggets in there. I hope you enjoy the episode.","date_published":"2023-02-10T06:00:00.000-06:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/d61cedee-227d-47c8-8d74-3407972d4afc/b1cbe5b4-6b94-4fa6-8601-17213a5f3836.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":26878858,"duration_in_seconds":2163}]},{"id":"d3b61933-4252-4795-8b90-6882c3169eae","title":"Ep039: Deliberate Growth with Mike Till","url":"https://www.ic-discshow.com/039","content_text":"\n\n\n\n\n\nOn the podcast today we are joined by Michael Till, a senior partner at the CPA firm Mohle Adams. Mohle Adams has a unique background in that it is 75 years old but has only six partners and about 45 total people on the team. That is quite unusual compared to most CPA firms.\n\nHowever, this slow growth rate has been very deliberate and has helped them to be highly focused on accepting only clients who are the right fit for the firm to do an exceptional job for the client.\n\nWe talk about Mike's background, the history of the firm, some clients success story examples, and different attitudes and mindsets that are unique in the CPA profession. He also talks about the types of companies he really likes to work with.\n\n\n\nLINKSShow Notes\nBe a Guest\nAbout IC-DISC Alliance\nAbout Mohle Adams\n\nGUEST\n\n\n\nMichael TillAbout Michael\n\n\nSpecial Guest: Michael Till.","content_html":"On the podcast today we are joined by Michael Till, a senior partner at the CPA firm Mohle Adams. Mohle Adams has a unique background in that it is 75 years old but has only six partners and about 45 total people on the team. That is quite unusual compared to most CPA firms.
\n\nHowever, this slow growth rate has been very deliberate and has helped them to be highly focused on accepting only clients who are the right fit for the firm to do an exceptional job for the client.
\n\nWe talk about Mike's background, the history of the firm, some clients success story examples, and different attitudes and mindsets that are unique in the CPA profession. He also talks about the types of companies he really likes to work with.
\n\n![](\"https://assets.fireside.fm/file/fireside-images/podcasts/images/d/d61cedee-227d-47c8-8d74-3407972d4afc/guests/b/b2b6e533-3613-4fb8-b179-e298f8b87241/avatar_small.jpg?v=5\"){kind=avatar} | \nMichael Till | \n
Special Guest: Michael Till.
","summary":"On the podcast today we are joined by Michael Till, a senior partner at the CPA firm Mohle Adams. Mohle Adams has a unique background in that it is 75 years old but has only six partners and about 45 total people on the team. That is quite unusual compared to most CPA firms.\r\n\r\nHowever, this slow growth rate has been very deliberate and has helped them to be highly focused on accepting only clients who are the right fit for the firm to do an exceptional job for the client.\r\n\r\nWe talk about Mike's background, the history of the firm, some clients success story examples, and different attitudes and mindsets that are unique in the CPA profession. He also talks about the types of companies he really likes to work with.","date_published":"2022-12-15T09:45:00.000-06:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/d61cedee-227d-47c8-8d74-3407972d4afc/d3b61933-4252-4795-8b90-6882c3169eae.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":45501770,"duration_in_seconds":3783}]},{"id":"97609529-c423-411d-8732-7cc247511dc9","title":"Ep038: Supporting CPA Firms With Their IC-DISC Clients","url":"https://www.ic-discshow.com/038","content_text":"\n\n\n\n\nToday on the IC-DISC Show, we're talking with Brian Schwam, National Managing Director of International Tax at WTP Advisors.\n\nWTP Advisors and Export Advisors are the two founding members of the IC-DISC Alliance, and in this episode, we talk about the work we do with CPA firms to support their clients who have, or would benefit from having, an IC-DISC.\n\nRemoving any concern about 'losing' clients to a competitor. This collaborative approach is a great way for CPA firms to expand their client offerings due to the specialist nature of the Alliance work. The flexible engagement model also ensures firms remain in control of the client relationship.\n\nThis was a really interesting conversation and highlights the partnership opportunities that allow everyone involved to focus on what they do best.\n\n\n\nLINKSShow Notes\nBe a Guest\nAbout IC-DISC Alliance\nAbout Engineered Tax Services\n\nGUEST\n\n\n\n Brian SchwamAbout Brian\n\n\nSpecial Guest: Brian Schwam.","content_html":"WTP Advisors and Export Advisors are the two founding members of the IC-DISC Alliance, and in this episode, we talk about the work we do with CPA firms to support their clients who have, or would benefit from having, an IC-DISC.
\n\nRemoving any concern about 'losing' clients to a competitor. This collaborative approach is a great way for CPA firms to expand their client offerings due to the specialist nature of the Alliance work. The flexible engagement model also ensures firms remain in control of the client relationship.
\n\nThis was a really interesting conversation and highlights the partnership opportunities that allow everyone involved to focus on what they do best.
\n\n![](\"https://assets.fireside.fm/file/fireside-images/podcasts/images/d/d61cedee-227d-47c8-8d74-3407972d4afc/guests/8/81d30f05-b130-4523-a606-3c3e49b2d1ae/avatar_thumb.jpg?v=1\"){kind=avatar} | \n Brian Schwam | \n
Special Guest: Brian Schwam.
","summary":"Today on the IC-DISC Show, we're talking with Brian Schwam, National Managing Director of International Tax at WTP Advisors.\r\n\r\nWTP Advisors and Export Advisors are the two founding members of the IC-DISC Alliance, and in this episode, we talk about the work we do with CPA firms to support their clients who have, or would benefit from having, an IC-DISC.\r\n\r\nRemoving any concern about 'losing' clients to a competitor. This collaborative approach is a great way for CPA firms to expand their client offerings due to the specialist nature of the Alliance work. The flexible engagement model also ensures firms remain in control of the client relationship.\r\n\r\nThis was a really interesting conversation and highlights the partnership opportunities that allow everyone involved to focus on what they do best.","date_published":"2022-11-20T08:00:00.000-06:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/d61cedee-227d-47c8-8d74-3407972d4afc/97609529-c423-411d-8732-7cc247511dc9.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":27267004,"duration_in_seconds":2240}]},{"id":"7e1da820-df24-4e87-814f-ad99487ed418","title":"Ep037: Cost Segregation in Real Estate with Heidi Henderson","url":"https://www.ic-discshow.com/037","content_text":"My guest today is Heidi Henderson. She serves as the Executive Vice President for Engineered Tax Services and oversees the marketing and advertising efforts along with business development. Although ETS is based in Southern Florida, Heidi is actually located in Utah. \n\nDoing cost segregation work, mostly on real estate projects, we talk about some of the differentiators for Engineered Tax Services, what clients say about them, and what makes Heidi really proud about the firm.\n\nThis was a great episode talking about her background - how she got into the real estate business and then how that translated to joining Engineered Tax Services about 12 years ago. \n\nWe wrapped things up with Heidi sharing some lessons that she's learned through her career and advice that she would give to her 25-year-old self.\n\n\n\nLINKSShow Notes\nBe a Guest\nAbout IC-DISC Alliance\nAbout Engineered Tax Services\n\nGUEST\n\n\n\n Heidi HendersonAbout Heidi\n\n\nSpecial Guest: Heidi Henderson.","content_html":"My guest today is Heidi Henderson. She serves as the Executive Vice President for Engineered Tax Services and oversees the marketing and advertising efforts along with business development. Although ETS is based in Southern Florida, Heidi is actually located in Utah.
\n\nDoing cost segregation work, mostly on real estate projects, we talk about some of the differentiators for Engineered Tax Services, what clients say about them, and what makes Heidi really proud about the firm.
\n\nThis was a great episode talking about her background - how she got into the real estate business and then how that translated to joining Engineered Tax Services about 12 years ago.
\n\nWe wrapped things up with Heidi sharing some lessons that she's learned through her career and advice that she would give to her 25-year-old self.
\n\n![](\"https://assets.fireside.fm/file/fireside-images/podcasts/images/d/d61cedee-227d-47c8-8d74-3407972d4afc/guests/c/c909ddd6-0060-4479-907f-5d8e72cd51fd/avatar_small.jpg?v=1\"){kind=avatar} | \n Heidi Henderson | \n
Special Guest: Heidi Henderson.
","summary":"My guest today is Heidi Henderson. She serves as the Executive Vice President for Engineered Tax Services and oversees the marketing and advertising efforts along with business development. Although ETS is based in Southern Florida, Heidi is actually located in Utah. \r\n\r\nDoing cost segregation work, mostly on real estate projects, we talk about some of the differentiators for Engineered Tax Services, what clients say about them, and what makes Heidi really proud about the firm.\r\n\r\nThis was a great episode talking about her background - how she got into the real estate business and then how that translated to joining Engineered Tax Services about 12 years ago. \r\n\r\nWe wrapped things up with Heidi sharing some lessons that she's learned through her career and advice that she would give to her 25-year-old self.","date_published":"2022-10-20T07:15:00.000-05:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/d61cedee-227d-47c8-8d74-3407972d4afc/7e1da820-df24-4e87-814f-ad99487ed418.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":43461207,"duration_in_seconds":2716}]},{"id":"85dbe6e4-b898-4cb6-a5e1-378427350fda","title":"Ep036: Protecting Your Intellectual Property with Al Deaver","url":"https://www.ic-discshow.com/036","content_text":"In today's episode, we meet Al Deaver, an intellectual property lawyer and Principal at the Houston-based law firm of McAughan Deaver. \n\nAl's undergraduate degree is actually in mechanical engineering and he then paired that with a law degree, making him incredibly proficient with the more technical aspects of intellectual property.\n\nIn this episode we talked about some things for exporters to be aware of when dealing with trademarks, copyrights and patents. We also discussed getting patents granted in different markets as well as securing your IP right here in the USA. Our discussion is incredibly useful for anyone considering widening the reach of their products now or in the future. I hope you enjoy the episode.\n\n\n\nLINKSShow Notes\nBe a Guest\nAbout IC-DISC Alliance\nAbout McAughan Deaver PLLC\n\nGUEST\n\n\n\n Al DeaverAbout Al\n\n\nSpecial Guest: Albert Deaver.","content_html":"In today's episode, we meet Al Deaver, an intellectual property lawyer and Principal at the Houston-based law firm of McAughan Deaver.
\n\nAl's undergraduate degree is actually in mechanical engineering and he then paired that with a law degree, making him incredibly proficient with the more technical aspects of intellectual property.
\n\nIn this episode we talked about some things for exporters to be aware of when dealing with trademarks, copyrights and patents. We also discussed getting patents granted in different markets as well as securing your IP right here in the USA. Our discussion is incredibly useful for anyone considering widening the reach of their products now or in the future. I hope you enjoy the episode.
\n\n![](\"https://assets.fireside.fm/file/fireside-images/podcasts/images/d/d61cedee-227d-47c8-8d74-3407972d4afc/guests/4/47b6c6a7-90fd-4256-ae6f-5b59a39b1bfb/avatar_thumb.jpg\"){kind=avatar} | \n Al Deaver | \n
Special Guest: Albert Deaver.
","summary":"In today's episode, we meet Al Deaver, an intellectual property lawyer and Principal at the Houston-based law firm of McAughan Deaver.\r\n\r\nAl's undergraduate degree is actually in mechanical engineering and he then paired that with a law degree, making him incredibly proficient with the more technical aspects of intellectual property.\r\n\r\nIn this episode we talked about some things for exporters to be aware of when dealing with trademarks, copyrights and patents. We also discussed getting patents granted in different markets as well as securing your IP right here in the USA. Our discussion is incredibly useful for anyone considering widening the reach of their products now or in the future. I hope you enjoy the episode.","date_published":"2022-09-14T07:00:00.000-05:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/d61cedee-227d-47c8-8d74-3407972d4afc/85dbe6e4-b898-4cb6-a5e1-378427350fda.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":36389363,"duration_in_seconds":3023}]},{"id":"e575fe42-d79e-4b62-93e3-337a520c4eea","title":"Ep035: Focusing on Planning and Implementation with Laura Stees","url":"https://www.ic-discshow.com/035","content_text":"Today's guest is Laura Stees, a CPA, business strategist, and partner at Stees, Walker & Company LLP in San Diego, California.\n Laura has a really unique tax practice where she really focuses more on planning and implementation rather than compliance. Her firm does the compliance, but in her experience, it's the planning and maybe even more importantly, the implementation of the planning in which there's a big gap in the marketplace. \n And we had a really interesting conversation around the things her firm does that differentiate it from other firms and their hyper focus on planning and implementation. \n\nThere are a lot of great takeaways here, and anyone with an interest in business will gain a lot from taking a listen.\n\n\n\n\nLINKSShow Notes\nBe a Guest\nAbout IC-DISC Alliance\nAbout Stees, Walker & Company LLP Firm\n\nGUEST\n\n\n\n Laura SteesAbout Laura\n\n\nSpecial Guest: Laura Stees.","content_html":"Today's guest is Laura Stees, a CPA, business strategist, and partner at Stees, Walker & Company LLP in San Diego, California.
\n Laura has a really unique tax practice where she really focuses more on planning and implementation rather than compliance. Her firm does the compliance, but in her experience, it's the planning and maybe even more importantly, the implementation of the planning in which there's a big gap in the marketplace.
\n And we had a really interesting conversation around the things her firm does that differentiate it from other firms and their hyper focus on planning and implementation.
There are a lot of great takeaways here, and anyone with an interest in business will gain a lot from taking a listen.
\n\n
\n
About Stees, Walker & Company LLP Firm
\n![](\"https://assets.fireside.fm/file/fireside-images/podcasts/images/d/d61cedee-227d-47c8-8d74-3407972d4afc/guests/e/e33ceabd-f0b5-4294-b20c-9667582f678f/avatar_thumb.jpg\"){kind=avatar} | \n Laura Stees | \n
Special Guest: Laura Stees.
","summary":" Today's guest is Laura Stees, a CPA, business strategist, and partner at Stees, Walker & Company LLP in San Diego, California.\r\n Laura has a really unique tax practice where she really focuses more on planning and implementation rather than compliance. Her firm does the compliance, but in her experience, it's the planning and maybe even more importantly, the implementation of the planning in which there's a big gap in the marketplace. \r\n And we had a really interesting conversation around the things her firm does that differentiate it from other firms and their hyper focus on planning and implementation. \r\n\r\nThere are a lot of great takeaways here, and anyone with an interest in business will gain a lot from taking a listen.","date_published":"2022-08-17T06:00:00.000-05:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/d61cedee-227d-47c8-8d74-3407972d4afc/e575fe42-d79e-4b62-93e3-337a520c4eea.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":34664242,"duration_in_seconds":2811}]},{"id":"bedebc3b-8f39-4996-8aaa-cd76a02d673f","title":"Ep034: Understanding Tax Law with Lucy Petry","url":"https://www.ic-discshow.com/034","content_text":"In today's episode of the IC-DISC Show, we have the pleasure of talking to Lucy Petry, an accomplished tax professional and attorney who recently received her LLM in taxation. She has also been a professor for accounting classes at the University of St. Thomas and law classes at the South Texas College of Law. \n\nIn this show, we talk about a significant upcoming tax law change that will have substantial reporting requirements for every business owner with a legal entity, as well as the company's shareholders.\n\nLucy also delved deeper into some other parts of the tax code that are helpful for individuals to be aware of, but the average person may not know.\n\nIt's up right now at www.IC-DISCshow.com/034.\n\n\n\nLINKSShow Notes\nBe a Guest\nAbout IC-DISC Alliance\nAbout Petry Law Firm\n\nGUEST\n\n\n\n Lucy PetryAbout Lucy\n\n\nSpecial Guest: Lucy Petry.","content_html":"In today's episode of the IC-DISC Show, we have the pleasure of talking to Lucy Petry, an accomplished tax professional and attorney who recently received her LLM in taxation. She has also been a professor for accounting classes at the University of St. Thomas and law classes at the South Texas College of Law.
\n\nIn this show, we talk about a significant upcoming tax law change that will have substantial reporting requirements for every business owner with a legal entity, as well as the company's shareholders.
\n\nLucy also delved deeper into some other parts of the tax code that are helpful for individuals to be aware of, but the average person may not know.
\n\nIt's up right now at www.IC-DISCshow.com/034.
\n\n![](\"https://assets.fireside.fm/file/fireside-images/podcasts/images/d/d61cedee-227d-47c8-8d74-3407972d4afc/guests/0/03aaea88-4f1e-4b61-8360-7098e9fd337a/avatar_thumb.jpg\"){kind=avatar} | \n Lucy Petry | \n
Special Guest: Lucy Petry.
","summary":"In today's episode of the IC-DISC Show, we have the pleasure of talking to Lucy Petry, an accomplished tax professional and attorney who recently received her LLM in taxation. She has also been a professor for accounting classes at the University of St. Thomas and law classes at the South Texas College of Law. \r\n\r\nIn this show, we talk about a significant upcoming tax law change that will have substantial reporting requirements for every business owner with a legal entity, as well as the company's shareholders.\r\n\r\nLucy also delved deeper into some other parts of the tax code that are helpful for individuals to be aware of, but the average person may not know.\r\n\r\nIt's up right now at www.IC-DISCshow.com/034.\r\n\r\n","date_published":"2022-07-15T07:00:00.000-05:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/d61cedee-227d-47c8-8d74-3407972d4afc/bedebc3b-8f39-4996-8aaa-cd76a02d673f.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":29462252,"duration_in_seconds":2398}]},{"id":"09dbd944-9aa6-437e-9ae4-5bfacd27b5f6","title":"Ep033: Operating With Strategic Advantage with Brett Ekart","url":"https://www.ic-discshow.com/033","content_text":"Today on the IC-DISC Show, we're speaking with Brett Ekart, CEO of United Metals Recycling, a metals recycling and processing company based in Boise, Idaho, and host of the podcast A Scrap Life.\n\nBrett grew up in the recycling industry. He loves its potential, and this life-long engagement has given him a different perspective on the business. Instead of considering it a commodity business, he views it as a customer-service business. \n\nWe discuss this idea and the strategies he's successfully used in the scrap and recycling industry, continuously leveraging any unique advantage to get ahead of his competition.\n\nThis is a great show, and the ideas Brett shares can be applied by any entrepreneur in any industry.\n\n\n\nLINKSShow Notes\nBe a Guest\nAbout the IC-DISC Alliance\nAbout United Metals\n\nGUEST\n\n\n\n Brett EkartAbout Brett\n\n\nSpecial Guest: Brett Ekart.","content_html":"Today on the IC-DISC Show, we're speaking with Brett Ekart, CEO of United Metals Recycling, a metals recycling and processing company based in Boise, Idaho, and host of the podcast A Scrap Life.
\n\nBrett grew up in the recycling industry. He loves its potential, and this life-long engagement has given him a different perspective on the business. Instead of considering it a commodity business, he views it as a customer-service business.
\n\nWe discuss this idea and the strategies he's successfully used in the scrap and recycling industry, continuously leveraging any unique advantage to get ahead of his competition.
\n\nThis is a great show, and the ideas Brett shares can be applied by any entrepreneur in any industry.
\n\n![](\"https://assets.fireside.fm/file/fireside-images/podcasts/images/d/d61cedee-227d-47c8-8d74-3407972d4afc/guests/3/3bf4fab2-247d-491b-9998-62e7dcf1606c/avatar_thumb.jpg?v=1\"){kind=avatar} | \n Brett Ekart | \n
Special Guest: Brett Ekart.
","summary":"Today on the IC-DISC Show, we're speaking with Brett Ekart, CEO of United Metals Recycling, a metals recycling and processing company based in Boise, Idaho, and host of the podcast A Scrap Life.\r\n\r\nBrett grew up in the recycling industry. He loves its potential, and this life-long engagement has given him a different perspective on the business. Instead of considering it a commodity business, he views it as a customer-service business. \r\n\r\nWe discuss this idea and the strategies he's successfully used in the scrap and recycling industry, continuously leveraging any unique advantage to get ahead of his competition.\r\n\r\nThis is a great show, and the ideas Brett shares can be applied by any entrepreneur in any industry.","date_published":"2022-06-15T07:00:00.000-05:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/d61cedee-227d-47c8-8d74-3407972d4afc/09dbd944-9aa6-437e-9ae4-5bfacd27b5f6.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":46352650,"duration_in_seconds":3788}]},{"id":"c6fbb3cd-602a-478c-ac37-25998adebcb4","title":"Ep032: The IC-DISC Alliance with Brian Schwam & Jim Fyhrie","url":"https://www.ic-discshow.com/032","content_text":"In today's IC-DISC Show, I am joined by Brian Schwam & Jim Fyhrie of WTP Advisors, for a special episode as we announce the formation of the IC-DISC Alliance. \n\nThe Alliance is a collaboration between the premiere IC-DISC consulting firms in the country with the goal of being the most comprehensive IC-DISC resource available anywhere. The founding members of the Alliance are Export Advisors and WTP Advisors.\n\nIn the show, we get a chance to explore the background of the Alliance and the advantages it brings to clients and their advisors. To learn more about the IC-DISC Alliance, visit https://ic-disc.com.\n\n\nLINKSShow Notes\nBe a Guest\nAbout the IC-DISC Alliance\n\nGUESTS\n\n\n\n Jim FyhrieAbout Jim\n\n\n\n Brian SchwamAbout Brian\n\n\nSpecial Guests: Brian Schwam and Jim Fyhrie.","content_html":"In today's IC-DISC Show, I am joined by Brian Schwam & Jim Fyhrie of WTP Advisors, for a special episode as we announce the formation of the IC-DISC Alliance.
\n\nThe Alliance is a collaboration between the premiere IC-DISC consulting firms in the country with the goal of being the most comprehensive IC-DISC resource available anywhere. The founding members of the Alliance are Export Advisors and WTP Advisors.
\n\nIn the show, we get a chance to explore the background of the Alliance and the advantages it brings to clients and their advisors. To learn more about the IC-DISC Alliance, visit https://ic-disc.com.
\n
![](\"https://assets.fireside.fm/file/fireside-images/podcasts/images/d/d61cedee-227d-47c8-8d74-3407972d4afc/guests/5/53a94f73-73a3-47f1-a25c-3cd5f5eefa85/avatar_thumb.jpg?v=3\"){kind=avatar} | \n Jim Fyhrie | \n
| \n Brian Schwam | \n
Special Guests: Brian Schwam and Jim Fyhrie.
","summary":"n today's IC-DISC Show, I am joined by Brian Schwam & Jim Fyhrie of WTP Advisors, for a special episode as we announce the formation of the IC-DISC Alliance. \r\n\r\nThe Alliance is a collaboration between the premiere IC-DISC consulting firms in the country with the goal of being the most comprehensive IC-DISC resource available anywhere. The founding members of the Alliance are Export Advisors and WTP Advisors.\r\n\r\nIn the show, we get a chance to explore the background of the Alliance and the advantages it brings to clients and their advisors. To learn more about the IC-DISC Alliance, visit https://ic-disc.com.","date_published":"2022-05-18T07:45:00.000-05:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/d61cedee-227d-47c8-8d74-3407972d4afc/c6fbb3cd-602a-478c-ac37-25998adebcb4.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":41633952,"duration_in_seconds":2636}]},{"id":"fabb8d96-6213-4623-82c5-39018eb30a37","title":"Ep031: Financing and Growing Your Business with Ben Lehrer ","url":"https://www.ic-discshow.com/031","content_text":"Today on the IC-DISC Show, we have the pleasure of talking to Ben Lehrer, the founder and CEO of First Water, an advisory firm here in Houston. \n\nFirst Water connects teams with data to companies with capital through a concept Ben calls \"Relational Finance\" and in this episode, we talk about Ben's background, what inspired him to start First Water, the type of companies they help, and his book, \"Relational Finance: The New Model to Accelerate Growth, Attract Capital, and Maximize the Value of Your Business.\"\n\nBen's company is unique in the mergers and acquisitions world, and if you're an entrepreneur with an established business that's looking to grow organically or through acquisition, then this episode is for you. \n\n\n\nLINKSShow Notes\nBe a Guest\nAbout Export Advisors\nAbout First Water\n\nGUEST\n\n\n\n Ben LehrerAbout Ben\n\n\nSpecial Guest: Ben Lehrer.","content_html":"Today on the IC-DISC Show, we have the pleasure of talking to Ben Lehrer, the founder and CEO of First Water, an advisory firm here in Houston.
\n\nFirst Water connects teams with data to companies with capital through a concept Ben calls "Relational Finance" and in this episode, we talk about Ben's background, what inspired him to start First Water, the type of companies they help, and his book, "Relational Finance: The New Model to Accelerate Growth, Attract Capital, and Maximize the Value of Your Business."
\n\nBen's company is unique in the mergers and acquisitions world, and if you're an entrepreneur with an established business that's looking to grow organically or through acquisition, then this episode is for you.
\n\n![](\"https://assets.fireside.fm/file/fireside-images/podcasts/images/d/d61cedee-227d-47c8-8d74-3407972d4afc/guests/7/79f1eb3f-f130-47d9-8228-f7aff772b7b0/avatar_thumb.jpg\"){kind=avatar} | \n Ben Lehrer | \n
Special Guest: Ben Lehrer.
","summary":"Today on the IC-DISC Show, we have the pleasure of talking to the founder and CEO of First Water, an advisory firm here in Houston, Ben Lehrer. \r\n\r\nFirst Water connects teams with data to companies with capital through a concept Ben calls \"Relational Finance\" and in this episode, we talk about Ben's background, what inspired him to start First Water, the type of companies they help, and his book, \"Relational Finance: The New Model to Accelerate Growth, Attract Capital, and Maximize the Value of Your Business.\"\r\n\r\nBen's company is unique in the mergers and acquisitions world, and if you're an entrepreneur with an established business that's looking to grow organically or through acquisition, then this episode is for you. ","date_published":"2022-04-25T07:00:00.000-05:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/d61cedee-227d-47c8-8d74-3407972d4afc/fabb8d96-6213-4623-82c5-39018eb30a37.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":34850540,"duration_in_seconds":2895}]},{"id":"e1456822-33f4-4f81-a85b-282f89694c3a","title":"Ep030: Earning Internal & External Loyalty with Chris Dooley","url":"https://www.ic-discshow.com/030","content_text":"Today on the IC-DISC Show, we're talking with Chris Dooley, CEO of Dooley Tackaberry, a fourth-generation firm founded 97 years ago in Beaumont, Texas. \n\nThe company is one of the most reliable suppliers of fire and safety products to oil, gas, and municipal markets, and we had a great conversation about what it's like to be the fourth generation of a family-run business. Chris has an amazing relationship with his employees, and he describes the company as being like an extended family that functions like a well-oiled machine. \n\nWe further discuss how this relationship and the company's nimble approach to requests from small and Fortune 100 companies lead to deeper customer satisfaction and loyalty. \n\nThis is a great show, with many examples of a company focusing on becoming a trusted partner.\n\nLINKSShow Notes\nBe a Guest\nAbout Export Advisors\nAbout Dooley Tackaberry\n\nGUEST\n\n\n\nChris DooleyAbout Chris\nSpecial Guest: Chris Dooley.","content_html":"Today on the IC-DISC Show, we're talking with Chris Dooley, CEO of Dooley Tackaberry, a fourth-generation firm founded 97 years ago in Beaumont, Texas.
\n\nThe company is one of the most reliable suppliers of fire and safety products to oil, gas, and municipal markets, and we had a great conversation about what it's like to be the fourth generation of a family-run business. Chris has an amazing relationship with his employees, and he describes the company as being like an extended family that functions like a well-oiled machine.
\n\nWe further discuss how this relationship and the company's nimble approach to requests from small and Fortune 100 companies lead to deeper customer satisfaction and loyalty.
\n\nThis is a great show, with many examples of a company focusing on becoming a trusted partner.
\n\n![](\"https://assets.fireside.fm/file/fireside-images/podcasts/images/d/d61cedee-227d-47c8-8d74-3407972d4afc/guests/0/06930304-7d57-46f7-a232-c56713d2b331/avatar_thumb.jpg\"){kind=avatar} | \nChris Dooley | \n
Special Guest: Chris Dooley.
","summary":"Today on the IC-DISC Show, we're talking with Chris Dooley, CEO of Dooley Tackaberry, a fourth-generation firm founded 97 years ago in Beaumont, Texas. \r\n\r\nThe company is one of the most reliable suppliers of fire and safety products to oil, gas, and municipal markets, and we had a great conversation about what it's like to be the fourth generation of a family-run business. Chris has an amazing relationship with his employees, and he describes the company as being like an extended family that functions like a well-oiled machine. \r\n\r\nWe further discuss how this relationship and the company's nimble approach to requests from small and Fortune 100 companies lead to deeper customer satisfaction and loyalty. \r\n\r\nThis is a great show, with many examples of a company focusing on becoming a trusted partner.","date_published":"2022-03-24T09:00:00.000-05:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/d61cedee-227d-47c8-8d74-3407972d4afc/e1456822-33f4-4f81-a85b-282f89694c3a.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":46610060,"duration_in_seconds":2913}]},{"id":"02401e0d-2a17-440c-a482-de2b7996bc6c","title":"Ep029: The Business Owner's Dilemma with Ali Nasser","url":"https://www.ic-discshow.com/029","content_text":"Ali, you may remember, has a hugely successful wealth management firm based in Houston, but he is back as a guest because he's just released his new book, The Business Owner's Dilemma looking at the 3 dilemmas we face as business owners.\n\nIt's a great conversation talking about the book, why he wrote it, how he sees it as more of a ROLE (return on life experience) project rather than an ROI project, and why entrepreneurs are fundamentally different from non-entrepreneurs when it comes to wealth and legacy planning.\n\nOne of the book's biggest takeaways is to achieve clarity and a path toward planning and capturing your life's work, so I highly recommend checking out Ali's book at www.alinasser.com.\n\nLINKSShow Notes\nBe a Guest\nAbout Export Advisors\nAbout The Business Owner's Dilemma\n\nGUEST\n\n\n\nAli NasserAbout Ali\nSpecial Guest: Ali Nasser.","content_html":"Ali, you may remember, has a hugely successful wealth management firm based in Houston, but he is back as a guest because he's just released his new book, The Business Owner's Dilemma looking at the 3 dilemmas we face as business owners.
\n\nIt's a great conversation talking about the book, why he wrote it, how he sees it as more of a ROLE (return on life experience) project rather than an ROI project, and why entrepreneurs are fundamentally different from non-entrepreneurs when it comes to wealth and legacy planning.
\n\nOne of the book's biggest takeaways is to achieve clarity and a path toward planning and capturing your life's work, so I highly recommend checking out Ali's book at www.alinasser.com.
\n\nAbout The Business Owner's Dilemma
\n![](\"https://assets.fireside.fm/file/fireside-images/podcasts/images/d/d61cedee-227d-47c8-8d74-3407972d4afc/guests/2/27737820-e70d-4900-b8e9-4dacde2eadd8/avatar_thumb.jpg\"){kind=avatar} | \nAli Nasser | \n
Special Guest: Ali Nasser.
","summary":"Ali, you may remember, has a hugely successful wealth management firm based in Houston, but he is back as a guest because he's just released his new book, The Business Owner's Dilemma looking at the 3 dilemmas we face as business owners.\r\n\r\nIt's a great conversation talking about the book, why he wrote it, how he sees it as more of a ROLE (return on life experience) project rather than an ROI project, and why entrepreneurs are fundamentally different from non-entrepreneurs when it comes to wealth and legacy planning.\r\n\r\nOne of the book's biggest takeaways is to achieve clarity and a path toward planning and capturing your life's work, so I highly recommend checking out Ali's book at www.alinasser.com.\r\n","date_published":"2022-02-22T16:00:00.000-06:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/d61cedee-227d-47c8-8d74-3407972d4afc/02401e0d-2a17-440c-a482-de2b7996bc6c.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":33987531,"duration_in_seconds":2823}]},{"id":"7069503f-c215-4a06-a38f-349443ab4300","title":"Ep028: Understanding COVID Tax Credits with Dave Manges","url":"https://www.ic-discshow.com/028","content_text":"Today on the IC-DISC Show, we're talking with Dave Manges, Founder and President of Reinsman Consulting, a specialty consulting firm based in Dallas, Texas, helping small and medium-size businesses navigate the complexities of the Employee Retention Credit and other COVID-19 stimulus programs.\n\nDave has an interesting story. He was on a partnership track at a big four accounting firm, but when the various COVID relief packages came into effect, he saw an opportunity to focus on helping the small and medium market. His employer was focused on the higher-end, larger firm market, so Dave took the chance and launched his firm to support this group. He hasn't looked back since.\n\nHe has a real passion for helping business owners, thriving on doing a great job for them, and this episode has some great insights into the tax credits and stimulus packages that are available and how his diverse background contributes to his ongoing success.\n\nIf you are interested in exploring your situation with Dave, let me know and I'll connect you.\n\nLINKSShow Notes\nBe a Guest\nAbout Export Advisors\nAbout Reinsman Consulting\n\nGUEST\n\n\n\nDave MangesAbout Dave\nSpecial Guest: Dave Manges.","content_html":"Today on the IC-DISC Show, we're talking with Dave Manges, Founder and President of Reinsman Consulting, a specialty consulting firm based in Dallas, Texas, helping small and medium-size businesses navigate the complexities of the Employee Retention Credit and other COVID-19 stimulus programs.
\n\nDave has an interesting story. He was on a partnership track at a big four accounting firm, but when the various COVID relief packages came into effect, he saw an opportunity to focus on helping the small and medium market. His employer was focused on the higher-end, larger firm market, so Dave took the chance and launched his firm to support this group. He hasn't looked back since.
\n\nHe has a real passion for helping business owners, thriving on doing a great job for them, and this episode has some great insights into the tax credits and stimulus packages that are available and how his diverse background contributes to his ongoing success.
\n\nIf you are interested in exploring your situation with Dave, let me know and I'll connect you.
\n\n![](\"https://assets.fireside.fm/file/fireside-images/podcasts/images/d/d61cedee-227d-47c8-8d74-3407972d4afc/guests/c/c6ae6f85-3cbb-45ff-9466-ee181f552ed8/avatar_thumb.jpg\"){kind=avatar} | \nDave Manges | \n
Special Guest: Dave Manges.
","summary":"Today on the IC-DISC Show, we're talking with Dave Manges, Founder and President of Reinsman Consulting, a specialty consulting firm based in Dallas, Texas, helping small and medium-size businesses navigate the complexities of the Employee Retention Credit and other COVID-19 stimulus programs.\r\n\r\nDave has an interesting story. He was on a partnership track at a big four accounting firm, but when the various COVID relief packages came into effect, he saw an opportunity to focus on helping the small and medium market. His employer was focused on the higher-end, larger firm market, so Dave took the chance and launched his firm to support this group. He hasn't looked back since.\r\n\r\nHe has a real passion for helping business owners, thriving on doing a great job for them, and this episode has some great insights into the tax credits and stimulus packages that are available and how his diverse background contributes to his ongoing success.","date_published":"2022-02-01T09:45:00.000-06:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/d61cedee-227d-47c8-8d74-3407972d4afc/7069503f-c215-4a06-a38f-349443ab4300.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":37660475,"duration_in_seconds":3129}]},{"id":"fae18f79-90e5-4660-877a-34de3d620880","title":"Ep027: Total Quality Management with Michael Kramer","url":"https://www.ic-discshow.com/027","content_text":"Today on the IC-DISC Show, we're talking with Michael Kramer, President of ManageHub, a specialty consulting firm based in Chicago, who use the Malcolm Baldridge principles of total quality management to dramatically improve a company's quality and performance in a relatively short period of time.\n\nWe had a great conversation about some of the client successes he's had, the history of Baldrige, and also what a tremendously underutilized, American-made system Baldrige is. \n\nMike really has a passion for sharing this system high and wide to every US company, so if you've ever wanted to learn more about the benefit of exceptional quality and excellence in your own organization, this episode has a lot of great ideas and insights.\n\nLINKSShow Notes\nBe a Guest\nAbout Export Advisors\nAbout ManageHub\nBaldridge 2020 Executive Guide\n\nGUEST\n\n\n\nMichael KramerAbout Michael\nSpecial Guest: Michael Kramer.","content_html":"Today on the IC-DISC Show, we're talking with Michael Kramer, President of ManageHub, a specialty consulting firm based in Chicago, who use the Malcolm Baldridge principles of total quality management to dramatically improve a company's quality and performance in a relatively short period of time.
\n\nWe had a great conversation about some of the client successes he's had, the history of Baldrige, and also what a tremendously underutilized, American-made system Baldrige is.
\n\nMike really has a passion for sharing this system high and wide to every US company, so if you've ever wanted to learn more about the benefit of exceptional quality and excellence in your own organization, this episode has a lot of great ideas and insights.
\n\nBaldridge 2020 Executive Guide
\n![](\"https://assets.fireside.fm/file/fireside-images/podcasts/images/d/d61cedee-227d-47c8-8d74-3407972d4afc/guests/1/1f0e7134-97bf-49b5-ac70-347152ba8f8e/avatar_thumb.jpg\"){kind=avatar} | \nMichael Kramer | \n
Special Guest: Michael Kramer.
","summary":"Today on the IC-DISC Show, we're talking with Michael Kramer, President of ManageHub, a specialty consulting firm based in Chicago, who use the Malcolm Baldridge principles of total quality management to dramatically improve a company's quality and performance in a relatively short period of time.\r\n\r\nWe had a great conversation about some of the client successes he's had, the history of Baldrige, and also what a tremendously underutilized, American-made system Baldrige is. \r\n\r\nMike really has a passion for sharing this system high and wide to every US company, so if you've ever wanted to learn more about the benefit of exceptional quality and excellence in your own organization, this episode has a lot of great ideas and insights.","date_published":"2021-10-14T08:00:00.000-05:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/d61cedee-227d-47c8-8d74-3407972d4afc/fae18f79-90e5-4660-877a-34de3d620880.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":35185305,"duration_in_seconds":2923}]},{"id":"86ff5671-c1c6-4e7d-a716-25c8c94e3bd8","title":"Ep026: Premium Financed Insurance with John McDonough","url":"https://www.ic-discshow.com/026","content_text":"Today on the IC-DISC Show, we're talking with John McDonough, a Financed Insurance Specialist based in Houston.\n\nJohn works with ultra high-net-worth families and C-suite executives to create innovative insurance solutions, and this is a very interesting episode because we had the opportunity to talk about his services and the challenge of helping people understand these new ideas. \n\nHe has a detailed understanding of the leverage that premium finance life insurance can provide to the ultra-wealthy for estate tax liquidity, and to companies for executive retention in the C-suite, and this really was one of the most interesting calls I've had in a long time.\n\nLINKSShow Notes\nBe a Guest\nGUEST\n\n\n\nJohn McDonoughAbout John\nSpecial Guest: John McDonough.","content_html":"Today on the IC-DISC Show, we're talking with John McDonough, a Financed Insurance Specialist based in Houston.
\n\nJohn works with ultra high-net-worth families and C-suite executives to create innovative insurance solutions, and this is a very interesting episode because we had the opportunity to talk about his services and the challenge of helping people understand these new ideas.
\n\nHe has a detailed understanding of the leverage that premium finance life insurance can provide to the ultra-wealthy for estate tax liquidity, and to companies for executive retention in the C-suite, and this really was one of the most interesting calls I've had in a long time.
\n\n![](\"https://assets.fireside.fm/file/fireside-images/podcasts/images/d/d61cedee-227d-47c8-8d74-3407972d4afc/guests/e/ecfbd23e-62a7-4f0c-b407-277682519fbc/avatar_thumb.jpg\"){kind=avatar} | \nJohn McDonough | \n
Special Guest: John McDonough.
","summary":"Today on the IC-DISC Show, we're talking with John McDonough, a Financed Insurance Specialist based in Houston.\r\n\r\nJohn works with ultra high-net-worth families and C-suite executives to create innovative insurance solutions, and this is a very interesting episode because we had the opportunity to talk about his services and the challenge of helping people understand these new ideas. \r\n\r\nHe has a detailed understanding of the leverage that premium finance life insurance can provide to the ultra-wealthy for estate tax liquidity, and to companies for executive retention in the C-suite, and this really was one of the most interesting calls I've had in a long time.","date_published":"2021-08-25T15:00:00.000-05:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/d61cedee-227d-47c8-8d74-3407972d4afc/86ff5671-c1c6-4e7d-a716-25c8c94e3bd8.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":45662714,"duration_in_seconds":3796}]},{"id":"aae962f9-1fa5-4f06-880d-77f1d791d70a","title":"Ep025: The IC-DISC in 2021","url":"https://www.ic-discshow.com/025","content_text":"Today on the IC-DISC Show, we have a little different type of podcast. Rather than speaking with a guest, I'm going to do a short episode in which I answer the most common questions we've received this year about the future of the IC-DISC given the new administration.\n\nA change in administration always raises concerns, so I want to share some of the opportunities and challenges of using the program.\n\nQ&A shows always raise more questions, so if there are any points I didn't cover, please use the contact form to send me a message.\n\nLINKSShow Notes TranscriptBe a Guest","content_html":"Today on the IC-DISC Show, we have a little different type of podcast. Rather than speaking with a guest, I'm going to do a short episode in which I answer the most common questions we've received this year about the future of the IC-DISC given the new administration.
\n\nA change in administration always raises concerns, so I want to share some of the opportunities and challenges of using the program.
\n\nQ&A shows always raise more questions, so if there are any points I didn't cover, please use the contact form to send me a message.
\n\nToday on the IC-DISC Show, we're talking with Paul Liberato, President of Billy Pugh, a pioneering offshore safety equipment company based in Corpus Christi, Texas.
\n\nI've known Paul for some time but didn't know his entire story. This podcast was a great opportunity to understand some of what he's achieved since becoming President.
\n\nFor the last 32 years, some of their best product solutions have come from customers with real-life problems, and we had a really insightful conversation about this strong customer/supplier relationship and how that makes a company stronger.
\n\nI enjoyed this episode and the chance to talk about the possibilities that come from learning from your customers.
\n\n![](\"https://assets.fireside.fm/file/fireside-images/podcasts/images/d/d61cedee-227d-47c8-8d74-3407972d4afc/guests/3/337c31b7-3c1c-48a4-b8cc-17ef88aa423c/avatar_small.jpg\"){kind=avatar} | \nRon Baker | \n
Special Guest: Paul Liberato.
","summary":"Today on the IC-DISC Show, we're talking with Paul Liberato, President of Billy Pugh, a pioneering offshore safety equipment company based in Corpus Cristi, Texas. I've known Paul for some time but didn't know his story. Since becoming President, some of their best product solutions have come from customers with real-life problems, so we had a really insightful conversation about this strong customer/supplier relationship and how that makes a company stronger.","date_published":"2021-05-07T09:00:00.000-05:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/d61cedee-227d-47c8-8d74-3407972d4afc/3af58b7c-a119-4ce2-88bb-7f4988346b24.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":45120012,"duration_in_seconds":3674}]},{"id":"287fc061-d869-4cc2-85ad-e25715b75bd4","title":"Ep023: Revolutionary Pricing with Ron Baker","url":"https://www.ic-discshow.com/023","content_text":"Today on the IC-DISC Show, we're talking with Ron Baker, founder of VeraSage Institute, a think tank dedicated to teaching value-based pricing, and host of the Soul of Enterprise podcast.\n\nThis really was a bucket list interview for me. Ron's work has literally added millions of dollars of value to our business and our clients. \n\nHe's an amazing thought leader, and if you're in an industry where billable hours are the prevailing idea, his insights into revolutionary pricing models can be a game-changer for your business.\n\nEven if you're not in a professional services business, his ideas on creating subscription services for all kinds of businesses are really interesting. \n\nSo, we had a wide-ranging conversation. He had lots of great examples, and I'm sure you'll find something to make you think about your pricing in this episode.\n\nLINKSShow Notes TranscriptBe a GuestGUEST\n\n\n\nRon BakerAbout Ron\nSpecial Guest: Ron Baker.","content_html":"Today on the IC-DISC Show, we're talking with Ron Baker, founder of VeraSage Institute, a think tank dedicated to teaching value-based pricing, and host of the Soul of Enterprise podcast.
\n\nThis really was a bucket list interview for me. Ron's work has literally added millions of dollars of value to our business and our clients.
\n\nHe's an amazing thought leader, and if you're in an industry where billable hours are the prevailing idea, his insights into revolutionary pricing models can be a game-changer for your business.
\n\nEven if you're not in a professional services business, his ideas on creating subscription services for all kinds of businesses are really interesting.
\n\nSo, we had a wide-ranging conversation. He had lots of great examples, and I'm sure you'll find something to make you think about your pricing in this episode.
\n\n![](\"https://assets.fireside.fm/file/fireside-images/podcasts/images/d/d61cedee-227d-47c8-8d74-3407972d4afc/guests/4/4537adcd-6e86-49b6-abf9-c3951197e36f/avatar_small.jpg\"){kind=avatar} | \nRon Baker | \n
Special Guest: Ron Baker.
","summary":"Today on the IC-DISC Show, we're talking with Ron Baker, founder of VeraSage Institute, a think tank dedicated to teaching value-based pricing, and host of the Soul of Enterprise podcast.\r\n\r\nRon's work has literally added millions of dollars of value to our business and our clients, and if you're in an industry where billable hours are the prevailing idea, his insights into revolutionary pricing models can be a game-changer for your business.","date_published":"2021-04-09T14:00:00.000-05:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/d61cedee-227d-47c8-8d74-3407972d4afc/287fc061-d869-4cc2-85ad-e25715b75bd4.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":56019693,"duration_in_seconds":4659}]},{"id":"b12ff4f8-d1c3-4525-a42f-ed0fc91000ca","title":"Ep022: CPA Misconceptions with Randy Reimer","url":"https://www.ic-discshow.com/022","content_text":"Today on the IC-DISC Show, I'm talking with my good friend Randy Reimer, owner of Houston-based boutique CPA firm Reimer, McGuinness & Associates.\n\nWe had a great, wide-ranging conversation about Randy's experience, including talking about some of the misconceptions people have about CPA firms and some of the mistakes entrepreneurs make when setting up their business.\n\nRandy has been the CPA for our firm and our family for many years, so it was especially exciting to be able to share some of his knowledge on the show.\n\n \n\nHave you ever wanted your own podcast?\n\nI've created a 2-minute scorecard at YourPodcastScore.com that looks at eight indicators of how a podcast can amplify your message.\n\nIf you've ever wondered if a podcast is right for you, take a look.\n\nLINKSShow Notes TranscriptBe a GuestGUEST\n\n\n\nRandy ReimerAbout Randy\nSpecial Guest: Randy Reimer.","content_html":"Today on the IC-DISC Show, I'm talking with my good friend Randy Reimer, owner of Houston-based boutique CPA firm Reimer, McGuinness & Associates.
\n\nWe had a great, wide-ranging conversation about Randy's experience, including talking about some of the misconceptions people have about CPA firms and some of the mistakes entrepreneurs make when setting up their business.
\n\nRandy has been the CPA for our firm and our family for many years, so it was especially exciting to be able to share some of his knowledge on the show.
\n\n\n\n
Have you ever wanted your own podcast?
\n\nI've created a 2-minute scorecard at YourPodcastScore.com that looks at eight indicators of how a podcast can amplify your message.
\n\nIf you've ever wondered if a podcast is right for you, take a look.
\n\n![](\"https://assets.fireside.fm/file/fireside-images/podcasts/images/d/d61cedee-227d-47c8-8d74-3407972d4afc/guests/0/04e576dc-abdb-430f-89e2-907797815945/avatar_small.jpg\"){kind=avatar} | \nRandy Reimer | \n
Special Guest: Randy Reimer.
","summary":"Today on the IC-DISC Show, I'm talking with my good friend Randy Reimer, owner of Houston-based boutique CPA firm Reimer, McGuinness & Associates.\r\nWe had a great, wide-ranging conversation about Randy's experience, including talking about some of the misconceptions people have about CPA firms and some of the mistakes entrepreneurs make when setting up their business.","date_published":"2021-03-19T08:00:00.000-05:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/d61cedee-227d-47c8-8d74-3407972d4afc/b12ff4f8-d1c3-4525-a42f-ed0fc91000ca.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":43115635,"duration_in_seconds":3584}]},{"id":"6c071196-2645-4f9f-94b8-99581c3ed973","title":"Ep021: Delivering Results with Dave Kane","url":"https://www.ic-discshow.com/021","content_text":"Today on the IC-DISC Show, we're talking with Dave Kane, President of 21st Century Programming, a software company that creates programs for scrap recyclers to run and improve their business.\n\nDave's name will be familiar to many in the scrap metal business, but even if you're in a different industry, this is an interesting episode because of 21st Century's approach to developing software based on the needs of their clients.\n\nI really enjoyed this conversation looking at the history of the company, how customers requirements and expectations have changed over the years, and we also had the chance to discuss a new collaboration between Export Advisors and 21st Century Programming to help scrap exporters quickly identify the tax savings they could achieve from an IC-DISC.\n\nThis is a great episode that really highlights the opportunity to create a win for your clients by removing any friction.\n\nLINKSShow Notes TranscriptBe a GuestGUEST\n\n\n\nDave KaneAbout Dave\nSpecial Guest: Dave Kane.","content_html":"Today on the IC-DISC Show, we're talking with Dave Kane, President of 21st Century Programming, a software company that creates programs for scrap recyclers to run and improve their business.
\n\nDave's name will be familiar to many in the scrap metal business, but even if you're in a different industry, this is an interesting episode because of 21st Century's approach to developing software based on the needs of their clients.
\n\nI really enjoyed this conversation looking at the history of the company, how customers requirements and expectations have changed over the years, and we also had the chance to discuss a new collaboration between Export Advisors and 21st Century Programming to help scrap exporters quickly identify the tax savings they could achieve from an IC-DISC.
\n\nThis is a great episode that really highlights the opportunity to create a win for your clients by removing any friction.
\n\n![](\"https://assets.fireside.fm/file/fireside-images/podcasts/images/d/d61cedee-227d-47c8-8d74-3407972d4afc/guests/5/518ad63b-3afc-44d3-8ca4-66cb3a1be488/avatar_small.jpg\"){kind=avatar} | \nDave Kane | \n
Special Guest: Dave Kane.
","summary":"Today on the IC-DISC Show, we're talking with Dave Kane, President of 21st Century Programming, a software company that creates programs for scrap recyclers to run and improve their business. I really enjoyed this conversation looking at the history of the company, how customers requirements and expectations have changed over the years, and we also had the chance to discuss a new collaboration between Export Advisors and 21st Century Programming to help scrap exporters quickly identify the tax savings they could achieve from an IC-DISC.","date_published":"2021-03-03T11:00:00.000-06:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/d61cedee-227d-47c8-8d74-3407972d4afc/6c071196-2645-4f9f-94b8-99581c3ed973.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":48720136,"duration_in_seconds":4051}]},{"id":"720c5c6b-2a2e-43e3-8441-bebfe204062b","title":"Ep020: Choosing a Specialist with Ron Hallmark","url":"https://www.ic-discshow.com/020","content_text":"Today on the IC-DISC Show, we're talking with Ron Hallmark of Hibbs-Hallmark, a specialty property and casualty insurance broker with a focus on the scrap metal industry. This was a great episode and especially useful for anyone in the scrap metal industry because, whereas many of these companies are served by generalist brokers, Ron's company approaches insurance from the opposite perspective. They focus on just one industry, nationwide. We dive into some of the reasons using a specialty insurance broker can really make a lot of economic sense when it comes to things like potentially dramatically lower premiums, better coverage, and better outcomes in the event of a claim. I really enjoyed this episode. There is a lot to take away. LINKSShow Notes TranscriptBe a GuestGUEST\n\n\n\nRon HallmarkAbout Ron\nSpecial Guest: Ron Hallmark.","content_html":"Today on the IC-DISC Show, we're talking with Ron Hallmark of Hibbs-Hallmark, a specialty property and casualty insurance broker with a focus on the scrap metal industry.
This was a great episode and especially useful for anyone in the scrap metal industry because, whereas many of these companies are served by generalist brokers, Ron's company approaches insurance from the opposite perspective. They focus on just one industry, nationwide.
We dive into some of the reasons using a specialty insurance broker can really make a lot of economic sense when it comes to things like potentially dramatically lower premiums, better coverage, and better outcomes in the event of a claim.
I really enjoyed this episode. There is a lot to take away.
![](\"https://assets.fireside.fm/file/fireside-images/podcasts/images/d/d61cedee-227d-47c8-8d74-3407972d4afc/guests/2/2a9faf72-b619-44c6-83ab-390631eaa2c2/avatar_small.jpg\"){kind=avatar} | \nRon Hallmark | \n
Special Guest: Ron Hallmark.
","summary":"Today on the IC-DISC Show, we're talking with Ron Hallmark of Hibbs-Hallmark, a specialty property and casualty insurance broker with a focus on the scrap metal industry. This was a great episode and especially useful for anyone in the scrap metal...","date_published":"2021-02-17T06:00:00.000-06:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/d61cedee-227d-47c8-8d74-3407972d4afc/f99f0610-fb2c-4f3a-8b2c-0345fcaaafe8.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":29882549,"duration_in_seconds":2414}]},{"id":"9b62fb74-0c3c-4f09-9357-4606c271145a","title":"Ep019: Creating Value with John Warrillow","url":"https://www.ic-discshow.com/019","content_text":"Today on the IC-DISC Show, we're talking with John Warrillow, best selling author of books including Built To Sell and The Art of Selling Your Business, and founder of The Value Builder System™, a simple software for building the value of a company used by thousands of businesses worldwide. This is a great conversation. I've know John for some time and have been looking forward to sharing his thinking and approach to building a business that can thrive without you. There are a lot of ideas you can take action on in this episode. LINKSShow Notes TranscriptBe a GuestGUEST\n\n\n\nJohn WarrilowAbout John\nSpecial Guest: John Warrillow.","content_html":"Today on the IC-DISC Show, we're talking with John Warrillow, best selling author of books including Built To Sell and The Art of Selling Your Business, and founder of The Value Builder System™, a simple software for building the value of a company used by thousands of businesses worldwide.
This is a great conversation. I've know John for some time and have been looking forward to sharing his thinking and approach to building a business that can thrive without you.
There are a lot of ideas you can take action on in this episode.
![](\"https://assets.fireside.fm/file/fireside-images/podcasts/images/d/d61cedee-227d-47c8-8d74-3407972d4afc/guests/3/3124b3fc-e21e-4b21-8e31-98404911ba35/avatar_small.jpg\"){kind=avatar} | \nJohn Warrilow | \n
Special Guest: John Warrillow.
","summary":"Today on the IC-DISC Show, we're talking with John Warrillow, best selling author of books including Built To Sell and The Art of Selling Your Business, and founder of The Value Builder System™, a simple software for building the value of a company...","date_published":"2021-02-09T09:00:00.000-06:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/d61cedee-227d-47c8-8d74-3407972d4afc/9c5c06f8-2cf4-466b-a389-b86e05e7ab9c.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":37135757,"duration_in_seconds":3063}]},{"id":"3a88ac7f-c2ae-430d-87d0-ce9ed43776e9","title":"Ep018: A Journey Helping Others with Sheila Enriquez","url":"https://www.ic-discshow.com/018","content_text":"Today on the IC-DISC Show, we're talking with Sheila Enriquez, the managing partner of CPA firm Briggs and Veselka here in Houston. This was a fantastic interview with a really amazing person. Sheila is the first guest I've had who was not born in the USA, and she really epitomizes the American dream and the opportunities available in this country. It's something some of us who are native-born can forget, and I certainly have to be careful not to take for granted the opportunities this country offers. So this is a wide-ranging interview talking about the accounting profession, her background in the company as a managing partner, as well as some of her heartwarming, personal story. LINKSShow Notes TranscriptBe a GuestGUEST\n\n\n\nSheila EnriquezAbout Sheila\nSpecial Guest: Sheila Enriquez.","content_html":"Today on the IC-DISC Show, we're talking with Sheila Enriquez, the managing partner of CPA firm Briggs and Veselka here in Houston.
This was a fantastic interview with a really amazing person. Sheila is the first guest I've had who was not born in the USA, and she really epitomizes the American dream and the opportunities available in this country. It's something some of us who are native-born can forget, and I certainly have to be careful not to take for granted the opportunities this country offers.
So this is a wide-ranging interview talking about the accounting profession, her background in the company as a managing partner, as well as some of her heartwarming, personal story.
![](\"https://assets.fireside.fm/file/fireside-images/podcasts/images/d/d61cedee-227d-47c8-8d74-3407972d4afc/guests/8/8b1d8ccb-5197-410c-ba73-7649c0b8a19a/avatar_small.jpg\"){kind=avatar} | \nSheila Enriquez | \n
Special Guest: Sheila Enriquez.
","summary":"Today on the IC-DISC Show, we're talking with Sheila Enriquez, the managing partner of CPA firm Briggs and Veselka here in Houston. This was a fantastic interview with a really amazing person. Sheila is the first guest I've had who was not born in the...","date_published":"2020-07-09T06:00:00.000-05:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/d61cedee-227d-47c8-8d74-3407972d4afc/9087487f-e950-46fa-965e-59689e46778b.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":44652407,"duration_in_seconds":3689}]},{"id":"4fe298c8-3b51-4e8a-9a5d-50a59404ea1a","title":"Ep017: The Opportunity with Dean Jackson","url":"https://www.ic-discshow.com/017","content_text":"Today on the IC-DISC Show, I just wrapped up one of the most interesting interviews I've ever had on the podcast. My guest was Dean Jackson, a real Renaissance entrepreneur who has some really incredible businesses and really great ideas. His company's tagline is 'We help entrepreneurs make more money', and this was a great far-ranging conversation. Dean charges several thousand dollars for one on one consultations, and you can get his wisdom for free today. We talked about some of the really transformative concepts he pioneered, and we also talked about why this Coronavirus shutdown could be the opportunity of a lifetime for a lot of people, but it is their attitude that will ultimately determine whether this was the best thing that could have happened or the worst thing. This episode is full of some really interesting insights. We didn't talk about IC-DISC at all, but it will be incredibly valuable for any entrepreneur or anyone in a role where they're responsible for generating revenue. LINKSShow Notes TranscriptBe a GuestGUEST\n\n\n\nDean JacksonAbout Dean\nSpecial Guest: Dean Jackson.","content_html":"Today on the IC-DISC Show, I just wrapped up one of the most interesting interviews I've ever had on the podcast.
My guest was Dean Jackson, a real Renaissance entrepreneur who has some really incredible businesses and really great ideas.
His company's tagline is 'We help entrepreneurs make more money', and this was a great far-ranging conversation. Dean charges several thousand dollars for one on one consultations, and you can get his wisdom for free today.
We talked about some of the really transformative concepts he pioneered, and we also talked about why this Coronavirus shutdown could be the opportunity of a lifetime for a lot of people, but it is their attitude that will ultimately determine whether this was the best thing that could have happened or the worst thing.
This episode is full of some really interesting insights.
We didn't talk about IC-DISC at all, but it will be incredibly valuable for any entrepreneur or anyone in a role where they're responsible for generating revenue.
![](\"https://assets.fireside.fm/file/fireside-images/podcasts/images/d/d61cedee-227d-47c8-8d74-3407972d4afc/guests/f/fdd0ea86-d6cb-49d7-9bfa-e5ad758a41af/avatar_small.jpg\"){kind=avatar} | \nDean Jackson | \n
Special Guest: Dean Jackson.
","summary":"Today on the IC-DISC Show, I just wrapped up one of the most interesting interviews I've ever had on the podcast. My guest was Dean Jackson, a real Renaissance entrepreneur who has some really incredible businesses and really great ideas.","date_published":"2020-04-14T12:00:00.000-05:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/d61cedee-227d-47c8-8d74-3407972d4afc/1f5e4763-cd51-4c4c-a57a-bee2f7838353.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":40830910,"duration_in_seconds":3355}]},{"id":"b561b470-e694-40ed-a98a-435e012f3ede","title":"Ep016: Wealth With Purpose with Ali Nasser","url":"https://www.ic-discshow.com/016","content_text":"Today on the IC-DISC Show, we're talking with Ali Nasser, who owns a unique, wealth management firm called AltruVista based in Houston, Texas. AltruVista focuses almost exclusively on business owners and helps with the unique challenges business owners face. They have a great process, and there is a lot of useful information in this episode about the common mistakes business owners make, and the different strategies you can implement to avoid these pitfalls. I really enjoyed talking with Ali. They have a strong planning-based approach that's a real strength that comes across in the show.LINKSShow Notes TranscriptBe a GuestGUEST\n\n\n\nAli NasserAbout Ali\nSpecial Guest: Ali Nasser.","content_html":"Today on the IC-DISC Show, we're talking with Ali Nasser, who owns a unique, wealth management firm called AltruVista based in Houston, Texas.
AltruVista focuses almost exclusively on business owners and helps with the unique challenges business owners face.
They have a great process, and there is a lot of useful information in this episode about the common mistakes business owners make, and the different strategies you can implement to avoid these pitfalls.
I really enjoyed talking with Ali. They have a strong planning-based approach that's a real strength that comes across in the show.
![](\"https://assets.fireside.fm/file/fireside-images/podcasts/images/d/d61cedee-227d-47c8-8d74-3407972d4afc/guests/2/27737820-e70d-4900-b8e9-4dacde2eadd8/avatar_small.jpg\"){kind=avatar} | \nAli Nasser | \n
Special Guest: Ali Nasser.
","summary":"Today on the IC-DISC Show, we're talking with Ali Nasser, who owns a unique, wealth management firm called AltruVista based in Houston, Texas. AltruVista focuses almost exclusively on business owners and helps with the unique challenges business owners face.","date_published":"2020-03-10T09:00:00.000-05:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/d61cedee-227d-47c8-8d74-3407972d4afc/7aca9e49-71ae-4957-84e8-9671881d1ef2.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":28963346,"duration_in_seconds":3573}]},{"id":"7ff43bf6-ce74-4445-9e7e-ca8107c1181d","title":"Ep015: A Client's Perspective with Charlie Rowe","url":"https://www.ic-discshow.com/015","content_text":"Today on the IC-DISC Show, we're talking with Charlie Rowe, a former client of ours, who sold their scrap yard four years ago. I've wanted to get Charlie on the show for some time now because he has a really interesting perspective as someone who effectively used an IC-DISC, as well as being an actual client of ours. Because he's now sold his business and is no longer an active client, he's open, transparent, and candid in the show about all the details of the DISC, his relationship with us, the terms of our agreement, and the various aspects of the DISC calculation. It's a very insightful and forthright perspective that he might not have felt as comfortable sharing if he had still owned his business. In the show, we covered his history in the scrap world, the story of his business, his transition as he sold the business, and all of the lessons he learned using the IC-DISC. He's also happy to field any questions about his experience from people considering using our service, or setting up an IC-DISC. His contact details are in the show notes. I really enjoyed this interview. Charlie is a great guy, and there is a lot to take from this episode. LINKSShow Notes TranscriptBe a GuestGUEST\n\n\n\nCharlie RoweAbout Charlie\nSpecial Guest: Charlie Rowe.","content_html":"Today on the IC-DISC Show, we're talking with Charlie Rowe, a former client of ours, who sold their scrap yard four years ago.
I've wanted to get Charlie on the show for some time now because he has a really interesting perspective as someone who effectively used an IC-DISC, as well as being an actual client of ours.
Because he's now sold his business and is no longer an active client, he's open, transparent, and candid in the show about all the details of the DISC, his relationship with us, the terms of our agreement, and the various aspects of the DISC calculation. It's a very insightful and forthright perspective that he might not have felt as comfortable sharing if he had still owned his business.
In the show, we covered his history in the scrap world, the story of his business, his transition as he sold the business, and all of the lessons he learned using the IC-DISC.
He's also happy to field any questions about his experience from people considering using our service, or setting up an IC-DISC. His contact details are in the show notes.
I really enjoyed this interview. Charlie is a great guy, and there is a lot to take from this episode.
![](\"https://a.fireside.fm/assets/default/avatar_thumb-f770911a143e5fd8f69bc8f8038b32f8fa529c671befcf9273e9e7718bf0109c.jpg\"){kind=avatar} | \nCharlie Rowe | \n
Special Guest: Charlie Rowe.
","summary":"Today on the IC-DISC Show, we're talking with Charlie Rowe, a former client of ours, who sold their scrap yard four years ago. I've wanted to get Charlie on the show for some time now because he has a really interesting perspective as someone who very effectively used an IC-DISC.","date_published":"2020-02-26T08:00:00.000-06:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/d61cedee-227d-47c8-8d74-3407972d4afc/56a20624-323b-4e31-9694-d882f236da06.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":17732659,"duration_in_seconds":2101}]},{"id":"8b6deef7-f782-43fd-87a0-8d3949c78f2c","title":"Ep014: A Fair Exchange with Bob Blades","url":"https://www.ic-discshow.com/014","content_text":"Today on the IC-DISC Show, we're talking with Bob Blades, the president of Blades International, a foreign exchange consultancy based in Houston. They have a great niche business in which they act as an advocate for their client to ensure the foreign exchange rates they pay are fair and reasonable. I discovered during the call that it's just the nature of foreign exchange to have a lot of complexity, so they assist their clients in making sense of that complexity. Bob has some great success stories from clients in a variety of different businesses. Although they have historically worked primarily with multi-national Fortune 500 clients, their service is now a viable option even for companies with under a million dollars a year of foreign exchange. Their free analysis is a great way to see the indicative savings you could achieve, and they are a very knowledgeable and enthusiastic group of people to work with. So, I learned a lot about foreign exchange myself. It was a really fun interview, and I hope you enjoy it as much as I did. LINKSShow Notes TranscriptBe a GuestGUEST\n\n\n\nBob BladesAbout Bob\nSpecial Guest: Bob Blades.","content_html":"Today on the IC-DISC Show, we're talking with Bob Blades, the president of Blades International, a foreign exchange consultancy based in Houston.
They have a great niche business in which they act as an advocate for their client to ensure the foreign exchange rates they pay are fair and reasonable.
I discovered during the call that it's just the nature of foreign exchange to have a lot of complexity, so they assist their clients in making sense of that complexity.
Bob has some great success stories from clients in a variety of different businesses. Although they have historically worked primarily with multi-national Fortune 500 clients, their service is now a viable option even for companies with under a million dollars a year of foreign exchange.
Their free analysis is a great way to see the indicative savings you could achieve, and they are a very knowledgeable and enthusiastic group of people to work with.
So, I learned a lot about foreign exchange myself. It was a really fun interview, and I hope you enjoy it as much as I did.
![](\"https://assets.fireside.fm/file/fireside-images/podcasts/images/d/d61cedee-227d-47c8-8d74-3407972d4afc/guests/8/84ff50e4-8220-4b1e-865f-6f6b1e8c73f8/avatar_small.jpg\"){kind=avatar} | \nBob Blades | \n
Special Guest: Bob Blades.
","summary":"Today on the IC-DISC Show, we're talking with Bob Blades, the president of Blades International, a foreign exchange consultancy based in Houston. They have a great niche business in which they act as an advocate for their client to ensure the foreign exchange rates they pay are fair and reasonable.","date_published":"2020-02-13T05:00:00.000-06:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/d61cedee-227d-47c8-8d74-3407972d4afc/1eaf1f28-1347-459a-9fa6-5148c3600185.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":23537623,"duration_in_seconds":2807}]},{"id":"30fb909c-3c7a-44b8-8f60-6fed28c865fb","title":"Ep013: Setting Up for Success with Neal Block and David Berek","url":"https://www.ic-discshow.com/013","content_text":"Today we have a very special episode of the IC-DICS Show. It's special because it's the first time we're speaking with a returning guest and it is the first time that we're talking with two guests. But the most important part is who those guests are. Today we're talking with Neal Block and David Berek of Baker McKenzie. The release date of this episode (1/28/20) is also Neal's last day before he retires after 50 years with the firm; David is Neal's successor. The show was a lot of fun. As you'll remember from Neal's last appearance, his experience gives him a wealth of insights. It was great to get both of their opinions on the different ways to structure an IC-DISC. Even during the show, I took many notes to that I could go back to our clients with new ways of structuring a second and third IC-DISC. So there is a lot of really great information here for you, especially for closely-held family business that are trying to transfer inter-generational wealth as tax-efficiently as possible. For the advisors, the CFOs, and the owners of these types of companies, this episode is worth listening to. I wanted to thank Neal for his time and wish him the best in his next step, and thank David for his insights. I know we'll be hearing from them both again in the future, but for the moment, there is a lot to listen to in this episode. LINKSShow Notes TranscriptBe a GuestGUESTS\n\n\n\nNeal BlockAbout Neil\n\n\n\nDavid BerekAbout David\nSpecial Guests: David Berek and Neal Block.","content_html":"Today we have a very special episode of the IC-DICS Show.
It's special because it's the first time we're speaking with a returning guest and it is the first time that we're talking with two guests. But the most important part is who those guests are.
Today we're talking with Neal Block and David Berek of Baker McKenzie. The release date of this episode (1/28/20) is also Neal's last day before he retires after 50 years with the firm; David is Neal's successor.
The show was a lot of fun. As you'll remember from Neal's last appearance, his experience gives him a wealth of insights. It was great to get both of their opinions on the different ways to structure an IC-DISC. Even during the show, I took many notes to that I could go back to our clients with new ways of structuring a second and third IC-DISC.
So there is a lot of really great information here for you, especially for closely-held family business that are trying to transfer inter-generational wealth as tax-efficiently as possible. For the advisors, the CFOs, and the owners of these types of companies, this episode is worth listening to.
I wanted to thank Neal for his time and wish him the best in his next step, and thank David for his insights. I know we'll be hearing from them both again in the future, but for the moment, there is a lot to listen to in this episode.
![](\"https://assets.fireside.fm/file/fireside-images/podcasts/images/d/d61cedee-227d-47c8-8d74-3407972d4afc/guests/e/e34e0718-1a0e-49aa-a262-f575e132438e/avatar_small.jpg\"){kind=avatar} | \nNeal Block | \n
![](\"https://assets.fireside.fm/file/fireside-images/podcasts/images/d/d61cedee-227d-47c8-8d74-3407972d4afc/guests/9/9beeab28-8aad-4c89-9abf-9e57b28e11f5/avatar_small.jpg\"){kind=avatar} | \nDavid Berek | \n
Special Guests: David Berek and Neal Block.
","summary":"Today we have a very special episode of the IC-DICS Show. We're talking with Neal Block and David Berek of Baker McKenzie, on the day before Neal's last day as he retires after 50 years with the firm, with David taking over as Neal's successor.","date_published":"2020-01-28T11:00:00.000-06:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/d61cedee-227d-47c8-8d74-3407972d4afc/29569d94-3bd6-4e33-8590-98657a6f4c85.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":30115522,"duration_in_seconds":3700}]},{"id":"5d15e5e8-21f2-42d4-8b17-adb9cd85d154","title":"Ep012: A People-First Business with Chris Hanslik","url":"https://www.ic-discshow.com/012","content_text":"Today on the IC-DISC Show, we're talking with Chris Hanslik, the chairman of law firm Boyar Miller in Houston. Boyar Miller has a really different approach to their law practice. They view themselves as entrepreneurs whose service just happens to be the law. This gives them an interesting perspective when serving entrepreneurial companies. They spend a lot of time on culture, which is something I rarely hear from law firms, and in the show we talked about how, taking a page out of Southwest Airlines’ playbook, their focus is primarily on their employees, knowing that their employees will take great care of their clients. All of this helps them create a practice that really supports businesses like ours, and it was interesting to hear Chris's perspective as we go into 2020. LINKSShow Notes TranscriptBe a GuestGUEST\n\n\n\nChris HanslikAbout Chris\nSpecial Guest: Chris Hanslik.","content_html":"Today on the IC-DISC Show, we're talking with Chris Hanslik, the chairman of law firm Boyar Miller in Houston.
Boyar Miller has a really different approach to their law practice. They view themselves as entrepreneurs whose service just happens to be the law. This gives them an interesting perspective when serving entrepreneurial companies.
They spend a lot of time on culture, which is something I rarely hear from law firms, and in the show we talked about how, taking a page out of Southwest Airlines’ playbook, their focus is primarily on their employees, knowing that their employees will take great care of their clients.
All of this helps them create a practice that really supports businesses like ours, and it was interesting to hear Chris's perspective as we go into 2020.
![](\"https://assets.fireside.fm/file/fireside-images/podcasts/images/d/d61cedee-227d-47c8-8d74-3407972d4afc/guests/a/a4027f04-c009-4851-a551-50f544135263/avatar_small.jpg\"){kind=avatar} | \nChris Hanslik | \n
Special Guest: Chris Hanslik.
","summary":"Today on the IC-DISC Show, we're talking with Chris Hanslik, the chairman of law firm Boyar Miller in Houston. Boyar Miller has a really different approach to their law practice. They view themselves as entrepreneurs whose service just happens to be the law.","date_published":"2020-01-14T12:00:00.000-06:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/d61cedee-227d-47c8-8d74-3407972d4afc/639614b3-a8e6-4bd2-a75d-c6db269cebbf.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":25723132,"duration_in_seconds":3168}]},{"id":"74e87f06-734e-4b47-ba62-c4412ccc8cd2","title":"Ep011: Building a Business with John Ryan","url":"https://www.ic-discshow.com/011","content_text":"Today on the IC-DISC Show we're talking with Johnny Ryan, the former CEO of Alexander/Ryan Marine & safety. Johnny was a longtime client of ours until he sold the company to a private equity firm about six years ago, and this was a great interview with a very successful, self-made entrepreneur who really came from nothing to build and sell a very successful company. There are a lot of valuable insights in this episode, as well as some personal stories from Johnny's past. I hope you enjoy listening to this interview as much as I enjoyed recording it.LINKSShow Notes TranscriptBe a GuestGUEST\n\n\n\nJohn RyanAbout John\nSpecial Guest: John Ryan.","content_html":"Today on the IC-DISC Show we're talking with Johnny Ryan, the former CEO of Alexander/Ryan Marine & safety.
Johnny was a longtime client of ours until he sold the company to a private equity firm about six years ago, and this was a great interview with a very successful, self-made entrepreneur who really came from nothing to build and sell a very successful company.
There are a lot of valuable insights in this episode, as well as some personal stories from Johnny's past. I hope you enjoy listening to this interview as much as I enjoyed recording it.
![](\"https://assets.fireside.fm/file/fireside-images/podcasts/images/d/d61cedee-227d-47c8-8d74-3407972d4afc/guests/2/2a5ef98b-b7e4-486c-b392-5e5cdbc0b414/avatar_small.jpg\"){kind=avatar} | \nJohn Ryan | \n
Special Guest: John Ryan.
","summary":"Today on the IC-DISC Show we're talking with Johnny Ryan, the former CEO of Alexander/Ryan Marine & Safety. Johnny was a longtime client of ours until he sold the company to a private equity firm about six years ago, and this was a great interview with a very successful, self-made entrepreneur who really came from nothing to build and sell a very successful company.","date_published":"2019-12-19T11:00:00.000-06:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/d61cedee-227d-47c8-8d74-3407972d4afc/ca0411f8-5c9c-4325-8237-1ecdaea760bf.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":29448750,"duration_in_seconds":3633}]},{"id":"a40bcd0f-eeed-4334-b02a-07dfddff4224","title":"Ep010: Buying or Selling a Firm with Brannon Poe","url":"https://www.ic-discshow.com/010","content_text":"Today on the IC-DISC Show we have a great interview with Brannon Poe, who's company, Poe Group Advisors, facilitates the sale and acquisition of accounting firms. Brannon's thoughts will be of interest to a lot of business owners, but you'll find this particularly interesting if you're a CPA. Poe Group Advisors has sold more than 300 CPA practices over the last decade, and this was a great opportunity to dive into some of the detail in these types of transactions. We had a chance to dispel a lot of the misconceptions around buying or selling a practice, and talk about the interesting point that all-cash offers are not only possible, but preferable, and are becoming more common in this economy. If you've considered buying or selling a practice, or if you've ever wanted to leave your corporate accounting job to be self-employed, this really is a must-listen interview, and a tremendous opportunity to expand your boundaries to see what's possible.LINKSShow Notes TranscriptBe a GuestGUEST\n\n\n\nBrannon PoeAbout Brannon\nSpecial Guest: Brannon Poe.","content_html":"Today on the IC-DISC Show we have a great interview with Brannon Poe, who's company, Poe Group Advisors, facilitates the sale and acquisition of accounting firms.
Brannon's thoughts will be of interest to a lot of business owners, but you'll find this particularly interesting if you're a CPA.
Poe Group Advisors has sold more than 300 CPA practices over the last decade, and this was a great opportunity to dive into some of the detail in these types of transactions. We had a chance to dispel a lot of the misconceptions around buying or selling a practice, and talk about the interesting point that all-cash offers are not only possible, but preferable, and are becoming more common in this economy.
If you've considered buying or selling a practice, or if you've ever wanted to leave your corporate accounting job to be self-employed, this really is a must-listen interview, and a tremendous opportunity to expand your boundaries to see what's possible.
![](\"https://assets.fireside.fm/file/fireside-images/podcasts/images/d/d61cedee-227d-47c8-8d74-3407972d4afc/guests/a/a5a1fcce-ab52-4db1-8b89-f73b9f7da7ff/avatar_small.jpg\"){kind=avatar} | \nBrannon Poe | \n
Special Guest: Brannon Poe.
","summary":"Today on the IC-DISC Show we have a great interview with Brannon Poe, who's company, Poe Group Advisors, facilitates the sale and acquisition of accounting firms.","date_published":"2019-12-03T10:00:00.000-06:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/d61cedee-227d-47c8-8d74-3407972d4afc/44cf0894-5cbc-4087-a4ed-b24a840422d1.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":27855710,"duration_in_seconds":3434}]},{"id":"04118374-0519-45b2-851c-036ebaac94e1","title":"Ep009: The IC-DISC Difference with Cory Jackson","url":"https://www.ic-discshow.com/009","content_text":"Today on the IC-DISC Show we're talking with Cory Jackson, the president of CT Gasket, a company that makes high-end mission-critical gaskets and seals here in Houston, Texas. Cory is the first client we've had on the show. His is a third-generation business. He's a tremendous entrepreneur, and over the 15 years we've worked with him, it's been great to see his incredible success first hand. So this is a wide-ranging conversation. He shares some interesting thoughts on the benefits of an IC-DISC as a client, and even if you're not in the manufacturing business, there are a lot of lessons he's learned, that could be beneficial for your business. \n\nLINKSShow Notes TranscriptBe a GuestGUEST\n\n\n\nCory JacksonAbout Cory\n","content_html":"Today on the IC-DISC Show we're talking with Cory Jackson, the president of CT Gasket, a company that makes high-end mission-critical gaskets and seals here in Houston, Texas.
Cory is the first client we've had on the show. His is a third-generation business. He's a tremendous entrepreneur, and over the 15 years we've worked with him, it's been great to see his incredible success first hand.
So this is a wide-ranging conversation. He shares some interesting thoughts on the benefits of an IC-DISC as a client, and even if you're not in the manufacturing business, there are a lot of lessons he's learned, that could be beneficial for your business.
\n\n![](\"https://assets.fireside.fm/file/fireside-images/podcasts/images/d/d61cedee-227d-47c8-8d74-3407972d4afc/guests/8/8e79e990-43e9-488a-bc70-3bf9e7cd6db5/avatar_small.jpg\"){kind=avatar} | \nCory Jackson | \n
Today on the IC-DISC Show we're talking with Julio Gonzalez, CEO of Engineered Tax Services.
This was a great conversation discussing some of the tax incentives his company specializes in, and it's another example of how you can benefit by working with a company who understands you industry.
With so many specific tax codes, this specialist knowledge can save you many thousands of dollars.
We had a chance today to dive deep today into those tax incentives with an engineering component, and it was great to hear some of Julio's experience.
\n\n![](\"https://assets.fireside.fm/file/fireside-images/podcasts/images/d/d61cedee-227d-47c8-8d74-3407972d4afc/guests/f/f708578d-b9cf-4bb8-82d4-820ff9d7aa0a/avatar_small.jpg\"){kind=avatar} | \nJulio Gonzalez | \n
Special Guest: Julio Gonzalez.
","summary":"Today on the IC-DISC Show we're talking with Julio Gonzalez, CEO of Engineered Tax Services. This was a great conversation discussing some of the tax incentives his company specializes in, and it's another example of how you can benefit by working...","date_published":"2019-10-29T06:00:00.000-05:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/d61cedee-227d-47c8-8d74-3407972d4afc/f6e7d7e4-e53a-4c59-a67a-76605f1f59bc.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":20366711,"duration_in_seconds":2498}]},{"id":"67ac3431e96b4f0b84116b4f1a024813","title":"Ep007: Handling Tax Controversy with Brandon Frenza","url":"https://www.ic-discshow.com/007","content_text":"Today on the IC-DISC Show we're talking with Brandon Frenza of the law firm Cantrell and Cantrell, based in Houston. Brandon's a little younger than most of our guests, and he brings a more youthful perspective, but it's his interesting background that made me want to have him on the show as a guest. He previously worked at the IRS, and his current role is for a law firm that specializes, amongst other tax issues, in handling tax controversy cases. I really enjoyed the interview. He's an interesting guy and this was certainly an interesting conversation that will give you an insight into some of the more unusual IRS situation that can occur. \n\nLINKSShow Notes TranscriptBe a GuestGUEST\n\n\n\nBrandon FrenzaAbout Brandon\nSpecial Guest: Brandon Frenza.","content_html":"Today on the IC-DISC Show we're talking with Brandon Frenza of the law firm Cantrell and Cantrell, based in Houston.
Brandon's a little younger than most of our guests, and he brings a more youthful perspective, but it's his interesting background that made me want to have him on the show as a guest.
He previously worked at the IRS, and his current role is for a law firm that specializes, amongst other tax issues, in handling tax controversy cases.
I really enjoyed the interview. He's an interesting guy and this was certainly an interesting conversation that will give you an insight into some of the more unusual IRS situation that can occur.
\n\n![](\"https://assets.fireside.fm/file/fireside-images/podcasts/images/d/d61cedee-227d-47c8-8d74-3407972d4afc/guests/e/e3013d0a-af24-4579-87eb-1e32f9eb1e34/avatar_small.jpg\"){kind=avatar} | \nBrandon Frenza | \n
Special Guest: Brandon Frenza.
","summary":"Today on the IC-DISC Show we're talking with Brandon Frenza of the law firm Cantrell and Cantrell, based in Houston. Brandon's a little younger than most of our guests, and he brings a more youthful perspective, but it's his interesting background...","date_published":"2019-10-15T14:00:00.000-05:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/d61cedee-227d-47c8-8d74-3407972d4afc/53bb49f5-5800-4b12-adc6-f534e4cfa0f7.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":25196020,"duration_in_seconds":3102}]},{"id":"b166583ed4114a2b9dd22af5b25131e6","title":"Ep006: Increasing Your Bottom Line with Hans Stronck","url":"https://www.ic-discshow.com/006","content_text":"Today on the IC-DISC Show we’re talking with Hans Stronck, from Expense Reduction Analysts. I’ve known Hans for many years and really appreciate the help he’s provided to our clients in the past. I’m excited to be able to share his ideas with you because I know they really can help any company that has $5 million or more in revenue, regardless of whether you export. Hans also created a guide www.ReducedExpenses.com that accompanies the points he talks about today, so if you don't have time to listen to the podcast, I encourage you to head over there and take a look at this great presentation with more detail on the savings strategies he’s suggesting. I know you’ll get a lot from this episode. Hans has helped dozens of our clients save millions of dollars and I'm a big fan of what they do. \n\nLINKSShow Notes TranscriptBe a GuestGUEST\n\n\n\nHans StronckAbout Hans\nSpecial Guest: Hans Stronck.","content_html":"Today on the IC-DISC Show we’re talking with Hans Stronck, from Expense Reduction Analysts.
I’ve known Hans for many years and really appreciate the help he’s provided to our clients in the past. I’m excited to be able to share his ideas with you because I know they really can help any company that has $5 million or more in revenue, regardless of whether you export.
Hans also created a guide www.ReducedExpenses.com that accompanies the points he talks about today, so if you don't have time to listen to the podcast, I encourage you to head over there and take a look at this great presentation with more detail on the savings strategies he’s suggesting.
I know you’ll get a lot from this episode.
Hans has helped dozens of our clients save millions of dollars and I'm a big fan of what they do.
\n\n![](\"https://assets.fireside.fm/file/fireside-images/podcasts/images/d/d61cedee-227d-47c8-8d74-3407972d4afc/guests/a/ab570cce-c70f-4bcb-a64c-124522460a4e/avatar_small.jpg\"){kind=avatar} | \nHans Stronck | \n
Special Guest: Hans Stronck.
","summary":"Today on the IC-DISC Show we’re talking with Hans Stronck, from Expense Reduction Analysts. I’ve known Hans for many years and really appreciate the help he’s provided to our clients in the past. I’m excited to be able to share his ideas with...","date_published":"2019-10-01T06:00:00.000-05:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/d61cedee-227d-47c8-8d74-3407972d4afc/d20294b7-2147-4dfc-ac3f-98f47182400d.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":23314797,"duration_in_seconds":2866}]},{"id":"32697c1502984471aaae3a461bd41a9d","title":"Ep005: The IC-DISC Differentiator with Adam Traweek","url":"https://www.ic-discshow.com/005","content_text":"Today on the IC-DISC Show I had a great conversation with Adam Traweek of Amegy bank in Houston, Texas. As a banker, Adam's able to give us more of a lay person's perspective of the IC-DISC and how he uses it as a potential differentiator when talking to prospective clients. We ended the conversation talking about the IC-DISC from a technical perspective and the different ways a bank can structure client loan documents and loan covenants to encompass an IC-DISC. This was a wide-ranging interview, and I really enjoyed talking to Adam. I think you'll appreciate his bright, down to earth approach too.\n\nLINKSShow Notes TranscriptBe a GuestGUEST\n\n\n\nAdam TraweekAbout Adam\nSpecial Guest: Adam Traweek.","content_html":"Today on the IC-DISC Show I had a great conversation with Adam Traweek of Amegy bank in Houston, Texas.
As a banker, Adam's able to give us more of a lay person's perspective of the IC-DISC and how he uses it as a potential differentiator when talking to prospective clients.
We ended the conversation talking about the IC-DISC from a technical perspective and the different ways a bank can structure client loan documents and loan covenants to encompass an IC-DISC.
This was a wide-ranging interview, and I really enjoyed talking to Adam. I think you'll appreciate his bright, down to earth approach too.
\n\n![](\"https://assets.fireside.fm/file/fireside-images/podcasts/images/d/d61cedee-227d-47c8-8d74-3407972d4afc/guests/f/f0d3fc62-94b0-4ac0-a998-3ac4fb940a57/avatar_small.jpg\"){kind=avatar} | \nAdam Traweek | \n
Special Guest: Adam Traweek.
","summary":"Today on the IC-DISC Show I had a great conversation with Adam Traweek of Amegy bank in Houston, Texas. As a banker, Adam's able to give us more of a lay person's perspective of the IC-DISC and how he uses it as a potential differentiator when talking...","date_published":"2019-09-17T06:00:00.000-05:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/d61cedee-227d-47c8-8d74-3407972d4afc/d0a5c5b2-67d4-4df2-9147-60f3dce77a10.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":26324748,"duration_in_seconds":3243}]},{"id":"d1bbeb4832074da7b002fea1aa0c7e90","title":"Ep004: The First 50-Years with Neal Block","url":"https://www.ic-discshow.com/004","content_text":"Today on the IC-DISC Show I am really excited to have the opportunity to interview Neal Block of Baker & McKenzie. Neal is referred to as the godfather of the IC-DISC. He has been doing IC-DISC work since its inception in 1971, and he really has an amazing background having worked with clients since the start of the program. His breadth of knowledge and experience is fascinating. He's always very engaging to talk to and has story after story to illustrate every example of his IC-DISC work over the last 50 years. I hope you enjoy listening to this interview as much as I enjoyed recording it. It really is a 'must listen' episode.\n\nLINKSShow Notes TranscriptBe a GuestGUEST\n\n\n\nNeal BlockAbout Neal\nSpecial Guest: Neal Block.","content_html":"Today on the IC-DISC Show I am really excited to have the opportunity to interview Neal Block of Baker & McKenzie.
Neal is referred to as the godfather of the IC-DISC. He has been doing IC-DISC work since its inception in 1971, and he really has an amazing background having worked with clients since the start of the program.
His breadth of knowledge and experience is fascinating. He's always very engaging to talk to and has story after story to illustrate every example of his IC-DISC work over the last 50 years.
I hope you enjoy listening to this interview as much as I enjoyed recording it. It really is a 'must listen' episode.
\n\n | \nNeal Block | \n
Special Guest: Neal Block.
","summary":"Today on the IC-DISC Show I am really excited to have the opportunity to interview Neal Block of Baker & McKenzie. Neal is referred to as the godfather of the IC-DISC. He has been doing IC-DISC work since its inception in 1971, and he really has...","date_published":"2019-09-04T07:00:00.000-05:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/d61cedee-227d-47c8-8d74-3407972d4afc/82ecbb5a-93d1-400a-aac0-4e27f4dac522.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":31480885,"duration_in_seconds":3887}]},{"id":"e4f59f2738e34352ba60163687554260","title":"Ep003: Developing a Firm with John Flatowicz","url":"https://www.ic-discshow.com/003","content_text":"Today on the IC-DISC Show we're talking with John Flatowicz, former managing partner of Briggs and Veselka, the largest independent CPA firm in Houston, Texas. John has a great back story, and it was interesting to hear how he joined Briggs and Veselka to start the audit practice at the ripe old age of 26 years old, and about the philosophies he had back then, that he and the firm still have today. Briggs and Veselka are a firm that grew from nine people in 1982 to over 300 people today, and there are a lot of great insights into developing a CPA firm, or really any other client service firm.\n\nLINKSShow Notes TranscriptBe a GuestGUEST\n\n\n\nJohn FlatowiczAbout John\nSpecial Guest: John Flatowicz.","content_html":"Today on the IC-DISC Show we're talking with John Flatowicz, former managing partner of Briggs and Veselka, the largest independent CPA firm in Houston, Texas.
John has a great back story, and it was interesting to hear how he joined Briggs and Veselka to start the audit practice at the ripe old age of 26 years old, and about the philosophies he had back then, that he and the firm still have today.
Briggs and Veselka are a firm that grew from nine people in 1982 to over 300 people today, and there are a lot of great insights into developing a CPA firm, or really any other client service firm.
\n\n![](\"https://assets.fireside.fm/file/fireside-images/podcasts/images/d/d61cedee-227d-47c8-8d74-3407972d4afc/guests/9/93876d7a-1aab-46db-9edf-9e0abee30cf8/avatar_small.jpg\"){kind=avatar} | \nJohn Flatowicz | \n
Special Guest: John Flatowicz.
","summary":"Today on the IC-DISC Show we're talking with John Flatowicz, former managing partner of Briggs and Veselka, the largest independent CPA firm in Houston, Texas. John has a great back story, and it was interesting to hear how he joined Briggs and...","date_published":"2019-08-20T07:00:00.000-05:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/d61cedee-227d-47c8-8d74-3407972d4afc/412ed0d0-76a5-4f0c-bfff-44f45718aa5c.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":54382378,"duration_in_seconds":3737}]},{"id":"782b1fed017c4828a92efb3820a31e19","title":"Ep002: Meril Markley","url":"https://www.ic-discshow.com/002","content_text":"Today on the IC-DISC Show we’re talking with Meril Markley. It’s a great conversation. Merrill has a unique perspective on tax law having previously work on the staff of Congressman Kevin Brady, who was subsequently chairman of the House Ways and means committee. We also talked about the history of tax policy, and how it’s influenced the history of Western civilization in some surprising ways. In particular, the idea that the fall of the Roman empire was due in part, to the tax system at the time. So I think you’re going to enjoy this great, wide ranging conversation with Meril.\n\nLINKSShow Notes TranscriptBe a GuestGUEST\n\n\n\nMeril MarkleyAbout Meril\nSpecial Guest: Meril Markley.","content_html":"Today on the IC-DISC Show we’re talking with Meril Markley.
It’s a great conversation. Merrill has a unique perspective on tax law having previously work on the staff of Congressman Kevin Brady, who was subsequently chairman of the House Ways and means committee.
We also talked about the history of tax policy, and how it’s influenced the history of Western civilization in some surprising ways. In particular, the idea that the fall of the Roman empire was due in part, to the tax system at the time.
So I think you’re going to enjoy this great, wide ranging conversation with Meril.
\n\n | \nMeril Markley | \n
Special Guest: Meril Markley.
","summary":"Today on the IC-DISC Show we’re talking with Meril Markley. It’s a great conversation. Merrill has a unique perspective on tax law having previously work on the staff of Congressman Kevin Brady, who was subsequently chairman of the House Ways and...","date_published":"2019-08-01T15:00:00.000-05:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/d61cedee-227d-47c8-8d74-3407972d4afc/a737cea7-91ff-4a15-9a58-2e461c9cdb12.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":21214307,"duration_in_seconds":2638}]},{"id":"d41f01c0beca4615ba89c74237740794","title":"Ep001: The IC-DISC Show","url":"https://www.ic-discshow.com/001","content_text":"Welcome to the first episode of the IC-DISC Show. I wanted to share this quick introduction with you and set the scene for the shows to come. I'm very excited by this project, and can't wait to share the stories and insights of the fantastic guests we have lined up. In the meantime. If you'd like to be a guest on the show, and share your story, head over to IC-DISCshow.com and follow the 'Be a Guest' link.","content_html":"Welcome to the first episode of the IC-DISC Show.
I wanted to share this quick introduction with you and set the scene for the shows to come.
I'm very excited by this project, and can't wait to share the stories and insights of the fantastic guests we have lined up.
In the meantime. If you'd like to be a guest on the show, and share your story, head over to IC-DISCshow.com and follow the 'Be a Guest' link.
","summary":"Welcome to the first episode of the IC-DISC Show. I wanted to share this quick introduction with you and set the scene for the shows to come. I'm very excited by this project, and can't wait to share the stories and insights of the fantastic guests we...","date_published":"2019-07-30T13:00:00.000-05:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/d61cedee-227d-47c8-8d74-3407972d4afc/4478a501-1100-491a-a2de-4c6452d1da64.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":1599228,"duration_in_seconds":186}]}]}