The biggest opportunities often sit in the work everyone else is afraid to touch.
In this episode of the IC-DISC Show, I sit down with Scott Abels, a CPA and business valuation specialist in Austin, to talk about why he built his practice around estate, trust, and gift valuations, the one area most professionals avoid.
Scott spent 25 years in corporate finance at Dell and Motorola before launching his own firm. He moved from CFO consulting into valuation, then narrowed further into estate and trust work, an area with its own IRS code sections, examination rates above 20% on large estates, and the highest error rate he's seen. He walked through the landmines, retained rights and marketability discounts among them, where a single mistake can wipe out a client's discounts entirely.
What struck me was his case for getting the valuation expert in during planning, not after, when it's often too late to fix anything. The same logic shows up in his turnaround standard of 30 to 45 days and the dozen questions he tells attorneys to ask before hiring anyone.
Scott also revealed a project he'd been quietly working on, a plain-English book for Texas attorneys, and his answer for how the busiest professionals actually want to be helped.
SHOW HIGHLIGHTS
- * The riches really are in the niches: narrowing from CFO work to a field with fewer than 10 true specialists turned a commodity service into a moat.
- * The IRS examines large estates more than 20% of the time, because it knows that's where taxpayers try to avoid taxes, so the valuation has to hold up.
- * Get your valuation expert involved during estate planning, not after; retained rights and other landmines often can't be fixed once the structure is set.
- * A buy-sell agreement signed and executed perfectly still won't bind the IRS, which weighs economic reality over legal form every time.
- * Overstep on discounts and the penalty isn't just losing them; the IRS can throw out your whole valuation and re-value with no discounts at all.
- * Before hiring a valuation pro, ask their guaranteed turnaround time and whether they offer audit defense; vague answers signal it's a side service, not their focus.
Contact Details
LinkedIn - Scott Abels
LINKS
About IC-DISC Alliance
About ETG Valuations
(AI transcript provided as supporting material and may contain errors)
Dave:
Good morning, Scott. Welcome to the podcast.
Scott:
Thanks, Dave. Thanks for having me. I'm looking forward to visiting with you.
Dave:
Sure. So where are you located today? What part of the world are you calling into from today?
Scott:
I'm in Austin, Texas. Cloudy, Austin, Texas this morning and just up the road from you a bit.
Dave:
Okay, well, that sounds good. So I've been really excited to have you on here. You were a guest a while back. You've kind of had some updates that I want to talk about. So why don't we just talk out.
Scott:
Talk.
Dave:
Give me a little bit of your background, you know, where are you from, what you're, you know, how'd you get to this point in your career?
Scott:
Sure. So I'm a Texas boy, born and raised. Went off to college, majored in accounting, got my accounting degree at the University of Houston and went, went straight into industry. Got my CPA shortly after. After I graduated and went into industry. And I spent about 25 years in what I call corporate America. Dell, Motorola, in corporate finance. And you know, most of my background is running a business division of a larger business. So it's really understanding how businesses work, how the day to day operation works, how's. How does the business model work from a financial perspective? Because I did that for about 25 years. Started my own consulting business about 15 years ago now.
Dave:
Okay.
Scott:
Initially, I started out as a CFO consultant, just kind of using the things that I learned in corporate America for smaller businesses in the. Mainly in the Austin area. And really quickly I, I had a client early on who needed help with business valuation, wanted to buy out a minority partner, and so I went away and got the valuation credential, the cva. It's essentially a CPA for business valuation.
Dave:
Okay.
Scott:
And I did a couple of these business valuations and I realized several things really quickly, Dave. I realized that these are like business valuation is like a puzzle. It's like a little business puzzle. And it's just perfectly suited to my background in understanding how businesses work. So I really, I like the work and it's well suited to my background. Other things I realized is as a CFO in Austin, I'm probably one of a thousand. Lots of competition, really. A commoditized service at the time that I started out, probably still is. As a business valuation professional, though, I'm probably one of 15 or 20. Okay. And there's probably only, you know, there's probably fewer than 10 of those that specialize and do nothing but business valuation. It's much more of a niche and you know, Much more of a specialized industry. And it just was a great fit with my background. So that's where I am today. I'm specialized in business valuation. And, you know, my background as a CPA and in corporate America has really kind of lent itself well to what I do currently.
Dave:
Okay. No, I appreciate that oversight. And, you know, my business is somewhat similar that, you know, there's a saying the riches are in the niches, and I'm convinced. But I find most professionals don't have the courage to really truly focus on a niche because to say yes to the niche, you have to say no to everything else. And so I really respect, you know, niching know, you know, kind of highly focused on the valuation. But then it sounds like you've done. You've decided to niche even further. So talk to me about that. I see what's in your background. I assume that's got something to do with does.
Scott:
It does. And you know, Dave, I'd like to tell you that I planned this whole thing out and that it was all this, you know, deep thought and yeah, this business research and everything else. But it really just has kind of evolved along the way, you know, from doing CFO work, which is pretty broad, to. To doing business. Valuation was, you know, really a specialization move there. But it made sense for my background and it was a, you know, a good opportunity based on. On, you know, what my skill set was and what I found now after doing valuations for several years is that one area that I think has the, you know, maybe a greater need than any other is estate trust and gift valuations. And, you know, the reason, there's really three reasons that I can think of. One is that it's. It has its own specialized IRS rules and regulations for estate trust and gift. So it's almost like there's every other valuation and then there's estate trust and gift that has its own specialized code sections, and it's very different from typical valuations. Another reason is that the IRS really scrutinizes estate, trust and gift valuations more than any other. So, for example, large estates, they are examined greater than 20% of the time when their returns are. Their tax returns are. That's a really high examination rate. And the reason is because the IRS knows that there's ways in there that taxpayers can avoid taxes. And so, as you might imagine, the IRS is not a big fan of taxpayers avoiding taxes. So they're going to examine those, especially the big estates. So specialized rules. The IRS loves to look at these. And the last reason is this is an area that, where evaluation folks make mistakes probably more than any other is what my research has told me. You know, it cries out for somebody to really specialize in this kind of work. And because, like I said, just because not everybody can do this. The problem is a lot of folks try to do this as a one off. And that's where we really end up hearing the horror stories about how the IRS picks these things apart. So for me, where a lot of people see this as an area of risk they don't want to touch. It's an area that I run to because it, you know, again with my specialization in this area, it allows me to work in the here and to see it as a real opportunity to serve clients better than what they might normally get from their, from their okay CPA or from, you know, from many other valuation professionals.
Dave:
Yeah, and I suppose it's a little bit like you, like a generalist valuation person. Doing a state trust or gift valuation is a little bit like a corporate attorney who really is great at corporate work. M and a contract work. And then they have a buddy who says, hey, we need to do this, we need to set up some, you know, this is this trust and we need to do some gift work. And the attorney says, yeah, sure, no problem. Right? I mean, technically they're qualified, right. They're a member of the state bar, they have a law degree. And so, you know, and the IRS recognizes that degree. But is it kind of a similar thing where you just, people just don't know what they don't know?
Scott:
It is. And I just look back to when I started doing these, I didn't know about all of the different code sections either. I wasn't doing these things at the time. And when I started doing these a few years ago, I realized, you know, some of the specialized knowledge and code sections that you have, and after doing them for a number of years now, I think I realized it even more. And it just is, it's a flashpoint area for the irs. They know that there is a lot of potential to go in here and claw back revenue because of things like discounts and retained rights. Things that don't come up in normal, you know, discounts come up in normal valuations, but not the way they do in estate and trust and gift valuations. And it's a, it's an area where you can, you know, clients can take advantage of the rules to save themselves significant taxes, but if they don't do it properly or if they, if they overstep the penalties are huge. So not only do they lose what they thought they had in discounts, for example, but the IRS may completely invalidate their whole valuation and go back and value it for them with no discounts. So the penalties are huge here. Which, again, I think is a reason that I see this as a huge opportunity to help clients navigate what is really a minefield here. It's a, it's an opportunity, but it can potentially be a huge downside if it's not done properly. And being able to offer that kind of specialized knowledge, I think is very valuable to clients and especially to their attorney partners.
Dave:
Yeah, I can understand that. And, you know, is this is when you get, when you pick up valuation clients in this space, is it like it was in the. When you're doing general value valuations where you just get a call from somebody out of the blue and they say, hey, Scott, you know, I've got this trust set up and I need evaluation done. Is that how the clients come to you? Is it just the actual end user calling you, or does it come to you some other mechanism?
Scott:
So it's. The short answer is no. It's seldom the end user because the end users don't usually know what they don't know. Right. They are reliant upon an attorney. So in almost every case it's going to be in a state and trust attorney who's going to recognize there's a triggering event where they need to get evaluation done and they'll reach out to me or to another valuation professional at that point in time. And so that's where the whole process usually starts. Interestingly enough, what I share with estate and trust attorneys when I visit with them, have a coffee shop conversation, is that it's even better, more advantageous to them and their clients to get their valuation person, regardless of who that is, to get them involved on the planning side way at the beginning of this, when the estate and trust attorney is putting together the whole, you know, the whole package of here's what we're going to do, here's the way we're going to set these things up, and here's how it's all going to flow. Because, you know, sometimes what we find is we do that valuation way later, way after the estate planning has been done, and we find these issues like retained, retained rights, for example, it's too late, then there's nothing else we can do. It's already, it's going to do, you know, it's going to, it's going to be a negative for the clients at that point. Whereas if we had been involved on the front end of the planning in this thing, we might have been able to say, hey, look, the IRS is going to look at that and they're going to disallow that as far as a tax advantage goes. So let's find a different way, you know, to work around that. But all that work, regardless, it comes in through attorneys or their CPAs. Client CPAs. Attorneys and CPAs who have business owner clients who experience a triggering event. And that's how we get involved.
Dave:
Yeah. And I know, I know that attorneys get a bad rap in certain circles, but I know that you and I, one, you know, we've known each other a while and one thing we each have in common is we, I think in a different life, either or both of us could have very well gone to law school, practice law. I know you have a brother who's an attorney, but I think early in your professional career, I think you had an insight into the legal profession that I think helped develop that appreciation for the profession. Is that right? So tell me about that. I know there's a story, but I really don't remember much about it.
Scott:
So you've been digging into my background here, Dave, I can tell. And you've done a good job. So early on. You're exactly right. Early on, I was from a small town in Texas called Bay City, about an hour and a half southwest of Houston there, and small town. And I worked for an attorney who was a family friend, a well known guy in the community. We knew him from church and like family and everything, and he was kind enough to let me work for him as a small one man office during the summer and during breaks and I got exposure to the legal profession like, like you could never get today, you know, here I am, a kid in college, don't have, I don't have any kind of legal skills or background or anything, but. But the one thing I was curious and willing to kind of jump in and wanted to learn stuff. And the attorney's name was Lynn Grebe. He was a general practitioner. So I got to see estate, trust wills, I got to see general business stuff. I got to see divorces, real estate, even did some small criminal defense stuff. So he's a generalist.
Dave:
Yeah. Small town, you kind of have to be.
Scott:
Right, exactly. So I went to the courthouse and filed suits and filed documents. I did some legal research, some, you know, lightweight legal research, but. And I listened, you know, I drafted documents for him and I just, I got to spend a lot of time with this guy. He was very generous. And as a one man office, I had access to him on a, you know, on a, you know, full day basis. So I got to see how he thinks, I got to see how attorneys work, I got to see how the legal profession works. And what I figured out was it really is, it's a very logical thinking kind of, you know, of a practice of a work. And, and it just thought, hey, you know, I, I like this. It's logical, it makes sense, Communication is really big. And I was always a good writer and I was just kind of drawn to that work. And I got to see again how a law office works early on. And Lynn was really a, was a professional role model for me. My parents were not professionals, business professionals. So he was, early on he was a role model for me as to how you conduct yourself, how you run a business. And, and I just really, you know, kept a lot of those things that I learned from him early on. And so I, you know, when I got out of college, got my cpa, when I started my own business working with attorneys, it was, it was kind of a natural, comfortable throwback for me, Remembering how law offices work, remembering how attorneys think, the time pressures, the schedules, all of those things that go in with being attorneys. It was kind of a, like I said, a natural return to some of those things for me. The other thing you didn't mention is, you're right, I've got a brother who's an attorney, I've got a son who's an attorney. You know, I can't do lawyer jokes anymore. I'm not allowed to do those without really offending family members. I've learned to, I've learned to huddle with attorneys on a regular basis at home and at work. Yeah.
Dave:
And the other thing that I've noticed About attorneys and CPAs is that, and I think it's part of what motivates them professionally. And when I tell this to attorneys and CPAs, they kind of all shucks, downplay it, but they really are, in many situations, they're a hero, they're a superhero to their clients. They are either saving them from a dire circumstance like, you know, the client was audited and they have to come in and clean up, or they were sued or they're doing planning that, that really relies on that. And I think one of the things that I especially appreciate about attorneys is they are this in some ways, you know, they're right up there, I think, with the cpa and you can make a case of which one is the more trusted advisor and maybe depends on the circumstances. But I've noticed the attorneys I've met, they really relish that fiduciary duty to their clients. They don't take it lightly. And they really are about the big picture and especially on the estate and trust side. I mean, they're doing work that, that's going to survive them and they're, they have to have a long term focus and a patience and a discipline and they have to be willing to push back on the client and say, yeah, I know it's helpful if we value this business at $5 million, but come on, Charlie, this business is worth $40 million. So maybe we can get some discount, you know, and maybe make it valued at 30 or 35 million. But we can't value it 5 million. And if we do, we're just asking for trouble.
Scott:
So anyway, that's kind of been my
Dave:
experience of working with attorneys. How has yours been? Have you had a similar experience?
Scott:
Yeah, and I go back to Lynn, Lynn Grievy, the attorney that I worked for. You just explained exactly the relationship that Lynn had with his clients. You know, these people looked up to him as a, you know, one of the, one of the towers of the community. He really was the guy that, that, you know, that looked out for the, you know, the common man in, in many ways, like you said. So he really was, you know, just a great figure in the little small town when I was there. And so many of the attorneys that I work with now, and especially estate and trust attorneys, Dave, as I work with these folks and, and I know a number of them and you know, and speak with them on a regular basis, even when we're not working on a particular evaluation case. And they are, like you said, they are not just doing a service for that client, they are doing something for that client's children and grandchildren oftentimes. And the clients are trusting these attorneys, especially the estate and trust attorneys, to know this mountain of regulation and to understand how to help them navigate based on their, their particular circumstances, something that's going to survive them and their children and maybe down to their grandchildren. So I agree with you. Most attorneys that I know relish what it is that they do because they can do something that not everyone can do for those clients and they love making clients happy.
Dave:
Yeah, yeah, that's certainly been my experience as well. Well, why don't we dive just a little bit more into the estate and trust and valuation discount. What are some other, like, if there's an estate attorney Listening to this, what are some other things that maybe they're not familiar with? As far as landmines or opportunities on the valuation side? What are some other things that come to mind?
Scott:
You know, it's interesting that you, that you mentioned that there's several IRS code sections that deal with very specialized rules. And so we actually, you know, have done some research to find out what are the rules that most often trip up, you know, attorneys and their clients. And we recently put together a white paper that I've shared with a lot of my trust and estate attorney friends of some of the, in this case, the six top things that tend to trip up attorneys and their clients. And it's, you know, it's things like treating a family buy sell agreement as fair market value. Just because you prepare a buy sell agreement and you go through the formal documents and have everyone sign it and you say, hey, here's what the value of our LLC is going to be. Just because you've done everything properly legally doesn't mean that the IRS is going to accept that. The IRS looks at the economic reality over the legal form. So just because you say, you know, hey, we gave this property away, you know, from this client, this client, you know, gave this property away, and so it's not included at his estate, the IRS looks at it differently and they say, okay, you gave it away, but you gave it away two days before you died. You know, this is almost, it's not, you weren't really looking to give this stuff away. You're looking to avoid taxes to your estate, right? Or let's say that the client says, hey, I'm giving away this, this, this business interest, you know, to my kids, but I'm retaining the right to, to make dividends, you know, from that business interest. The IRS looks at that and says, you're like, we call that retained rights. The IRS says, hey, you're retaining, you know, certain rights to that business that suggests that you still control it. So guess what? That business interest, you know, for $30 million that you said you gave away is not part of your estate. You effectively kept that. We're going to pull that back into your estate now and you're going to owe us taxes on that. And you've got a huge estate. So this means that your marginal tax rate on that business is, you know, it's astronomical. So, so those are some of the types of things. But it's, you know, it's knowing specialized rules like, you know, retained rights. It's another area where the IRS really gets folks is in discounts.
Dave:
Okay.
Scott:
Oftentimes. So discounts are a legal tool to use to represent a market reality. And so let me just give you an example there. You know, we have what we call a marketability discount that we can take on a business interest. And what that means is I can't turn this into cash very easily. A marketability discount shows the market reality that my privately held business, if I wanted to liquidate it, it would take me some amount of time and probably a lot of time, probably many months to liquidated. And therefore a, an informed investor would pay me less for that. They would discount that.
Dave:
That's a, sooner you want to close, the bigger the discount.
Scott:
Right?
Dave:
I mean, if you went to an arm's length transaction, that said, I have this $50 million business that would normally require a year of due diligence and you say to them, what will you give me to close on this business in one month? Well, they naturally are going to put a huge discount on that to account for the fact that they're having to skip their normal due diligence to offset their risk.
Scott:
Yeah, it really is a risk and return thing, is what these discounts represent, but it represents a market reality. Okay. What you can't do, though, what the IRS really frowns on is when maybe, let's say it's a CPA or somebody who only does valuations part time and they, you know, they're going to go look and they're going to say, oh, okay, for, for this type of asset, the average marketability discount is 35%. So boom, there we go. We're going to put 35% on it. They don't bother to explain it in the report because there's nothing to explain. They just went and found the market average. And the IRS is going to say, absolutely not. The discount needs to reflect the market reality of what's going on here. And, and using an average is not acceptable. And there's tons of court cases that show this. Now, if you went, for example, and found a court case with an asset that was very similar to yours, and they took a 50% marketability discount because of certain market realities with that business, and you and your business was very similar and had the same set of facts and circumstances, you might be able to take a 50% discount, but you've used a court case or you've used, you know, solid reasoning for how you did that. You didn't just take an average. So discounts are a huge area that the IRS loves to attack. And then like I said, the Last thing, really is the overriding theme in so many of these estate, trust and gift rules of the IRS is valuing the economic reality over the legal form. So just because you say that you gave something away, if you retain the right and use, you know, the ability to use it and to enjoy it and to have certain rights, the IRS says, I don't care that you've got a legal document that's signed. You didn't really give away those, those things from an economic perspective. And so you lose your discount and we're going to hit you where it hurts, which is in tax dollars. So that's what makes, you know, this area of specialization, you know, so difficult for a lot of folks. You don't want somebody who dabbles in this stuff. You really need to know these rules and to have dealt with them and to be experienced in this.
Dave:
So that's a really interesting point on the discount because, and I guess it's because these are related party transactions is what causes the scrutiny. Because if you have a $50 million business and you have a unrelated third party and they strike a deal to buy the business for $25 million and that's what everybody agrees to, then that's the price. And there's really no way for any other entity, a government body, a bank, anyone else, to really question it. Or conversely, if they're. A bidding war happens and that $50 million business sells for $100 million, that the contract governs it. As long as, you know, it meets the elements of a contract, that contract is valid. And it just strikes me that I could see somebody being tripped up on this because like you said, they could have all the I's dotted, the T's crossed, it being notarized, being signed by all the parties, I could see all that happening. And it seems like that $50 million business that you valued at $25 million, on the surface, everybody may think, hey, we're in great shape, I's dotted, T's crossed, everybody signed it, we had it notarized, we signed in a fancy office, everybody was sober, we're good. So is that, is it the related party aspect that creates the nuance and the difference?
Scott:
That. That is a big part of it. So in estate trust work, we're talking about, you know, it's clients that are doing things for themselves that often involves their family members or close friends. And so that's exactly what it is. So if, like you said, if, you know, a sale to an unrelated third party, that's market value, unless there's something else going on under the table. Otherwise, it's, by definition, it's what the market would pay and, you know, a buyer who doesn't have to buy and a seller who doesn't have to sell. But when you're doing these things, when you're gifting something to your children or to your spouse and you're assigning a value to that, it's a much different story, right? Because now it's, that's a family member or a person that's close to you. And you know, the real thing here, that that's, that that causes the friction, Dave, is that, you know, IRS rules allow people to take advantage of certain things to pay less taxes. There's certain things you can do. You can take discounts. The thing is, you can't take, you can't just willy nilly take discounts. They have to be properly supported and they have to be market based. And, and unfortunately, those things are not clear and objective. It's like, okay, you get, you do 1, 2, 3. And it works perfectly every time, right? There's a lot of subjective knowledge that goes into this, but at the end of the day, it needs to make sense to the irs. And they make the assumption they're at, they're adverse from us, right? From us and our clients. And their assumption is this thing is probably wrong unless you can prove to me that it's right. And that may not seem fair, but oftentimes that's kind of the way it is with the valuation. So it's really important to prepare that valuation from the perspective of, I'm expecting that the IRS is going to ask me these questions and they're going to push on me on these areas. And so I want this report to be so clear, when they look at it, it's like, okay, well, I see what he did. I may not fully agree with it, but what he did was reasonable and he didn't take any crazy positions. As opposed to just doing a standard valuation where you don't really speak specifically to some of those issues. You leave those areas of interpretation open for the irs and they're going to take advantage of that every time because they've done way more of these than our client has. Right?
Dave:
Well, I couldn't. But I always thought that once you did the valuation, you were done, you washed your hands of it. You said, hey, that's it, we got this crazy 80% discount. I'm done, I've washed my hands of this, and I never am going to be asked about this again. Is that how it goes.
Scott:
And I'm sure that you're being facetious when you ask that question. That's how it goes with some evaluation professionals, unfortunately. But that's not how it goes at atg. The way that we do these things, when we do evaluation like this, we always offer what we call audit defense. And you know, what that means, is that if the IRS picks this thing up and does a first line of examination of this, we're going to represent you. Whether that means sitting down with him face to face or answering emails or getting on a zoom call, we're going to defend our work. And so we're going to talk to the IRS and say, hey, look, here's what we did. Here's why we did it. And, you know, the IRS doesn't always have to agree with you. That's okay. They may not agree with you on everything. They probably won't. But as long as you. As long as you can clearly explain and it makes sense from a market perspective, you're going to be okay. And so when we prepare these things, we know that we are going to be having to explain this to the IRS potentially, and that's the perspective that we take. You know, one of the things we. That we typically say is we think like the irs, before the IRS ever shows up, we're thinking like, okay, what are the questions that they're going to ask? What are the areas that we need to really do? Make sure that we've got this thing perfectly buttoned up and prepare that. Like, we're going to sit down with an IRS agent who's angry and hasn't had his coffee on that day. And so we do that in advance for every one of these, knowing that we're going to. That we're going to be. That we're going to be on the hook if they examine this thing? And so we're never. We don't ever leave the client, you know, hung out to dry. It's like, okay, I do see that from time to time where clients come and they've got a. They've got evaluation, or their attorney comes and says, hey, we got this valuation. And it seemed really great, but the IRS has got all these questions about this 80% discount, and we don't know how to answer them. And we can do what we can do to try to, you know, to try to help the situation. We can't fix those things that, that, you know, if it's. If they've taken. If somebody else has taken a position that's not defensible. Not a whole lot we can do, but hopefully what we can do is just to help to, you know, to smooth it as much as possible or to prepare the client in advance for, you know, for what is likely to happen here is oftentimes what we do.
Dave:
Well, it sounds like your approach is more thorough and probably takes more time than just, you know, somebody who, you know, has some boilerplate language. They do 10 minutes of research, they say the average discount for this industry should be 40%. They plug it in, they have a five page report and they say that's that. You know, is this one of those things of you, you get what you pay for? It is.
Scott:
It is. It definitely takes more time for us to do it the way that we do it, which is building that report, assuming that the IRS is going to ask us questions, takes more time and it costs the client a little bit more to do that. But the downside is such that it more than pays for itself. If you think about it, we're, you know, I talk with the clients, with attorney referral partners about this. Where would you rather your client be? Would you rather them be elated about that 80% discount that they got that is not defensible? Or would you. Are you still going to be there when the IRS examines this? They got a 1 in 5 chance of examining it. Are you going to want to be there when you have to give them the bad news that the IRS disallowed the discount? And the problem is, Dave, that if the valuation is off significantly, the IRS doesn't just say, oh, no, that's not 80, it should have been 50%. So we're just going to take the delta. They look at it and they say, it's 80, it should have been 35. You guys screwed this up so bad that we're going to disallow the whole discount. And oh, by the way, that other discount that you took to, you took a control discount, it's automatically disallowed too, because you have so egregiously misstated this. And they can take the final step of saying, we're going to disallow the whole valuation here. We're going to set the value and you don't get any discount. So that's the absolute worst that could happen. But think about it. When they disallow that, that big discount that you've promised your client, and they've probably put the money in the bank and maybe even spent it, now you got to go back and say, hey, we don't. Not only do we not get that. That 50 or 80% discount, but you got to turn around and pay taxes on that whole amount. And, you know, for these larger estates, it could be millions of dollars. It's oftentimes. It's always thousands, hundreds of thousands, oftentimes millions of dollars that the client didn't think they were going to have to pay. They were super happy when they got that really cheap valuation. But. But it's like, okay, would you have paid, you know, 25 or 30% more for the valuation if. If you would have known that it was going to save you this whole debacle?
Dave:
Yeah. We're talking thousands of dollars in additional fees versus millions or tens of millions of dollars of tax exposure.
Scott:
Absolutely. That. That is potentially it. So I have never seen a case where, when the IRS reviews these things, where the incremental fee, you know, that the client, you know, would have paid is more than the, you know, the exposure that they have to the irs. It's always, you know, a multiple of that. So that, you know, the easy way to say it is there's huge downside here. And a lot of times, if it's a big estate and, you know, and there's some thorny issues involved, it makes much more sense to go ahead and get these things done right the first time.
Dave:
Okay. And, I mean, I. I know a lot of attorneys and some of the estate planning attorneys I know just getting ready for this call, I'd asked them, like, what are some of their frustrations with valuations? And one of the things they said is just re. Is responsiveness. They said, there are some firms out there. They said, you know, we're kind of under the gun. We brought the valuation person in too late, and they need three months to do this valuation. And, you know, sometimes it's a part of a large bureaucratic organization, and it's just, you know, there's just that. And my sense is that you all, being a boutique firm, focused purely on this, I'm guessing you have service options where you can turn things around more responsively than, you know, months. Is that true?
Scott:
Yeah, that is absolutely, Dave. You know, our standard Turnaround is usually 30 to 45 days. Oh, wow.
Dave:
Okay.
Scott:
You know, for an estate trust or gift valuation. And we, you know, we don't. As part of our standard package, we don't offer it quicker than that. We can deliver sooner than that. But of course, it's going to be an additional fee if you wait till the last minute. Yeah.
Dave:
You're paying overtime for your team and
Scott:
all somebody's got to sleep less when we do this thing and somebody has to sleep less.
Dave:
And, and that's what they're paying for.
Scott:
They're paying for those hours of sleep that they missed. But, but you know, Dave, I put together for, for some of my referral partners, I put together a list of 11 or 12 questions that, that they should ask or that they should think about when they're looking for a valuation professional. And this is one of them. You know, you know, one of the questions is do you have the, do you have evaluation credentials? Some of those are easy, but you know, another question is what's your turnaround time on these things? And, and if they say, oh, it's, you know, 60 days, 90 days, we don't know. Those are all signs that either they don't know what they're doing and you know, it's a crapshoot as to how long it's going to take them or they're busy. The valuation is not really their primary line of business. Oftentimes it's happened with CPA firms. Tax, tax or audit is their primary focus. Yeah, maybe the two or three folks that do business valuation part time are slammed with tax deadlines. And so, yeah, so if you call
Dave:
them in late January, good luck in getting anything done before May.
Scott:
I have this happen all the time where clients, you know, they don't get any responsiveness during tax season because they, their CPA or you know, a well known firm here in town who may have evaluation person or two that do this stuff. They can't get to it because their primary focus is tax or audit. And even worse is when the clients have questions about evaluation that their CPA firm valuation department did and they can't get anybody to call them back because they're slammed with deadlines. So just, it's another good reason why, you know, I encourage clients or referral partners to ask about those things on the front end. You know, what's your turnaround time? And you know, do you have a guaranteed turnaround time? Do you have, do you offer audit defense if you don't, why, you know, with the big firms, with the, you know, the large regional or national firms, the reason they don't is because they don't have to. They can afford to charge you whatever they want.
Dave:
Sure.
Scott:
But you know, but attorneys should ask those questions up front when they're interviewing potential valuation professionals. Ask those questions and you know, get answers on those things beforehand so that you're not, you know, three months later waiting to get that information.
Dave:
And yeah, it really sounds like you really could be a great resource for estate attorneys. You know, have you ever thought about writing a book or something geared. Sorry, I should have waited for you to finish your drinking coffee. Have you ever thought about writing a book like, geared specifically toward estate planning attorneys on some things they might need to know about valuation in the estate, trust and gift valuation world? Have you even thought about it, Scott?
Scott:
You know, we should have done the Tonight show together. You could be Ed McMahon and I could be Johnny Carson or Vice, but. Yeah, you're kind enough to bring that up, Dave. Actually, I have just recently written a book. It's actually in print now. I just. I just yesterday, probably two or three weeks away from having copies in my hand. And the name of the book is Business Valuation A Plain English Guide for Texas Attorneys. Oh, wow.
Dave:
Okay.
Scott:
It's exactly what it sounds like. It's written in plain English. There's no technical jargon, no acronyms, no mathematical formulas or anything else. What we did was, you know, we wrote a book that. That answers the questions that attorneys have most often. Do I need evaluation? Does it need to be certified? What are the landmines I should look out for? Is there certain terms that I need to understand in order to be conversant in this? That's what we've done. We've written a book. I go around meeting attorneys on a regular basis, as we do, networking, like we all do, and meet them oftentimes in a coffee shop. I call those coffee shop conversations, where it's just a casual conversation with an attorney, and he may. He or she may bring up a. An issue, you know, a specific issue they have with a client or something, and we can just. It's just a casual conversation. And that's what I want this book to be, is I want it to be like a coffee shop conversation where we can just. We can talk about, you know, the basic questions that they need to know. They don't need to know how to do a DCF calculation or a capitalization of earnings. They don't need to worry about what multiples are or anything else they need to know. They just need to have their basic questions answered so they can advise that client properly. Do we need to get an expert involved or do we not? And that's what we've done with this book, and I'm very excited about it and looking forward to.
Dave:
Yeah. So by the time this episode goes live, I expect your book will be out. And, you know, it's funny, in my niche tax arena of the IC Disc. I always tell our clients and advisors because they always kind of get overwhelmed with the details and the nuances, and they're trying to make sure they remember it. And every year, the same controller has the same question year after year, and they feel bad about it because, like, Dave, I know I asked you about this last year, and I'm asking you again, and I always tell them, I say, hey, look, I deal with this 365 days a year. You deal with it one day a year. And I. And in fact, I just had this call with a client yesterday, and I said, kayla, all you need to know about the IC disc is my phone number. And I'd argue that's all the attorneys need to know. They just need Scott's phone number, because all the other pieces you can take care of.
Scott:
Absolutely, Absolutely. And that's, you know, that's why I wrote the book, was just to. To be able to be a simple guide, you know, for attorneys to say, what do I do next? What are the questions that I need to. That I've got, and what do I need to do next?
Dave:
And.
Scott:
And you're right. Ideally, let me worry about the details, and I can take them through those details and as much, you know, take as much time as they would like. But ultimately, usually when I deal with attorney referral partners, they're just looking for that. That basic guidance. What do we need to do here? What should I look out for? Those types of things. So it's the approach you take with your clients? Yeah. No.
Dave:
So even though the book is really geared toward the attorney, if you. If the attorney had a client who was, you know, like, say, an engineer, you tend to be detail oriented and is really pushing back. And they say, well, my research says I should be able to get a 70% discount on this. Now, would the book be written in simple enough terms? That attorney could give a copy to a client who's detail oriented to at least cause the client to say, okay, all right, I get it. It's more complicated than I thought. So do you think it's plain language enough for a business owner or somebody, A client of a c. Of an estate attorney?
Scott:
Yes. The short answer is yes, Dave. I wrote it specifically for attorneys because those are the folks that I talk to the most often, and they're the primary referral partners, the primary point of contact I have when valuation issues come up for a client. But, you know, this book, you know, it would be very helpful for attorneys, CPAs, wealth planners, or the top folks that would find this thing Interesting. And. And it really is written in simple, easy to understand terms. And it covers some of the primary reasons why they might need evaluation. Things like M and A, estate and trust, divorce, business disputes, or IP valuations. And it gives just the basic questions that they need to understand to be conversant enough to know what they need to do next. And I give some very simple but practical examples for most of the issues. Most of the questions that I answer in there, I give simple examples. Here's an example of how this works or how it worked in the past with a client so that they can quickly and easily consume the things that they need to figure out. What are the next steps here? So there. No, no CPA is going to sit down with this book and say, okay, this is going to teach me everything I need to know to do evaluation. It's not meant for those folks. There's plenty of those out there that are written by people, you know, that have every detail in it.
Dave:
Yeah, textbook type.
Scott:
Exactly. This is really meant to be just a reference guide, a place to, to guide you so that you can figure out the next steps.
Dave:
Okay, well, hey. Well, Scott, I think this has been your second time on the podcast. It's been even more fun the second time. As we wrap up here, is there anything I didn't ask you that you wish I had?
Scott:
I wish you would ask me about my dog, Buddy, my office mate here, but otherwise, I, you know, I. There's nothing that really comes to mind that I could think of, honestly. I think we had a really good discussion about these issues. And, you know, the main thing I would leave you with and your audience with is I enjoy, you know, talking about this. This is, like you said, this is what I do seven days a week. And anytime that somebody has a question about evaluation, especially the state trust and gift valuations, I'm always happy. It's easy to find my contact information on LinkedIn and I'm always happy to have a conversation and, and if I can't help, you know, the person, then I can always point them in the right direction. Happy to be a resource for you, for your clients, for anybody who's got a question. Happy to do that.
Dave:
And just curious, do you, like, charge for a preliminary conversation like that?
Scott:
We never charge until the. And unless the client decides to engage us to do the work. So all my conversations are free up front. And, and that's, you know, that's just the way that we do business is we can give you honest information and have that, that, you know, simple conversation with you up front so that you're armed with what you need to make that, well, awesome.
Dave:
Well, Scott, this has been a lot of fun. Best of luck in the release of your book. I'm looking forward to getting a copy of it.
Scott:
Thank you, Dave. It's been a pleasure to be on with you again. I appreciate the opportunity.
Dave:
All right. Hey, you have a great day, buddy.
Scott:
Thanks.