In this episode of the IC-DISC show, I sit down with Ronak Shah to discuss his transition from a corporate career at Intel to entering the scrap metal business, to founding a successful scrap metal business in New Caney, Texas. We talk about the motivation behind his career shift and the mentors who guided him along the way.
Ronak opens up about the challenges he faced while transitioning from a large corporate environment to a smaller, more hands-on business.
We also explore Ronak's decision to sell his business and the unexpected opportunities that arose from that choice. He reflects on the experiences gained throughout his career, emphasizing the importance of taking calculated risks and adapting to change. His story offers insights into the value of connecting past experiences to current ventures, even when the path isn't always straightforward.
Finally, we discuss navigating today's fast-paced digital world and the importance of maintaining a low profile on social media. Ronak's journey highlights the balance between professional growth and personal fulfillment, making this episode a thoughtful exploration of entrepreneurship and resilience.
SHOW HIGHLIGHTS
- I explore Ronak's remarkable transition from a corporate role at Intel to establishing a successful scrap industry business in New Caney, Texas, emphasizing his desire for more tangible work and the influence of key mentors.
- The episode delves into Ronak's career progression at Schnitzer Steel and Alter Trading, where he gained critical insights in non-ferrous recovery and learned the importance of agile, smaller teams in driving technological advancements.
- Through journaling and introspection, Ronak clarifies his professional desires, leading to the creation of Levitated Metal and reflecting on personal challenges, including his late wife's battle with cancer.
- We discuss the financial strategies Ronak utilized in his entrepreneurial ventures, such as leveraging IC-DISC tax advantages and aligning financial decisions with personal values.
- The conversation highlights Ronak's leadership insights, his decision to pursue a smaller business for personal fulfillment, and the impact of selling his business on both his professional and personal life.
- Ronak shares reflections on his entrepreneurial journey, touching on the lessons learned from his career, the importance of taking risks, and the role of hindsight in connecting the dots of his experiences.
- The episode concludes with a discussion on navigating the complexities of the modern digital landscape and the importance of maintaining a low profile in a rapidly changing social media environment.
Contact Details
LinkedIn - Ronak Shah
LINKS
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Ronak Shah |
TRANSCRIPT
(AI transcript provided as supporting material and may contain errors)
Dave: Hi Ronak, how are you today?
Roank: Good David, Nice to see you again.
Dave: Likewise, and where are you calling into from? Where are you in the world at the moment?
Roank: I'm at my factory in New Caney, Texas, just a little bit northeast of Houston Great.
Dave: Now are you a native Houstonian.
Roank: I'm not, so I moved out here in 2019 to build this factory and start this business. I think I've been to Houston once in the prior year to visit for the first time and never before, other than perhaps through the airport. So, I didn't know a lot about Houston. I'm not saying that I know a lot about Houston now, but it's been a great place to build a business. It's been a fine place for my kids to grow up.
Dave: It's been good it's been a fine place for my kids to grow up. It's still good. Yeah, it's. Uh, it's kind of a, it's kind of a hidden gem in a lot of ways. Uh, you know houston is, it's got a lot going for it that if your only experience is just driving through town or going through the airport, you know, I mean you hear traffic, humidity, heat, urbanl and you're just kind of like, you know, yeah, it doesn't sound like my kind of place.
Roank: Yeah, well, it would be a lot more believable if you did not have a Breckenridge background behind you.
Dave: True, yeah, that is the Breckenridge background for sure. So where did you grow up then, if you didn't grow up in Houston?
Roank: I grew up in upstate New York so my dad was one of the many immigrants that came over in the late 60s, early 70s. They were looking for people with medical training and background. So he came over from India, lived in New York. I was born in New York City but very soon after grew up in the middle of the Finger Lakes. We moved to Syracuse when I was in middle school and then I went to Boston for undergraduate and I bounced kind of between Boston and London and back to Boston, then to Portland, oregon, which is where I came into the scrap industry and lived for some time in St Louis. I lived there for about nine years and from St Louis to here.
Dave: Okay. So what made you get into the scrap business if you didn't have a family history in it?
Roank: Yeah, it was just very random, my interest in the scrap industry.
I think, the truth of the answer is probably the more interesting one. So after mba I was working, I was an operations guy and I was working at intel corporation in portland, near portland oregon, and loved being in portland. It's a fine place to live. But intel was, I mean, a huge company, right, 80 000 people, and just like the process of making something that was about this big, the the size of the core diet, multiprocessor, microprocessor this wasn't sufficiently interesting to me and I was too far from it, as well as my chain organization. Yeah.
It didn't feel tangible enough, and so that was one part of it. But then the other part of it as well was you know I was there as a worker bee, you know, in a reasonably senior job for someone of my age, but then, you know, in a reasonably senior job for someone of my age, but then you know intel was having difficulty. So they bring in bane and company to kind of work on strategy or whatever and so two of the guys that I went to school with that, I knew well, were like literally working literally seven layers in the organization above me, and I'm like what?
and so I just hit that, I tapped out, I extracted, I was like this is just some horse crap. I, this isn't the place for me. I need to go somewhere where I'm, you know, in a, in a smaller pod, where I can really touch and feel a thing. And so I just started throwing resumes out and wound up at Schnitzer Steel. Now really, yeah, and oh really.
Yeah, and it was great. It was a time of transition for Schnitzer. I don't know if it was a great transition time for Schnitzer. They were transitioning from an older style scrap company to a more professional slash corporate company of the style that it is today. So they had parts of the parts of their business were both things and for sure I liked the old thing a lot and just tons of fun being in places like Boston and Portland scrapyard when they were building big mega shredders and new factories and driving the continuous improvement process there and trying to get metrics around things. It was really a good time. I enjoyed a lot of it. I came to Alter Trading in 2010 and that was wonderful right, I owe so much of my career everything I learned everything to the team at Alter, to Jay Rabinovitz and Rob and Michael Goldstein. I learned a lot there. I did a lot of really fun stuff for them that helped transform the company into the highly successful privately owned scrap company it is today.
Dave: Like on the technology side, correct yeah.
Roank: So I built a few factories, non-ferrous recovery plants to process not steel non-ferrous portions of the shredder and extract more metals out of stuff that would otherwise have gone to the landfill. And it was you know, exciting to do that, and it wasn't just building the factories but really growing out the entirety of the division that became, you know, a kind of center of excellence around that function, and it's an area that you know Alter remains very strong in today.
Dave: Okay, well, I am excited to get into the next part of your story. So you're living in St Louis, working at Alter, being involved in some cool stuff and forward thinking technology. So how did from there? How do you end up starting a company in New Caney, texas?
Roank: Yeah, so it's no reason not to be as open and honest about it as possible. So Alter was amazing. For the first six or seven years I was there, the job was like a nine and a half out of 10. I remember I was in New York going to make this time up sometime in 2013 or something like that. I've been there for three years and the Powerball was like some huge number, like a billion dollars, and so me and some buddies that were in finance, we all bought Powerball tickets and we talked about what we would do if we won the money, and I remember I determined to say I don't know if I would necessarily quit my job, right, like I really love what I do. I still think about that today.
Dave: Did any of them have the same thought?
Roank: No, they thought I was just completely crazy and they weren't necessarily wrong. I think I think perhaps again I loved it, but the point of it is I really enjoyed it. It was fulfilling, I had impact, things were changing. All of that when I struggled is as that phase of what Alter needed ended and I needed to move and assist alter with other things, primarily helping them grow a tier of management that had come from the art management level into being the next business leaders of the company. Just, you know, it's kind of standard transition planning type stuff and succession planning. I struggled with doing that successfully, a role that perhaps would have been viable or successful or satisfactory for me to do had it occurred during a standard line management. You know, hierarchical management structure was hard for me to find value in fulfillment, in and I would say success in doing.
Yeah, as a matrix manager, you know, as a, as a guide, as a internal consultant. I just didn't love it. I hate to put it that way. I just sure, sure and at the same time, alter was going through a certain amount of a a ton of growth, right, a lot of growth that I participated in through acquisition and internal growth as well disbanded organic growth. But it was going through a lot of growth and so the company that felt small and familial at 40 yards suddenly felt just large and 70 for me.
Dave: Too much like it felt too much like Intel.
Roank: Nowhere near that level. There's nothing like that. It remains a really effective, well-directed company today.
But, it felt different for me and I also realized that I wasn't good at that bigger company stuff. You know, my way of thinking about things didn't scale successfully to that level. I would not be the right guy at that level and this is an unfortunate thing to say. But I chose to. I did not want to change. You know, I thought about so.
My boss for many years there was Jay Rabinowitz, who was, until he retired recently, the CEO of Alter Trade. He was fascinating. His ability to grow into the mindset required, the management rank that he was in at the time, or growing into, was phenomenal. And so a guy that if you only knew him 30 years ago was a rough and tumble scrap guy was and you've seen him on podcasts and things like that. It became and presents fully as and fills the shoes of a methodical, thoughtful, mature and a CEO who does a great job of leading A 1,200, 1,500 person organization. You would have never thought that if you only knew him 25 years ago perhaps, but his ability to grow was really phenomenal. For, by choice or by capability or whatever it was, I did not have or want that and so I wanted something dramatically smaller.
Dave: Okay.
Roank: And so I spent a bunch of time not just thinking about it but literally journaling about it. Because when you just think about these type of problems in your mind like hey, what do I want to do professionally? Yeah, you can just ping pong in your brain. And what I found helped me through the process was writing it down. And if you remember, back in high school, your English teacher would tell you to you know write a draft of the story, or an outline, and then a draft and then the final essay.
I mean, I don't know about you, but I would never do any of that crap. But I did this time and I found that, like the first draft was, you know, just vomit on a page of orally thought out concepts and beliefs. And so I wrote it again and it was clear. And I wrote it again, it was clear. It helped me really understand what I liked and didn't like and what I wanted and didn't want from the next phase. And it was a time when, you know, my kids were just about to graduate middle school. If I was ever going to leave St Louis, this was the time to do it.
It was not going to be easy. It was not easy for them to leave St Louis, but that's when. That's how I made that choice. I was uncertain as to what I would do. Right, I was out there both looking at shredder yards to buy as well as businesses. To start, I looked at a wire chopping plant. I ultimately built a heavy media plant. I did look at and made successful offers on a couple of different shredders, but none of that actually panned out and in the end I raised a bunch of money, moved out to Houston, built this thing.
Dave: That is a great story and your kids ended up adjusting okay to, because I believe you live in one of the really nice master plan communities around Houston.
Roank: Yeah, and they've adjusted well. I think my son is glad that we moved down here. My daughter is a little bit on the fence, but she was younger when we moved. Both my wife my late wife and I in many ways would have probably preferred where we lived in.
Dave: St Louis, it was a small town in Kirkwood.
Roank: You're familiar with it, but here it's been great. The Woodlands is a, you know, magical little bubble of a place to live. It's got everything you need. It's 25 minutes to the factory. All of it has been, from that perspective, just fine. When my wife got cancer, we were right here at MD Anderson. You know a lot of that stuff worked out.
Dave: That is great. So tell me what your business premise was for Levitated Metal. So maybe give just a little background. What does the company do?
Roank: Sure, so we're a heavy media flotation platform. What we do is we buy a thing called Sorba and we make aluminum Twitch. But stepping back from that to people that don't know what any of those words mean, our suppliers are the largest scrap metal processors in the region. Right, the states who will buy something like an old 2008 ford 500 sedan that's at the end of its life, yeah, shred it into fist size and smaller pieces, extract all the steel out with a magnet and then extract all the other metals like aluminum from the engine, copper, brass zinc, die, cast through other technologies. That aluminum, copper, brass zinc all is mixed up together in little pieces in a giant pile and that product is called a made up word Zorba by the industry. They make lots of it inside of houston.
probably 15 million pounds to 18 million pounds of it is made every month right I buy that it's useless the way it is because you can't melt it, because it's got too many different types of metals in it and it doesn't make a useful alloy. But if you can get the aluminum out, that aluminum is super valuable because that aluminum you know used to be the engine block of a old car. It's a pretty tight chemistry match to the alloy required for the engine block of a ford f-150 a 2005. So through a density flotation process using water and ferrosilicon, we can change the density of that water so we can actually float the aluminum out.
Dave: Hence the name levitated.
Roank: Yeah, it's not a novel technology. I buy the equipment from some dude in Italy. There are well over 100 of these kind of plants in the world, maybe a little less than a dozen when levitators started up in the united states and a very what it sounds like a simple process is a royal pain in the rear. That actually managed because it's a very analog system with all sorts of weird chemistry and other things involved and a challenging plant to rot. But you know, we do a pretty decent job of it.
Dave: Now, why did you pick New Caney, texas? I've been to St Louis, in fact, I was just there last month. They appear to have plenty of land around that place, you know, especially across the river in uh, is that illinois? That's just east so why? Didn't you just buy some land and do it up there?
Roank: so where these plants, where the competitive plants exist, are relatively close to where their consumers, the aluminum smelters that would buy the recycled aluminum, are, and that's generally already in that area. So there are plenty of plants in that area.
Dave: Okay.
Roank: Down here in Houston. What was the case when I chose to move down here it became very quickly not the case, because two other people also built plants was that there was a large market in Mexico that did not have access to this type of material because there were no media plants in Texas or along the Mexican border. And aluminum manufacture in Mexico was growing incredibly well, much like the rest of their economy, and so what I saw was a consumer need right mexican heavy media plants, a set of suppliers in the texas area that did not have a domestic buyer for their zorba and so good supplier footprint and, at the time, a relative lack of competition. But I didn't realize. So, like two months after the financial raise was done and everything like that was, there were in fact, two more plants that were in the process of being built. They both started, you know, six to 12 months after mine did not so far away.
There's one up near dallas, there's one up in arkansas so it became a little bit more competitive, though in truth that has not really changed the calculus on anything in a great way. It hasn't really improved the deal too much.
Dave: Okay, and it was you started with, just a green field, right?
Roank: Yeah, it was some trees and dirt and 10 acres. It was some trees and dirt and 10 acres and I started with dirt work and stormwater and concrete and buildings and equipment and built the whole thing.
Dave: What year did you?
Roank: start COVID 2020. Oh, it was the heck of a time.
Dave: That was the construction was during COVID yeah. And when did you open?
Roank: Then we started processing. At the end of December we shipped our first 2020 and we started shipping material in full January 2021.
Dave: Oh wow, that really was in the midst of COVID. It was Most of it wasn't?
Roank: that big a deal. There was some delay in equipment delivery because it came from Italy, and so if anybody had a rougher time COVID wise, it was Italy. So it came from Italy, and so if anybody had a rougher time COVID-wise, it was Italy.
So it came from Italy but that might have only cost us a couple months. What was really frustrating and challenging and ultimately we were able to get through it was simply the difficulty of bringing process experts from Europe to the US during the COVID timeline. You know, like I can't tell you how many voicemails I left at the US embassy in Milan to sorry the US consulate in Milan to try to, you know, accelerate the review of the visa for the texts to come in from Italy, but I can tell you how many times somebody probably listened to it with zero, so just a royal pain in the rear. You know, just because the pain in the rear to get that all done, it got done. But those were challenging times.
Dave: So started January of 2021 and, uh, at the time, had you given any thought to how long you might want to, that you and your investor group might want to run the business or own the business? Did you have any thought when you started it about what I honestly thought? I?
Roank: would run it and own it for like nearly 10, 15 years years and grow it over time and continue to be in the space, et cetera, et cetera. It was meant to be a longer term cashflow, not one necessarily built on an exit strategy of selling at some point in the future. That was the original intent.
Dave: How did that-year plan end up working out for you?
Roank: Well, it turned out to be much shorter than that. So, as it turned out, in 2023, we had an unsolicited offer from Murfrees Industries to purchase the business assets.
Dave: Wow, just two years later.
Roank: Yeah, two years of operation later. Yeah, and for a number of reasons, it was the right choice for me and my investors to do the sale and it's been absolutely phenomenally good, I think, for both sides.
The transaction itself, you know, from my perspective, great because you know it was an accelerated exit, but an exit nevertheless, and it still gives me the opportunity to continue to do the same job in the same office every day that I really enjoy doing that. I find great fulfillment and mental stimulation and sense of purpose in without the undeniable and underestimated stress of being a business owner.
Dave: Yeah.
Roank: So that's been absolutely great. It occurred at a time when my wife was battling cancer and took a lot of stress off. Taking that business stress off the table Sure Just made it easier to get through that entire process. Yeah, and it's just been a good. I think it's been fun for everybody. You know Adam and Michael Mervis were the you know fourth generation. Perhaps Adam and Michael Mervis we're the fourth generation perhaps owners of Mervis Industries enjoy having the levitated team in their company. We enjoy being part of it. Both of us have to do better together. It's been really just great.
Dave: That is awesome, because not all transactions work out that well.
Roank: Yeah, I'm sure there's some number out there that I would have sold the company at, knowing full well that I would not have wanted to work there afterwards. I'm sure there is, but I'm glad I didn't have to.
Dave: Because you were I'm guessing you were the. Were you a minority shareholder? Did your? I was a minority shareholder.
Roank: Oh, you were the majority, okay.
Dave: So it was ultimately your call Correct and your but the the deal clicked, checked all the boxes and and were your investors disappointed that they were going to lose their cash flowing business.
Roank: No, they were very pleased with the cash they got all up front. They were fine. That is great. Coincidentally, I did this math when we were doing the sale. I think that the net result of it was the same.
Dave: IRR or plus or minus one within 1% of the IRR.
Roank: That was in the financial presentation for the business itself. Really, yeah, very unexpected. Yeah, again, nothing more than a coincidence yeah what do you, what do you enjoy most?
enjoy the most about the business is building and growing things. What I have realized is that is not sufficient to be a great leader. Right, there's building and growing things. A great leader right, there's building and growing things. But there's also all the other things that a leader should gain and find value in a business that I'm just not personally built to enjoy nearly as much. Right, I enjoy growing the skillset for the people that work for me. I enjoy seeing them be successful, but I don't think I enjoy it as much as I really should, or that a leader really should. In many ways, I think what I've discovered is I almost enjoy being an individual contributor more than.
I enjoy being a leader and in in many ways, that's why I enjoy being at such a small company. Right, yeah, here the leadership I have to do is very direct. It's in the office, with people that are no more than 15 feet away from me right now. It's a very old style of working. You, you know, I have one remote employee and thank God she is very self-directed and capable and intelligent and proactive about reaching out to me, because otherwise she would be really disappointed and I would suck at that job. And so when we talk about you know what do we like about the job? I enjoy the improving of things. I enjoy the new thing to be done. That is not as much of it's not that much of running a business as you would want it to be. Sure, it's not like about a small business, though are just the variety of stuff I get to do I wear slightly fewer hats now than I did before the acquisition, but I was the CFO.
I was, unfortunately, the lead IT guy, even though portions of these functions were outsourced as well. I sold all the metals. Having never sold a pound of metal in my life prior to levitated metals, I sold all the amount and then I was the president. I was the lead on any plant improvement projects of great size that we had again support throughout the organization on all these little pieces. But that's a lot of little hats to wear okay, okay.
That a bigger company would have a head underneath every one of those hats. Sure, so I enjoy being able to do the breadth of those activities. I think it's rare that people can do the breadth of those activities. You and I talk about ICDIS stuff all the time and I would wager at a level that maybe less than five company owners that you interact with are able to discuss the situation. Is that probably correct, or am I? I think it's probably less than three yeah.
Dave: And I can't think of who the other two are, so you might be in a class of your own.
Roank: Yeah, I enjoy that thing right when I think about things that I would have been in a different life. Perhaps tax accountant could be one of those. But man, this is a very different life than tax accountant.
Dave: Yeah for sure I think you made the right call. Well, as we're kind of rounding the home stretch, I've just got a few more questions. One is when you were leaving Intel, if you had a time machine, or maybe right after you left Intel and you had a time machine that you could go back and have a conversation with the younger Ronak 20 years ago, what might you have told yourself? What advice might you have had?
Roank: or wisdom that you might've wanted to share. I don't think I would've shared anything.
Dave: No, wouldn't want to, but I would've wanted that.
Roank: With the exception my wife's death, there is not a single thing that I would have changed that is a you're.
Dave: I asked that question on my guest and you're probably the only one who's ever answered it that way.
Roank: So I would say, yeah, what type of things do people say? Oh, you know the number one, because I'm not just saying that because I don't want to watch other podcasts, I just yeah, well, no, I can give give you the rundown.
Dave: The most common answer is they wish they would have taken a risk sooner. They wish they would have started their company sooner. They wish they'd been more willing to take a chance. Now, granted, many of my guests are self-made first-generation entrepreneurs like you know, are, you know, self-made first generation entrepreneurs like you are meaning? You know they formed the company, but some of them may have worked at other companies. In hindsight they realize, oh, I should have done this five years sooner, you know it. Just, it would have only been better if I'd done it five years. That's kind of. The most common answer is just, they wish they'd played it less safe. You know, they wish they'd taken, you know, more risks in college. They wish they. That's kind of the most. But that one is consistent with what most people say near the end of their life they don't regret the things they did, they regret the things they didn't do. So that tends to be the answer. But that, to me, is a really good. That's a really good answer for somebody who's pretty content with where their life is.
Roank: Yeah, other than you know your wife, obviously, and I see what everybody else describes, but I feel that everything I did, I was learning something that became foundationally valuable.
Dave: Yeah.
Roank: You know there was a period of time I got laid off from Schnitzer in early 2009. And I didn't start up at Alter Trading until, you know, about a year later. But I did some consulting in the middle for a wonderful company, Steel Pacific Recycling in Vancouver Island, Victoria, British Columbia, and I was there for three months and it was a magical time because we were there in the wintertime. The whole family moved up. My kids were very young. We had an apartment right in Victoria. I rode a bicycle to work to the scrapyard.
But I did a bunch of really interesting financial cost accounting structure set up that helped them understand their business better and those were super useful skills when I had to do a chart of accounts setup for levitated metals. We were able to slice and dice our financials. You know extremely well and I don't know if I would have used an erp system nearly as well as I do here had I not had all those little formative experience things in the end I think for me at least.
I don't feel like I had a lot of wasted years throughout any of that time I learned steve jobs, as you say.
Dave: Steve jobs has the saying that you can only connect the dots when you look backwards, that at the time you can't. It's not like you had some grand plan, I'm guessing you know when you left intel. It just you know. Because steve talks about. He took this calligraphy class that he audited in college and, uh, you know, and that influenced everything at apple design and fonts and and other stuff that it only makes sense looking back so that's.
Roank: That's interesting. Yeah, I can. I can see that, and it is hard to connect the dots until yeah until you look back so.
Dave: So here's kind of a fun one. I think you've been a like me, you're a. Well, I consider myself a naturalized texan. My wife's a native texan, so, uh, you know, if you you know. So you're also a non-native texan, but I think you've been here long enough for this question. Tex-mex or barbecue.
Roank: Barbecue makes me fall asleep. I'm not saying Tex-Mex, I've always loved Tex-Mex. So yeah, we've got some great barbecue. Actually, right near the plant Rusty Buckle is some great barbecue. Near my house is Corkscrew, which just got a Michelin star, which.
Dave: Oh nice.
Roank: Yeah, which I still struggle to understand how that all plays out. But Texas I guess you get a star. But I love me some Lupe Torquillo yeah yeah, I am with you.
Dave: Well, is there anything I didn't ask you or we didn't talk about that you wish we had or we should have?
Roank: No, but I'll do you a favor and I'll plug a little bit the IC disc. I know that's not the goal of this podcast, but it is why we know each other. Yeah, so I'll tell this story if I may. Yeah, absolutely, the IC disc and levitated metals.
Yeah absolutely, yeah, absolutely, disc and levitated metals. So I called you on my birthday, three months before I, a little bit before I sold the company, and I had talked to you many times previous to that about setting up an icy disc. We, like many scrap companies, are well suited to the icyDIS because the profile of our sales are high margin exports and lower margin domestic sales, and the value of, as a pass-through entity, being able to translate ordinary income into dividend income, has great benefits to the investors of a company.
I think there's probably some advantages, even if you're a C-corp, but you can detail that kind of At most. I think there's probably some advantages, even if you're a C-corp, but you can detail that kind of stuff out. I don't really know.
Dave: Sure. What was?
Roank: interesting when we talked about it is I was in the process of selling the company and when you sell a company that's done a bunch of bonus depreciation because it built a big factory, there's always depreciation recapture that shows up as ordinary income at the time of the sale and so whatever normal ordinary income there would have been that year it was going to be much, much higher because we would have clawed back a ton of depreciation.
I put a recapture on depreciation. It's ordinary income. We, like many scrap companies again, have an IC discable kind of amount of headroom of income translation from ordinary income to dividend income Well in excess of the ordinary income we normally make in any particular year, and so, like most scrap companies, there should be no reason to pay ordinary income tax.
Dave: Right.
Roank: Again, most scrap companies that are Nazi corpse or whatever. But in the year of the sale, all that extra headroom suddenly became valuable because I was going to have this abnormal ordinary income from the depreciation recapture, and so what would have been X million dollars of ordinary income that would have turned to dividend income wound up being something like 2.5, x, yeah, all of which I was able to use because I had so much ordinary income, yeah.
And your shareholders as well. Yes, absolutely yes, I and my shareholders. And that was phenomenal. And then on top of it, I think I got to. The ICDIS lets you defer some of that dividend income into the following year. So just sat there in our bank accounts making 5% or whatever we chose to do with that money for another year more than a year, excuse me. Just truly phenomenal. The impact of the ICDIS in my space. Not an easy thing to kind of think through. You and I were just spitballing stuff. We popped it up as an option. You had to go back and think about it, but it looks like it works. And I don't know if you have done it before.
Dave: No, yeah, it was just such a unique fact and it was mostly because of how new the business was. Right, if the business had been open for 10 years, we would have started the IC desk probably in year four or five it was coming, and then you would have been using it and then you would have had that transaction, the depreciation recapture, and it would have given you a bigger benefit. It would have happened anyway. It was just your circumstances were so unique is how it all fell out, and I doubt we'll ever see that. That circumstances, because it's so rare to start a business and sell it so quickly, you know I think the takeaway of it is the one.
Roank: So one of the takeaways I have from this is I should have started the ICS earlier, because of the bonus depreciation as a startup of the company and the complete depreciation of the entire factory. In the first year, I and investors had a ton of NOL and net operating losses that were just going to take a while to turn into a cumulative net gain and before that happened we sold the company. I was planning on doing an IC disc in 2024, I think was my expected timeline, which is when we would have clicked over to a game and then suddenly there would have been income that I wanted to translate over into dividend income. But I really should have just done it before into dividend income but I really should have just done it before.
Dave: So the question I should have asked you was if you could go back in time two years and do anything different. Give any advice to yourself. What would it have been? I mean, it's a joke, right? You would have said start the ICDISC sooner.
Roank: The real advice I would have given would have been understand how your NOLs work so that you can do a donor advice fund for the ordinary income you thought you were going to. But outside of that, in truth it's a minor esoteric thing that doesn't really matter.
Dave: And so, since you brought it up I rarely talk about this. Since you brought it up, just a couple quick questions. One, because the cpa firm you use actually has some icdisk expertise and you know you could have used them. So do you recall what aspect of our I remind you.
Roank: Yeah, because you're, I see this guy. Okay, and the thing that I was talking about felt esoteric enough that I didn't want to click just on a cheap bastard. I didn't want to click over, you know.
CPA for billable hours while they tried to figure it out and roll me in a show or something like that. That's not how I want to play now, but the truth is I just needed something done quick and fast because every day that I waited to do the icy disc was another day of revenues that I couldn't utilize. And the second reason is, you know there's a time there's time it takes to create an icy disc and set it up and all that kind of stuff. You have that down to a science and had a method to kind of quickly get me rolling on it. While you and I both know you made a bunch of money on that transaction for a couple of years of work on it, it was completely worth it to me and a very satisfying business and personal relationship that tested both of our intellectual capabilities to kind of put together and work on. I enjoyed doing it right, like when we talk about what we enjoy and work.
Dave: Yeah, that was a fun thing it was, yeah, no, it was for me too, because so yeah, so few of my clients, you know, know, have that much interest, you know, getting into the weeds there, and it caused me to think of some things I hadn't thought about in this. And again, since you brought it up, in the experience, you know, the team was the responsiveness Good, I mean, was the? Is the experience been positive?
Oh yeah, it's been great, yeah what about coordinating with your CPA firm, because sometimes a CPA firm who has an ICDIS practice will sometimes say things like yeah, but it'll be more seamless if it's all under one umbrella right. Umbrella right, I mean, it's the. Did you get the sense that? That it created a lot of of extra work by the cpa firm, or that balls got dropped because you didn't have one entity doing it all?
Roank: I don't think I got that sense, because the cpa firm is made up of multiple people too. That, oh, it's a good point, right? I mean, it's not like the ICDISC person is the CPA that you're working with, right?
Dave: You know, I hadn't thought about that, and you're right, and there's some level of communication that is required regardless.
Roank: Yeah, and that.
Dave: IC-DISC practice, if I recall, for that particular firm. I think it's out of a different office.
Roank: Anyway, I don't think, even if they were next to each other right which are of course not next to each other because they all work remote Even if they were next to each other, still two people having to talk, and so there's still coordination that has to happen, and you know what you're talking about. In the end. There is enough esoterica on optimizing the ICDISC usage, that especially trying to maximize the ICDISC capability that I don't think others really understand and not all of them need to understand it. But what I mean by that is for many companies they can just use the stupid simple approach for doing ICDISC and it'll still let them translate all the income they have right.
In my particular case, it was important to look at the transaction by transaction optimization capability of the ICDISC in order to fully utilize and maximize the amount of income I could translate to dividend income. I use shared logic as my ERP system. There is literally an ICDISC button that creates the report that you care about.
Dave: Right, and so that's one of the benefits of not to interrupt you, but people ask me because, like my, our IC disc business is almost impossible to sell. In fact your CPA firm even talked to me a few years ago about buying the ICDIS practice. The problem is we're not very sellable. We have a huge, we have a concentration risk because it's all tied to one part of the tax code. So they wanted to discount that, or they would have wanted if the conversation on that far. And the second problem is I'm a craftsman, I have the primary relationship with all of the clients. So they would have made me stay around for three or five years and I'm like you know and it would have been tied to some kind of an earn out because they're going to say well, what if the IC just goes away next year? You know we want you to basically keep some of that risk. So I don't know what got me off on this tangent of that risk.
Roank: So I don't know what got me off on this tangent. I hear you, and I've thought about that question on your behalf as well, because from my perspective I think your job is kind of interesting and fun. Right, you get to visit a lot of different scrap yards, talk to a bunch of different scrap dudes about a thing you're very knowledgeable about that you know really could trans dramatically improve their financial position, and yet it's still a tough sell. Right, it should be like selling. You know it's not like selling ice cream to eskimos, and yet sometimes it probably feels that way.
It is that way, yeah, yeah, and also the question of how to. Because you have a couple of people, I think that work for you, right, at least?
Dave: one, yeah, yeah, there's a whole team, yeah.
Roank: And so, yes, if IC-DISC went away, it would be I don't know what else you guys do, but pretty close to the end of the company and that's a rough gig. And you know, the low-grade communist in me certainly is shocked, shocked by all the awesome and incredible tax code optimization tools that exist for business owners tools that exist for business owners.
Dave: I mean between the IC-DISC, new market tax credits opportunity zones right Bonus appreciation just it's Cost segregation, research-.
Roank: Absolutely phenomenal, right, I am now a W2 employee like a putz, you know it's just phenomenal. But if that went away then, yeah, this does die. It's a really difficult thing to try to sell, right. It's the type of thing that, I don't know, if you can't keep some level of skin in the game or risk on it. It feels like the type of thing that if you have the right person in the organization that could be the face, should be kind of employee acquired in some capacity.
Dave: Well, and that opportunity exists Some of my partners, I mean I have a standing offer to basically sell my part of the business and in many ways are you familiar with the inside.
Roank: I am the.
Dave: There's a deep dive of tax yeah, yeah, the structure for us I've already looked at it just doesn't. It doesn't really, it's not not the right fit, but yeah, I thought this thing.
You know the funny thing about the disc it's been around since 1972, but it's been quote going, going away since 1973. So I've been doing this 20 years, and I thought I might have five years before this went away or there was a change. But the key, though, is that and that's true the concentration risk is there, but on the flip side, there's also a premium. You get a specialization premium that comes along with it. It's the reason if you look at a lawyer, the more specialized they are, the higher their billing rate, and so there's a premium that comes with that specialization.
I know what I was going to say, and then I doubled down further where we have a concentration of risk within the scrap metal industry. But the benefit of that, though, is that when I show up to a scrap metal conference, I'm the only one there talking about IC disc, and I'm the one that well, a scrap guy introduced us. I mean, in fact, I won't mention him by name, but I call him my best unpaid salesman. He's referred as multiple clients. For a variety of reasons, they don't use us, but he's still a big fan of uh, of the work we do. So, yeah, and then the. Finally, there's this concept that has not caught on with a lot of americans. But there's this concept of saving Like you don't have to spend all your income in any given year, so there is this concept of you can make money, put it away and then, if the business goes away, you have this thing called like a nest egg, or you know.
So People should think about it, yeah, but yeah my clients, my clients who I have a relationship with, that's. Oftentimes they'll ask me hey, dave, I'm a little worried about you, like as a friend, what happens if the IC disc goes away and I'm like I'll just spend more time there? That's what will happen.
Roank: If it makes you feel better, I don't worry about you. I just think it's a very interesting company sale situation. I just think it's a very interesting company sale situation. Yeah, and you know, when you look at the environment today, you could be a tweet away from getting doged. Yeah, yeah, exactly yeah. So one of the you know, keep your head down and stay quiet, kind of things which appears to be the standard business approach to today's situation.
Dave: It does seem to be.
Roank: Well, hey Ronak.
Dave: I can't believe how fast the time has floated. This has been a blast. I really appreciate it and I hope you have a great afternoon. Thank you, it's good to talk to you.